Vive La France !!!!!

[hrai]

Re: Vive La France !!!!!

No no I do agree with you here. I am NOT advocating letting guards down against Turks. They and those who continue to deny the truth are scum and the lowest forms of life there is no question about it. I have never wavered from my stance that Turks should be held accountable for their actions (and continued denial). I think the only nuance here is I am against censoring their denial as opposed to holding them accountable for the actual actions. The real issue is what they did and not what they say today. What they say is entirely irrelevant as the truth is the truth and more than adequately documented and no mater how much they deny it will not change.

Lifted from Genocide Watch website....The 8 stages of Genocide.

"8. DENIAL is the eighth stage that always follows a genocide. It is among the surest indicators of further genocidal massacres.
The perpetrators of genocide dig up the mass graves, burn the bodies, try to cover up the evidence and intimidate the witnesses. They deny that they committed any crimes, and often blame what happened on the victims. They block investigations of the crimes, and continue to govern until driven from power by force, when they flee into exile. There they remain with impunity, like Pol Pot or Idi Amin, unless they are captured and a tribunal is established to try them. The response to denial is punishment by an international tribunal or national courts. There the evidence can be heard, and the perpetrators punished. Tribunals like the Yugoslav or Rwanda Tribunals, or an international tribunal to try the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia, or an International Criminal Court may not deter the worst genocidal killers. But with the political will to arrest and prosecute them, some may be brought to justice."

My bold & italics.

You see Sip, it does matter what they say and their denial has led to physical as well as psychological continuation.

[londontsi]

Re: Vive La France !!!!!

You are right, I coudn't give a damn either what they admit to at this point in time in history.......

You cannot come along at different times in history and ask them to admit different things.

The pressure and the “fight” should be consistent from “day one”, otherwise we would lose credibility.

Genocide triggers various international legal obligation including our demands, land compensation etc.

[Eddo211]

Re: Vive La France !!!!!

What do we want? I don't see any specific proposals other than Turkey has to admit blah blah ... well who cares if they admit? The question is given the undisputed truth, what next?

You are right, I coudn't give a damn either what they admit to at this point in time in history.......this bill insults the turkishness of Ankara with their anti-Armenian foreign policy, doesn't matter whats next or even if it actually passes.

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Vive La France !!!!!

Do you want to pass laws against those who still think God made the Earth 5000 years ago or that those that think the Earth is flat?

Actually, the usual countries that would enact repressive laws like this are the sort which would make it against the law to deny that God made the Earth 5000 years ago!

If this particular law fails to pass, Turkey will say with satisfaction that the government of France has officially rejected the false genocide allegations of Armenians. If this particular law passes, Turkey will puff itself up with hurt pride and say that France has just done it as part of a plot to make certain that Turkey does not become part of the EU.

[Sip]

Re: Vive La France !!!!!

If you leave the the truth open to debate then the truth (the facts) are open to debate (indefinitely ....) .

Do you want to pass laws against those who still think God made the Earth 5000 years ago or that those that think the Earth is flat? Of course not. At some point you stop bickering and arguing topics that have been beat to death. How many countries have to pass resolutions and affirmations and how many academics have to go on the record until a topic is put to rest? If you criminalize the opposing view, you are doing more of an injustice to the truth and that implies the facts alone aren't enough.

In this case, there is NO debate. The debate has been settled for a very very long time. Of course the Turks will deny it (who is really surprised by that?). The question is what now. What do we want? I don't see any specific proposals other than Turkey has to admit blah blah ... well who cares if they admit? The question is given the undisputed truth, what next?

[Sip]

Re: Vive La France !!!!!

By terminally niaive I describe the victims of their own belief in higher standards of humanity as touched upon in my previous post. Their naivety left them in exposed positions, witness the Dashnaks and their foolhardy dalliance with the CUP. The turc is a master at deception, fooling Armenians into believing they were the loyal millet, fooling the bolsheviks that ataturd was a red, fooling the western powers, fooling fools.

I can see no benefit to Armenia, Armenians or humanity in trying to picture the turc for anything other than he is. No higher standard of humanity exists there. Unfortunately, some would have history repeat itself, time and time again. The turc genocide against Armenians is ongoing, witness Sumgait, Artsakh, Nakhichevan and and. It did not end in 1923. The immense funds used by the turcs to deny the genocide is part of the genocide..............not simply unpopular speech.

If you feel that this is an insult I'm truly sorry for you.

No no I do agree with you here. I am NOT advocating letting guards down against Turks. They and those who continue to deny the truth are scum and the lowest forms of life there is no question about it. I have never wavered from my stance that Turks should be held accountable for their actions (and continued denial). I think the only nuance here is I am against censoring their denial as opposed to holding them accountable for the actual actions. The real issue is what they did and not what they say today. What they say is entirely irrelevant as the truth is the truth and more than adequately documented and no mater how much they deny it will not change.

[Sip]

Re: Vive La France !!!!!

Londontsi .. you seem to think I am against having laws? That is just not true. I believe in the rule of law.

[londontsi]

Re: Vive La France !!!!!

Justice and injustice are about ACTIONS.

Justice is not that.
Justice is about LAWS, FACTS and the TRUTH.

Verbal bullying is a form of “freedom of speech”.
There in no “action” only “freedom of speech”.
Yet society has (preventative) anti-bullying laws.

I am 100% for punishing bad actions.

A futile statement since “bad actions” are open to debate ( infinitum) without a set law.

So don't misunderstand that while I maintain that speech shouldn't be censored (in any form), I still 100% am for demanding justice for the criminal actions committed by the Turks.

Your understanding of the reasons we have laws is weak.
Life is an uneven playing field.
The purpose of laws is not only to establish order, but more importantly to protect the weak.
You are basically advocating the rule of the jungle where the “stronger” ( not necessarily the morally) wins most of the time.

The fact that some people are denying truth is completely irrelevant.

You are a joker, some people? irrelevant?

There is no question about what the truth is here.

If you leave the the truth open to debate then the truth (the facts) are open to debate (indefinitely ....) .

[Mher]

Re: Vive La France !!!!!

Sarkozy wants to criminalize Armenian Genocide denial in European states – Hurriyet

January 09, 2012 | 13:16

President of France Nicolas Sarkozy wants to spread bills criminalizing the Armenian Genocide throughout Europe, Hurriyet newspaper reported.

Once Turkish Ambassador Tahsin Burcuoglu returned to Ankara, Sarkozy took new steps, the newspaper writes.

The daily recalls that bill banning Armenian Genocide denial will be most likely discussed in the French Senate on January 23-31.

“Even prior to the hearings in Senate, Sarkozy took another step hampering Turkey’s joining the EU. France wants to include Armenian bill in the EU framework decision on combating racism and xenophobia adopted back in 2007. France wants to spread bill penalizing the Armenian Genocide denial throughout Europe,” the newspaper writes.

French National Assembly adopted bill which makes it a crime to deny the Armenian Genocide on December 22, 2011. The bill supposes a year imprisonment and a 45,000 euro fine for those who are denying the fact of the Armenian Genocide.

http://news.am/eng/news/88387.html

[hrai]

Re: Vive La France !!!!!

I don't know what you mean with "terminally niaive" but I definitely think you are right in the first part. So now you have to ask yourself where did these "stable and secure societies" come from. You can have the illusion of security and stability (perhaps for very very long times even) based on oppression, censorship, and forcibly silencing the opposition ... or you can try for the better I know you are emotionally tied to this particular situation so I understand why you are getting so angry at what I have said and choose to insult me rather than understand what I am trying to tell you. But part of this higher way of thinking that I am advocating is to let you do that freely.

By terminally niaive I describe the victims of their own belief in higher standards of humanity as touched upon in my previous post. Their naivety left them in exposed positions, witness the Dashnaks and their foolhardy dalliance with the CUP. The turc is a master at deception, fooling Armenians into believing they were the loyal millet, fooling the bolsheviks that ataturd was a red, fooling the western powers, fooling fools.

I can see no benefit to Armenia, Armenians or humanity in trying to picture the turc for anything other than he is. No higher standard of humanity exists there. Unfortunately, some would have history repeat itself, time and time again. The turc genocide against Armenians is ongoing, witness Sumgait, Artsakh, Nakhichevan and and. It did not end in 1923. The immense funds used by the turcs to deny the genocide is part of the genocide..............not simply unpopular speech.

If you feel that this is an insult I'm truly sorry for you.