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Vive La France !!!!!

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  • #91
    Re: Vive La France !!!!!

    Originally posted by Sip View Post
    No no I do agree with you here. I am NOT advocating letting guards down against Turks. They and those who continue to deny the truth are scum and the lowest forms of life there is no question about it. I have never wavered from my stance that Turks should be held accountable for their actions (and continued denial). I think the only nuance here is I am against censoring their denial as opposed to holding them accountable for the actual actions. The real issue is what they did and not what they say today. What they say is entirely irrelevant as the truth is the truth and more than adequately documented and no mater how much they deny it will not change.
    Lifted from Genocide Watch website....The 8 stages of Genocide.

    "8. DENIAL is the eighth stage that always follows a genocide. It is among the surest indicators of further genocidal massacres.
    The perpetrators of genocide dig up the mass graves, burn the bodies, try to cover up the evidence and intimidate the witnesses. They deny that they committed any crimes, and often blame what happened on the victims. They block investigations of the crimes, and continue to govern until driven from power by force, when they flee into exile. There they remain with impunity, like Pol Pot or Idi Amin, unless they are captured and a tribunal is established to try them. The response to denial is punishment by an international tribunal or national courts. There the evidence can be heard, and the perpetrators punished. Tribunals like the Yugoslav or Rwanda Tribunals, or an international tribunal to try the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia, or an International Criminal Court may not deter the worst genocidal killers. But with the political will to arrest and prosecute them, some may be brought to justice."

    My bold & italics.

    You see Sip, it does matter what they say and their denial has led to physical as well as psychological continuation.

    Comment

    • #92
      Re: Vive La France !!!!!

      Originally posted by Sip View Post
      Do you want to pass laws against those who still think God made the Earth 5000 years ago or that those that think the Earth is flat?
      Huge difference between FAITH and FACTS.

      Originally posted by Sip View Post
      How many countries have to pass resolutions and affirmations and how many academics have to go on the record until a topic is put to rest?
      Put the topic to rest ???
      Without justice ?

      Originally posted by Sip View Post
      The debate has been settled for a very very long time.
      No it has not.
      Obviously for you it has.
      Politics is not about the pursuit of morality nor what's right or wrong
      Its about self interest at personal and national level often at odds with the above.
      Great politicians pursue the National interest and small politicians personal interests

      Comment

      • #93
        Re: Vive La France !!!!!

        Originally posted by Sip View Post
        Do you want to pass laws against those who still think God made the Earth 5000 years ago or that those that think the Earth is flat? Of course not. At some point you stop bickering and arguing topics that have been beat to death. How many countries have to pass resolutions and affirmations and how many academics have to go on the record until a topic is put to rest? If you criminalize the opposing view, you are doing more of an injustice to the truth and that implies the facts alone aren't enough.

        In this case, there is NO debate. The debate has been settled for a very very long time. Of course the Turks will deny it (who is really surprised by that?). The question is what now. What do we want? I don't see any specific proposals other than Turkey has to admit blah blah ... well who cares if they admit? The question is given the undisputed truth, what next?
        Londontsi, Sip appears to trivialise the AG and puts it in a category of topics which could include : "What did you do last summer?". Surely that's not right?

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        • #94
          Re: Vive La France !!!!!

          Originally posted by londontsi View Post
          Put the topic to rest ???
          Without justice ?
          Once again you misunderstood. The "topic" that should be put to rest is debate over genocide. THERE IS NO DEBATE. It is DONE. It has been done for a loooong time. No one is saying forget Genocide or put the "Genocide topic" to rest.
          this post = teh win.

          Comment

          • #95
            Re: Vive La France !!!!!

            Originally posted by Sip View Post
            Once again you misunderstood. The "topic" that should be put to rest is debate over genocide. THERE IS NO DEBATE. It is DONE. It has been done for a loooong time. No one is saying forget Genocide or put the "Genocide topic" to rest.
            Can’t you understand that IF LEFT ALONE Turkey will never admit any responsibility, FOREVER.
            On the contrary it will fight in every way it can, fair or foul, as its been doing thus far.
            The debate will never end.

            Why ?

            Because it thinks ( it is confident) it can win this because it is stronger, has more resources, is more experienced, can apply more political influence.
            Also the status quo is in its favour.

            Turkey must be listening with joy to those “blind” free speech advocates, it is cherry on the cake as far as its resources are concerned.

            This law breaks that vicious cycle.
            Negates the advantage the strong has when the weak is seeking justice.

            .
            Politics is not about the pursuit of morality nor what's right or wrong
            Its about self interest at personal and national level often at odds with the above.
            Great politicians pursue the National interest and small politicians personal interests

            Comment

            • #96
              Re: Vive La France !!!!!

              Originally posted by londontsi View Post
              Can’t you understand that IF LEFT ALONE Turkey will never admit any responsibility, FOREVER
              .
              Of course I understand this. What makes you think I don't? And where did I say leave Turkey alone? lol. Are you having some imaginary argument in your head against me?
              this post = teh win.

              Comment

              • #97
                Re: Vive La France !!!!!

                Originally posted by londontsi View Post
                Can’t you understand that IF LEFT ALONE Turkey will never admit any responsibility, FOREVER.
                On the contrary it will fight in every way it can, fair or foul, as its been doing thus far.
                The debate will never end.

                Why ?

                Because it thinks ( it is confident) it can win this because it is stronger, has more resources, is more experienced, can apply more political influence.
                Also the status quo is in its favour.

                Turkey must be listening with joy to those “blind” free speech advocates, it is cherry on the cake as far as its resources are concerned.

                This law breaks that vicious cycle.
                Negates the advantage the strong has when the weak is seeking justice.

                .
                Quoted for truth:

                and this exactly what turks are doing guys (and every turk online it seems) and it is working for them very well.......looking at it from my angle.
                B0zkurt Hunter

                Comment

                • #98
                  Re: Vive La France !!!!!

                  and as long certain key countries do not officially recognise the AG then Turkey will always have the leverage in the West.
                  B0zkurt Hunter

                  Comment

                  • #99
                    Re: Vive La France !!!!!

                    Let us say that Turkey recognises the Armenian genocide tomorrow, what will change? Will they give us land? Or open the border?
                    Everything will stay the same. Maybe the people that are still alive from 1915 will get some money but that is it. No one will ever force Turkey to give up an inch of land. If you want that land then you need to fight for it. No one has ever given up land without shedding blood for it. Will it change something for Armenia in the long run? No Turkey will still be anti-Armenian and do everything to help Azerbaijan.

                    It is time for Armenians to see that getting Turkey to recognise the genocide will change nothing. Should we continue to get countries to recognise the genocide? Yes we should, however we should also start working on getting those same countries to start getting warm to the idea of recognising Artsakh.

                    This law is retarded because it doesn't do anything to help the Armenian cause at all, the only thing it does is help Sarkozy to get a second term. It makes a couple of retards to shut their mouths. It can not stop Turkish officials from denying the genocide because they have immunity when they are visiting France. So I wonder what is it that we have won here?

                    Comment

                    • #100
                      Re: Vive La France !!!!!

                      Originally posted by KarotheGreat View Post
                      Let us say that Turkey recognises the Armenian genocide tomorrow, what will change? Will they give us land? Or open the border?
                      Everything will stay the same. Maybe the people that are still alive from 1915 will get some money but that is it. No one will ever force Turkey to give up an inch of land. If you want that land then you need to fight for it. No one has ever given up land without shedding blood for it. Will it change something for Armenia in the long run? No Turkey will still be anti-Armenian and do everything to help Azerbaijan.

                      It is time for Armenians to see that getting Turkey to recognise the genocide will change nothing. Should we continue to get countries to recognise the genocide? Yes we should, however we should also start working on getting those same countries to start getting warm to the idea of recognising Artsakh.

                      This law is retarded because it doesn't do anything to help the Armenian cause at all, the only thing it does is help Sarkozy to get a second term. It makes a couple of retards to shut their mouths. It can not stop Turkish officials from denying the genocide because they have immunity when they are visiting France. So I wonder what is it that we have won here?
                      It's not aimed at stopping turc diplomats spouting their xxxxe, they will choke on their words one day.
                      This law is aimed at stopping the turc immigrant or french-turc citizen from continuing the Genocide BY IT'S DENIAL. Trivialising it by claiming it is aimed at a 2nd term for Sarkozy merely echoes turc ranting.

                      And you want the border open ????????????
                      Go to Georgia and play spot the Georgian business amongst the turcs.................................opening the border would just allow turcs to enter the rest of Armenia.
                      Last edited by hrai; 01-11-2012, 05:01 AM.

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