Vive La France !!!!!

[Eddo211]

Re: Vive La France !!!!!

My thoughts too when I read about this this morning. Do they not have free speech rights? Apparently these kinds of laws have been passed before, so I guess not. How do you criminalize thought or belief or the expression thereof? How do you even begin to enforce something like this? *shrugs *

This law doean't effect people in the street expressing their believes on AG. It comes into effect if you are running a organization that promoted denial to the French public or say a representative paid by Turkey who makes a formal speech denying the AG.

Turks can run along Paris/chanselizez and scream there was no Genocide and nothing will happen to him/her other than be seen as a fool.

[londontsi]

Re: Vive La France !!!!!

....... I think sensorship of speech of any kind is bad. Whether it is "denial", whether it is hate speech, or whether is it propaganda. What we should worry about is criminalizing criminal ACTIONS.

The answer is straight forward.
The aim of this law is to stop the truth being eroded through “debate”.
Removes the opportunity for the interested parties (Turkey) through foul methods water down the truth.

However I must say I DO appreciate what they are trying to achieve. It's just the way they go about it is not right.

Armenia(ians) have been advocating this for quite some time.
They are satisfied with what has been achieved so far.

It was very interesting to see almost all Armenian party representatives talking with praise towards the ARF,
since they seem to have been the driving force behind this effort.

[londontsi]

Re: Vive La France !!!!!

This is just as dumb as criminalizing Holocaust denial. I think sensorship of speech of any kind is bad. Whether it is "denial", whether it is hate speech, or whether is it propaganda. What we should worry about is criminalizing criminal ACTIONS. What's next? They are going to put a fine on being stupid? (hmmm ... that doesn't sound too bad actually!)

However I must say I DO appreciate what they are trying to achieve. It's just the way they go about it is not right.

My thoughts too when I read about this this morning. Do they not have free speech rights? Apparently these kinds of laws have been passed before, so I guess not. How do you criminalize thought or belief or the expression thereof? How do you even begin to enforce something like this? *shrugs *

I find both of your statements rather daft.

Lets get get this straight.
This does not criminalize thought, unless you can read people’s mind.
No different than if I go Turkey and I think of the Genocide victims despite Article 301.

However if I make statements or write articles or give interviews etc. than I would be breaking the law.

No different than as an example I advocate rape as something natural (or normal) or paedophilia as something normal and desirable.

There is nothing new as far applying the law here.

Cannot understand the “difficulty” both of you seem to be having.



.

[Siggie]

Re: Vive La France !!!!!

This is just as dumb as criminalizing Holocaust denial. I think sensorship of speech of any kind is bad. Whether it is "denial", whether it is hate speech, or whether is it propaganda. What we should worry about is criminalizing criminal ACTIONS. What's next? They are going to put a fine on being stupid? (hmmm ... that doesn't sound too bad actually!)

However I must say I DO appreciate what they are trying to achieve. It's just the way they go about it is not right.

My thoughts too when I read about this this morning. Do they not have free speech rights? Apparently these kinds of laws have been passed before, so I guess not. How do you criminalize thought or belief or the expression thereof? How do you even begin to enforce something like this? *shrugs *

[Sip]

Re: Vive La France !!!!!

This is just as dumb as criminalizing Holocaust denial. I think sensorship of speech of any kind is bad. Whether it is "denial", whether it is hate speech, or whether is it propaganda. What we should worry about is criminalizing criminal ACTIONS. What's next? They are going to put a fine on being stupid? (hmmm ... that doesn't sound too bad actually!)

However I must say I DO appreciate what they are trying to achieve. It's just the way they go about it is not right.

[Mher]

Re: Vive La France !!!!!

Turkey angered by French bill to criminalize 'Armenian genocide denial'

By Michail Vafeiadis Contributor / December 21, 2011

Nearly 100 years have elapsed since the killing of thousands of Armenians, but the wounds seem far from healed.

The French parliament is to vote on a bill on Thursday making it illegal to deny that the 1915 killing of Armenians during World War I was genocide. The bill, which is expected to pass, provides for a one-year prison term and a fine of $58,000 (45,000 euros) to anyone who publicly denies it was genocide.

The vote in the French National Assembly has stirred a diplomatic frenzy and French and Turkish politicians are jumping into the fray.

Recommended: Five ways Tayyip Erdogan has shaped Turkey

“This proposed law targets and is hostile to the Republic of Turkey, the Turkish nation and the Turkish community living in France,” Tayyip Erdogan, the Turkish Prime Minister wrote in a letter to French President Nicolas Sarkozy, Reuters reports.

During a Saturday news conference, Mr. Erdogan suggested that France ought to investigate her own role and actions in colonial Africa, including Rwanda.

Turkey maintains that the proposed bill is a political ploy by Sarkozy's political party to win the votes of 500,000 Armenians in France ahead of next year’s parliamentary and presidential elections. Sarkozy has also been an outspoken opponent of Turkey desire to join the European Union.

Jean Leonetti, the European Affairs Minister of France, dismisses such allegations and says that opposition Socialists will endorse the bill as well. “It has been nearly 100 years since the Armenian genocide took place, those responsible are dead, it is simply a matter of recognizing a fact of history,” he told Radio Classique, The Telegraph in London reports.

Ersin Onulduran, chairman of the department of international relations at Ankara University, told Today's Zaman, a Turkish daily, that “only historians and archival experts should pass judgment on the merits of historical events.”

Although there is little consensus, Armenians say that about 1.5 million people were killed during the mass deportations of 1915-16.

The Turkish government acknowledges the death of many Armenians, yet, it denies that Ottoman forces deliberately exterminated them. Turkey considers the numbers as inflated and says that Turks were also killed due to the upheaval that followed the disintegration of the Ottoman Empire.

Many Turks, disappointed and disillusioned by European delays over entry into the EU, are now embracing a more assertive rhetoric.

“I want to state clearly that such steps will have grave consequences for future relations between Turkey and France in political, economic, cultural and all areas,” Erdogan said according to Reuters. While Turkey implicitly threatens to boycott French products if the bill passes, it has ruled out imposing trade sanctions.

So far this year, bilateral trade between Turkey and France is estimated at more than $13.5 billion. About 1,000 French companies operate in Turkey.

"We have to remember international rules and with regard to Turkey it's a member of the WTO (World Trade Organization) and is linked to the European Union by a customs union and these two commitments mean a non-discriminatory policy towards all companies within the European Union," said French Foreign Ministry spokesman Bernard Valero, Reuters reports.

In 2006, a similar bill was introduced and approved by the French National Assembly but was later dropped by the Senate. In France, any legislative initiative requires the endorsement of both parliament and the Senate to be enacted.

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Global-News/2011/1221/Turkey-angered-by-French-bill-to-criminalize-Armenian-genocide-denial

[londontsi]

Re: Vive La France !!!!!

.
The best way to water down the facts relating the Armenian Genocide is to have it open to debate
creating confusion and making it “a matter of opinion”.

Long-term aiming it to be only a footnote in history books.

Turkey has been working at it partly successfully through foul means, threats
political blackmail, buying influence and of course the infamous article 301.

This is a first stage to correcting the vulnerability of the truth.

I hope it will also bury any possibility of a historic commission for good.

.

[Mher]

Re: Vive La France !!!!!

If France is doing it in the expectation of the applause to continue, it will be disapointed. There is nothing that will satisfy an Armenian, he will always want more and expect more (while pouring his scorn on the very people he assumes will freely and selflessly provide that "more").

But I think there are probably darker motives at work in this desire to create what is basically a thought crime. Maybe some French politicians think that if they are successful in creating thought crime laws against those holding extreme and unsustainable positions, like genocide denial, then maybe they can eventually create them to silence more legitimate opinons.

shut up already. I've never said anything bad to you respecting your age, but don't cross the line.
There are similar laws across Europe for the Holocaust. According to European standards this is something that should be expected.
Merci France

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Vive La France !!!!!

The bill -- applauded by Armenians -- must now be voted on by the country's Senate.

If France is doing it in the expectation of the applause to continue, it will be disapointed. There is nothing that will satisfy an Armenian, he will always want more and expect more (while pouring his scorn on the very people he assumes will freely and selflessly provide that "more").

But I think there are probably darker motives at work in this desire to create what is basically a thought crime. Maybe some French politicians think that if they are successful in creating thought crime laws against those holding extreme and unsustainable positions, like genocide denial, then maybe they can eventually create them to silence more legitimate opinons.

[hrai]

Re: Vive La France !!!!!

Baku responds to adoption of 'Armenian genocide' bill in French Senate
Thu 22 December 2011 13:50 GMT | 13:50 Local Time
Text size:

MFA of Azerbaijan
"The turning of a group of members of the French parliament into the hostage of Armenian Diaspora causes regret".
The statement came from spokesperson for the Azerbaijani Ministry of Foreign Affairs Elman Abdullayev commenting on the French National Assembly’s adoption of a draft law criminalizing the denial of made up “Armenian genocide”, APA reports.

Abdullayev said that as a country conducting the mediatory mission in the settlement of Nagorno Karabakh conflict, France shouldn’t have been turned into the hostage of Armenian Diaspora:

'The parliamentarians voting for this law must also seriously approach to Khojaly genocide occurred before the eyes of the world community'.

News.AzPicket held outside French embassy in Azerbaijan -





[ 22 Dec 2011 13:35 ]
Baku. Azer Mustafayev – APA. The members of the International Diaspora Center and Azerbaijan War Veterans Union picketed outside the French embassy in Azerbaijan.

APA reports that the picketers chanted slogans “Be just, French parliament!”, “Shame on Srakozy!”, “Stop Sarkozy, French people!”, “Stop aid to Armenia occupying Karabakh!”.

At the end of the picket, a statement was read and submitted to the embassy on behalf of the participants.

Chairman of the International Diaspora Center Ismayil Agayev told APA that they protest against the bill outlawing the denial of the so-called “Armenian genocide”, which is being discussed at the parliament on demand of French President Nicolas Sarkozy.
“Our main goal is to support our Turkish brothers. We call on the world community not to close eyes to the illegal actions of the French. First of all, they must properly assess the Khojaly tragedy that was committed 20 years ago. If France unambiguously defends Armenia, it must leave the Minsk Group,” he said.