Vive La France !!!!!

[hrai]

Re: Vive La France !!!!!

Uhhh... What exactly is that supposed to mean?

In post #204< Sip stated as a fact that all murderers and rapists denied their crimes, based on what? My post is asking where that intimate and universal knowledge comes from.

Sip included speeding motorists, I've speeding tickets and never denied those crimes...................caught on speed cameras kind of made that pointless.

[Siggie]

Re: Vive La France !!!!!

Do all rapists & murderers deny their crimes? You have intimate knowledge of these types of people I suppose.

Uhhh... What exactly is that supposed to mean?

[Siggie]

Re: Vive La France !!!!!

People tend to think that if you resort to this kind of thing to shut them up then they must have been onto something. It would give them more power and I'm sure propagation of bullsh!t will continue clandestinely. However, if we allow them to speak out and then poke holes in their arguments, mock the absurdity, etc. publicly, I think this would have more impact.

[Sip]

Re: Vive La France !!!!!

The fact is the facts haven't been established in the eyes of most average people. Many average people do not know about the genocide and they can be manipulated by lies...

This part I definitely agree with. It is important to continue to document and preserve the truth and dissect and systematically dispel any credible looking propaganda and turkish myths. That is the real fight. I said this before too and one good thing at least that comes out of this whole situation is that this question is at the center of debate so it is not a bad thing

But lets not lose sight of the fact that at the end of the day, this is a law trying to outlaw Turkish statements which at the end of the day mean nothing. What is important is how strong and established the truth is ... not how squashed and forcibly silenced the lies are.

[Sip]

Re: Vive La France !!!!!

Not all offenders deny their crime

I agree. Doesn't change anything I said. I still think it is far more important to focus on the crime itself rather than what the offender says after the facts have been laid out.

[Mher]

Re: Vive La France !!!!!

Edit: Typed this at the same time as bell's post:

Just to clarify, I am not saying the statement about the 8th step of genocide is wrong ... it's just that it is really pointless as it can be said of ANY crime. Yes the denial of a crime is the last step of ANY crime. This doesn't mean we should get particularly excited about working effortlessly and pouring tons of resources into laws that punish denial of crimes.

A rapist should be held accountable for being a rapist.
A murderer, for being a murderer.
A speeder should get a ticket for speeding.
A kid that didn't do his homework should get penalized for not doing the homework

The fact that all these people deny their wrong-doing is kind of a side issue and really irrelevant once the facts have been established. Maybe you want to teach the kid to tell the truth but that's more of a parental figure sort of thing which is not what international laws should really be about.

The fact is the facts haven't been established in the eyes of most average people. Many average people do not know about the genocide and they can be manipulated by lies. Complete international recognition which will lead to pressure on Turkey can't be established until average people know the truth, and that will never happen as long as the Turks continue with their propaganda to dilute the facts.

[hrai]

Re: Vive La France !!!!!

Edit: Typed this at the same time as bell's post:

Just to clarify, I am not saying the statement about the 8th step of genocide is wrong ... it's just that it is really pointless as it can be said of ANY crime. Yes the denial of a crime is the last step of ANY crime. This doesn't mean we should get particularly excited about working effortlessly and pouring tons of resources into laws that punish denial of crimes.

A rapist should be held accountable for being a rapist.
A murderer, for being a murderer.
A speeder should get a ticket for speeding.
A kid that didn't do his homework should get penalized for not doing the homework

The fact that all these people deny their wrong-doing is kind of a side issue and really irrelevant once the facts have been established. Maybe you want to teach the kid to tell the truth but that's more of a parental figure sort of thing which is not what international laws should really be about.

Do all rapists & murderers deny their crimes? You have intimate knowledge of these types of people I suppose.

Not all offenders deny their crime and your examples beggar belief.

I wonder if the victims of Sumgait and Baku pogroms would have agreed with you. Yours is the trash.

[Sip]

Re: Vive La France !!!!!

Edit: Typed this at the same time as bell's post:

Just to clarify, I am not saying the statement about the 8th step of genocide is wrong ... it's just that it is really pointless as it can be said of ANY crime. Yes the denial of a crime is the last step of ANY crime. This doesn't mean we should get particularly excited about working effortlessly and pouring tons of resources into laws that punish denial of crimes.

A rapist should be held accountable for being a rapist.
A murderer, for being a murderer.
A speeder should get a ticket for speeding.
A kid that didn't do his homework should get penalized for not doing the homework

The fact that all these people deny their wrong-doing is kind of a side issue and really irrelevant once the facts have been established. Maybe you want to teach the kid to tell the truth but that's more of a parental figure sort of thing which is not what international laws should really be about.

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Vive La France !!!!!

8. DENIAL

Denial is the eighth stage that always follows genocide. It is among the surest indicators
of further genocidal massacres. The perpetrators of genocide dig up the mass graves,
burn the bodies, try to cover up the evidence and intimidate the witnesses. They deny
that they committed any crimes, and often blame what happened on the victims. They
block investigations of the crimes, and continue to govern until driven from power by
force, when they flee into exile. Leaders of the genocide continue to deny the crime
unless they are captured and a tribunal (special court) is established to try them.
The best response to denial is punishment by an international tribunal or national courts.
There the evidence can be heard, and the perpetrators punished. Tribunals or
international courts must be created. They may not prevent the worst genocidal killers,
but at least some mass murderers may be brought to justice.

How many times is this trash going to reappear in this thread? It's literally like saying farting in the general direction of the girl's face is the last step of a brutal rape and murder. We have to pass this HUGE laws to punish any rapist who dares to pass gas in a victim's face. And we are only going to focus on the farting part because that was the last phase. Come on now.

It is the "stage" those who make a fat living from the Holocaust Industry tend to emphasise: it justifies all their museums and rememberence days and so on. There is no evidence that one genocidal regime covering up the evidence of its genocide and denying it happened has ever encouraged another genocide by a completely different genocidal regime to happen. Nor does the fate of past genocidal murderers discourage future ones: only inconvenient individuals on the loosing side get caught and punished. Genocide never prospers because when it does prosper (such as what happened to the French in Algeria after its independence, or what happened to Christian Iraqis after the American invasion of Iraq) politicians and the establishment don't dare call it a genocide. But genocide is in itself quite an easy crime to diagnose, and an all but impossible crime to hide. What would help to stop future acts of genocide is just the open and unrestricted exchange of ideas and information and the open and unrestricted right to comment on those ideas and information - but this French law is against such things.

[Siggie]

Re: Vive La France !!!!!

How many times is this trash going to reappear in this thread? It's literally like saying farting in the general direction of the girl's face is the last step of a brutal rape and murder. We have to pass this HUGE laws to punish any rapist who dares to pass gas in a victim's face. And we are only going to focus on the farting part because that was the last phase. Come on now.

This example is .... interesting?

Don't anyone dream of farting anywhere on this forum at all whether in my direction or not!

Seems like there would be better (and perhaps less round-a-bout) ways to prevent genocide.