Hidden "Armenians" in Turkey....

[hipeter924]

Re: Hidden "Armenians" in Turkey....

These are a couple of the Mongolian turks sites that I came across to.

http://www.turkishculture.org/pages.php?ChildID=111&ParentID=2&ChildID1=563&mil

In this site they call it their architecture of the Mosques. Their most attractive and their best Mosques in Istanbul were built by Armenian architectures. They stole our music and songs. Just recently they stole our song "Zartir Lao"s music.

http://www.redkaganate.org/tribelist/seljuq.shtml#first

Notice in the second site it is said that the seljuk turks invaded Armenia in 1050.

ՄԵԾ ՀԱՅՐՍ ԿԸՍԷՐ ԹՇՆԱՄԻԴ ԼԱՒ ՃԱՆՉՑԻՐ, ՆՈՅՆԻՍԿ ԼԵԶՈՒՆ ԱԼ ՍՈՎՈՐԻՐ:

Well Constantinople was built by the Romans, and the Eastern Roman Empire. Greek's, Armenian's and many different cultures and religions built the city. All the Ottoman's did was destroy the artwork and history by painting over it, or knocking it down to use for fortifications or mosques.

Everything from science, mathematics, art, architecture was all stolen from the Roman's nothing the Ottoman's made they made was theirs, they merely took the talents of the Eastern Roman's abused the people, then wiped them out (in genocides and massacres over the centuries).

So its no wonder that the Turk's are now claiming everything as theirs, they have been doing so for centuries, it was great propaganda. You can read books about Turkey's ancient 'civilization', and great Turkish 'art' and 'music'. As a westerner I see little differences in music style between Armenian and Turk's, which shows how much the Turk's took from their subject people's.

But enough history, Constantinople is being torn down and replaced with modern buildings, or mosques, the irony today is that they are uncovering all the art and architecture they tried to destroy by painting over it because the western tourists like it (the only reason they are doing it is to make money).

[Anoush]

Re: Hidden "Armenians" in Turkey....

These are a couple of the Mongolian turks sites that I came across to.

http://www.turkishculture.org/pages.php?ChildID=111&ParentID=2&ChildID1=563&mil

In this site they call it their architecture of the Mosques. Their most attractive and their best Mosques in Istanbul were built by Armenian architectures. They stole our music and songs. Just recently they stole our song "Zartir Lao"s music.

http://www.redkaganate.org/tribelist/seljuq.shtml#first

Notice in the second site it is said that the seljuk turks invaded Armenia in 1050.

ՄԵԾ ՀԱՅՐՍ ԿԸՍԷՐ ԹՇՆԱՄԻԴ ԼԱՒ ՃԱՆՉՑԻՐ, ՆՈՅՆԻՍԿ ԼԵԶՈՒՆ ԱԼ ՍՈՎՈՐԻՐ:

[Anoush]

Re: Hidden "Armenians" in Turkey....

These are but some of the photos of the Mongolian Turks' tribe' features.

Notice how Lenin has the Mongolian features.

[Anoush]

Re: Hidden "Armenians" in Turkey....

You are incorrect, many Turk's are devolving (thanks to their genocide denial and intolerance), in a million years (or maybe a few thousand) they might look like this: http://ima.dada.net/image/medium/981136.jpg

Yeah devolving... haha...

[hipeter924]

Re: Hidden "Armenians" in Turkey....

I know at least one family and their beautiful daughter went to Saturday Armenian school with my daughter and they both graduated now.



Oh yeah they got mixed up with all the nationalities that you've mentioned above and now they look a heck of a lot better than they used to. The Mongolian turks were usually very unattractive looking, btw; huge heads and small corpses with slanted eyes and smelly bodies. They sure don't look like their anscesters before they got mixed with everyone else. However they still continue with their ultra nationalist islamic regime, to the point that they teach hatred in schools against Christians (Greeks, Armenians, Assyrians, etc.) and of course even against the Kurds as we know it.

You are incorrect, many Turk's are devolving (thanks to their genocide denial and intolerance), in a million years (or maybe a few thousand) they might look like this: http://ima.dada.net/image/medium/981136.jpg

[Anoush]

Re: Hidden "Armenians" in Turkey....

What happened those groups that moved to the u.s. and were helped by Diasporan Armenian organizations? Did they re-connect with their Armenian roots?

I know at least one family and their beautiful daughter went to Saturday Armenian school with my daughter and they both graduated now.

Also, it is safe to say that many turks today are a hodge podge of the various ethnicity's whom they ruled over. The major ones being: Arabs, Kurds, Bulgarians, Assyrians, Armenians, Greeks, Serbians, Croatians, Romanians, Albanians, etc. And add to this the various turkic tribes that came west with the seljuks and ottomans. Hence why turks no longer look like any of their central asian 'kin', it is because they are now genetically closer to their neighboring peoples than central asians.

I have not come across any studies that break down the percentages of each ethic group within modern turks, if anyone has please post it.

Oh yeah they got mixed up with all the nationalities that you've mentioned above and now they look a heck of a lot better than they used to. The Mongolian turks were usually very unattractive looking, btw; huge heads and small corpses with slanted eyes and smelly bodies. They sure don't look like their anscesters before they got mixed with everyone else. However they still continue with their ultra nationalist islamic regime, to the point that they teach hatred in schools against Christians (Greeks, Armenians, Assyrians, etc.) and of course even against the Kurds as we know it.

[Armanen]

Re: Hidden "Armenians" in Turkey....

Thanks for the article Fed jan. It's not new to most of us about these poor souls who have converted or obliged or rather pushed to convert to islam and we know very well that the turks of today don't have all mongolian blood cells. Because of the Genocide to the Armenians, the Greeks and the Assyrians, most of today's turks' DNA has been proved to be I think I read it somewhere on the internet that it is somewhere around 60 or 70% of Greek origin. Though undoubtedly there are Armenian, Assyrian, Cherkez and others mixed in their DNA as well.

Some of the eastern population in turkey whose roots were of Armenian origin were brought to Istanbul and some migrated to other parts of the world as well as the US, because that was their wish and Diasporan Armenian organizations helped them for this.

What happened those groups that moved to the u.s. and were helped by Diasporan Armenian organizations? Did they re-connect with their Armenian roots?

Also, it is safe to say that many turks today are a hodge podge of the various ethnicity's whom they ruled over. The major ones being: Arabs, Kurds, Bulgarians, Assyrians, Armenians, Greeks, Serbians, Croatians, Romanians, Albanians, etc. And add to this the various turkic tribes that came west with the seljuks and ottomans. Hence why turks no longer look like any of their central asian 'kin', it is because they are now genetically closer to their neighboring peoples than central asians.

I have not come across any studies that break down the percentages of each ethic group within modern turks, if anyone has please post it.

[Anoush]

Re: Hidden "Armenians" in Turkey....

Thanks for the article Fed jan. It's not new to most of us about these poor souls who have converted or obliged or rather pushed to convert to islam and we know very well that the turks of today don't have all mongolian blood cells. Because of the Genocide to the Armenians, the Greeks and the Assyrians, most of today's turks' DNA has been proved to be I think I read it somewhere on the internet that it is somewhere around 60 or 70% of Greek origin. Though undoubtedly there are Armenian, Assyrian, Cherkez and others mixed in their DNA as well.

Some of the eastern population in turkey whose roots were of Armenian origin were brought to Istanbul and some migrated to other parts of the world as well as the US, because that was their wish and Diasporan Armenian organizations helped them for this.

[Federate]

Re: Turkey's Hidden Armenians

INSIGHTS FROM A CONVERTED ARMENIAN FAMILY IN DIYARBAKIR


Background

Diyarbakir (medium)Diyarbakir (also known as Amed or Amida) is located in the south-eastern part of Turkey. Its population is 1.5 million with Kurdish majority.

Before 1915, the Armenians had a large quarter in the city along with an active market which was burnt to ground on the eve of the Armenian genocide in 1915. The city was famous with St. Kirakos Church known for its high tower bell which was seen from any part of the city. Today, the tower bell no more exists and the church is in ruins.

The Armenians of Diyarbakir called themselves Tigranakertsi in relation to the city of Tigranakert which was built by King Tigran the Great and was once the capital of Armenia.

In 1915, Most of the Armenians in Diyarbakir were deported and later massacred on the road to Deir Zor. Few survived and were able to escape to Syria and Lebanon and start a new life. Many Armenian orphan children were either sold as slaves to Arabs and Kurds or saved by Kurdish families. Their names and identity were changed and their religion became Sunni Muslim. In other cases, families as whole had to change their religion and live secretly for many generations in order to survive the genocide and the continued persecution in the first decades of the Turkish Republic.

Maryam’s Family

This study focuses on a Muslim family in Diyarbakir with Armenian roots.

The family in concern comes originally from the village of Sati outside Diyarbakir. Sati was an Armenian village with a school and a church. The St. Mary Church was recently converted to mosque and called Sati Cami (1940s). The family’s grandmother was called Maryam who was born in 1901 in Sati.

Maryam lost her family during the genocide and was given shelter by a Kurdish family friend in the same village. Her name was changed to Sekine and her religion to Islam. At the early age of 13, she was forced into marriage with the family’s only son Sheikhmus. Over the years, they had 7 children and since marriage at early age was a tradition and sometimes a must, the 7 children formed a family of almost 250 members after 90 years (5 generations).

It is interesting to note that Sheikhmus’s family had also Armenian roots. His grandfather was originally from Sasun who fled to Diyarbakir during the 1860s and converted to Islam to avoid any further persecution from the Ottomans.

Unlike many converted families in Turkey, Sheikhmus’s new family (2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th generations) –– knew that their roots were Armenian. They had heard stories from their grandmother Maryam about her family and her village. Maryam remembered her family and school very well and she also remembered her younger brother Harutyun who was lost in April 1915.

During 1940-50s periods and due to the bad economic situation in the village, the family gradually moved to Diyarbakir City but kept their attachment to the village. Many years passed and although the family lived in the heartland of the Kurds, they were always considered as foreigners.

Interestingly, their Kurdish neighbors know about their past (and about Armenians) more then what they know but the feeling of guilt doesn’t let them speak freely. The elderly Kurds know that their parents also took part in the Armenian genocide and are responsible in a certain way to what happened to those converts.

Family Structure

The elderly of the family were very religious people. Praying 5 times and fasting during Ramadan were holy duties that were observed and respected (2). One of Maryam’s daughters even went to Mecca with her husband for Hajj (3). She earned the title Haji (a person who has gone to Hajj) by the family and friends.

An interesting phenomenon in the family was the role of the woman. The head of family is usually the oldest man and since Mehmet (Sheikhmus’s son) was dead; his wife – Badriye (68) – had become the head of the family. Although a stranger to the family, Badriye was a highly respected lady (4).

In Muslim families (esp. Middle east and Turkey), women are responsible for bringing up children and taking care of the family and house but never have authority or power for decision making. The man is the head of the family and when he dies, his son or his brother will take over not the wife or daughter or even his mother if she is still alive.

Badriye herself was from a family with unknown origins. When asked about her past, she said that her father’s name was “Hayg” a rather weird name for her environment but a purely Armenian name by all means.

One of Sheikmus’s daughters – Melike - had married a young orphan named. Ahmet now was 67 years old and had lost most his memory. The only two things that he remembered were that his family was from a village near Van and his father’s nickname was “Janfida” who was killed during the war. The man had no clue what was the name of the village or what did that nickname mean. “Janfida” is another weird name for that environment; it was an Armenian nickname given to those freedom fighters (Fedayis) who were defending their villages against the Ottoman Army and Kurdish militias (prior to 1915).

The family encourages the youngsters to marry young and have as much children as possible. Each couple has 4-7 children with the 65 year old Hafize breaking the family record with 9 children. In Anatolia, it’s a great privilege for a grandmother to hold her grand child’s grandchild – a privilege that Maryam had before dying in 1985 and a privilege that Badriye hopes to have also.

Most of the family members had married either their cousins or similar converts. When asked about the reason their answer was “to keep the blood pure”. Those members who had left Diyarbakir to Istanbul or Germany had more mixed marriages with other Kurds or Turks or Germans. Since they were away from their environment, their sense of belonging had faded but still they kept attached to the family, the village and the traditions.

Young Generation

Most of young members of the family identify themselves as Kurds but when asked what Ashiret (5) they belong to; they had no answer.

One of the younger members, Ali, was excited for the Kurdish cause and a big fan of Abdallah Ojalan. This was his school’s environment in Yenishehir – an area of Diyarbakir well known to have full loyalty to the Kurdish cause. However, his friends always knew that Ali is different.

The young generation is also highly educated: Mahmoud (29) was a graduate of the Engineering Faculty of Dicle University while his cousin, Feryal (25), was a lawyer and a member of a local leftist group. Another cousin Feyzo (36) was a well known physician in Dicle Hospital.

They are mostly free minded. Alcohol was banned at home but it was a habit to hang out with friends in coffee shops or restaurants serving drink. Some of them drink while in public places while others prefer indoors with close friends.

The family youngsters feel they are different then their neighboring Kurds but the economic and political hardships unifies them against injustice. Not all of them support the Kurdish militias in the Kandil Mountains (6) but they don’t see any other solution as long as the Government continues with its anti-Kurdish policies.

One of their young men, Mahmoud (age 27), invited some friends to have a drink in an open coffee shop at one of the gates of the city. While discussing about everyday life and politics, the issue of Ashiret was discussed. Although all of them were supposedly Kurds, none of them was able to identify his Ashiret. Only Adnan said clearly that his family once was Armenian and they converted during the war. Mahmoud was surprised to know that his life long friend Adnan was originally Armenian. After an hour of discussion, the 10 year old friends realized that they all have gaps in their past.

Apparently, all of them came from unknown roots. In a strange way, they felt more comfortable to hang out together.

Environment

The views towards the central government were almost the same within the youth of Diyarbakir. The education level was much lower then what it is in Istanbul or Ankara. Job opportunities were scarce. Hence, for a young man the only salvation was to move to Istanbul which has become an overly populated city of 15 million people among which almost 5 million are Kurds.

As a result, the youth had extreme anti-governmental feelings. Every now and then, Diyarbakir is the scene of violent clashes between pro-Kurdish parties and the Police or Army. The city itself is overly crowded with Army barracks and Police stations. All these had their deep effect on the youth of the city.

When the locals are asked about the Armenians, the answers become unclear. In schools, they are told the official version of the “so called Armenian Genocide” which denies that a mass murder had occurred and accuses the Armenians of conspiring with the Russians against the Ottoman Empire and killing millions of innocent Muslims but with no clear explanation of where the Armenians are now.

In the mosques, the Imams are all assigned by the government. In their Friday sermons, they sometimes mention Armenians, Greeks and xxxs as infidels and enemies of God. The Imams picture the infidels as those people who are far from Mohammed (7) who are not clean (8) and commit sins by selling and drinking Raki (9).

Many people in Diyarbakir consider Armenia (Ermenistan) as the land of infidelity where people drink on the streets and girls wear very light and open clothes - An idea that is very attractive to their young men but strongly appalling to the old generation.

In this environment, the secret life of these Armenian converts is explainable. They have chosen to live in low-profile and have blocked the past as it was full of bad memories. In many cases, they have become more religious then real Muslims in an attempt to prove their loyalty to their environment.

Conclusion

Maryam’s family still lives in Diyarbakir. They don’t identify themselves as Armenians but rather as Muslim Kurds with Armenian origins. They are very close to the Kurds but more then 90 years of coexistence couldn’t assimilate them. They are citizens of the Turkish republic but cannot clearly identify themselves by one of the 40 ethnic groups in Turkey. Their easy way out is to say “I’m a Kurd or I’m a Muslim”

Such families and communities that live in the dark in Turkey are like a big dark hall whose content is still mostly unknown - a “hall” that definitely needs deeper exploration and investigation. While many researchers were able to look through small windows; others had the rare chance to partially explore from the inside making this study a possible work.

Maryam’s family along with many other converts can’t be called Armenians because they lack the awareness of their national identity BUT they cannot be ignored as well since it was not their choice in the first place to become what they are right now…

Remarks

1. The exact site of the old city of Tigranakert is close to the town of Silvan – 15 min away from current Diyarbakir where the old city walls can still be seen.
2. Ramadan is the holy month for all Muslims in the world. It’s 30 days of fasting and praying period followed by 3 days of holiday (Eid el Fit). Fasting and praying are religious obligations for every Muslim.
3. Mecca is located in Saudi Arabia and is considered the holy city for all Muslims. It’s an honor for any Muslim to go for Hajj at least once in his life.
4. The bride (Gelin in Turkish) is considered a stranger to the family as she comes from different family.
5. Ashiret is originally an Arabic word and means tribe. Before 1915, the Kurds were identified through their Ashiret (tribe) while Armenians were identified through their city of origin. Till today, the Kurds identify themselves through their Ashirets scattered all over Anatolia, Syria, Iraq and Iran while Armenians in the Diaspora still identify themselves through their cities (Mushetsi, Vanetsi, Dikranagerdtsi, Sasuntsi, Atanatsi…)
6. Kandil Mountains are located between Iraq and Turkey and they are the main strongholds of the Kurdistan Workers’ Party (PKK) militia – which is fighting the Turkish Army since the 80s.
7. Mohammed is the Prophet who is the founder of the religion of Islam.
8. In Islam, children must be circumcised at an early age. This mainly symbolizes health and cleanliness. So for a Muslim, a non-circumcised person is dirty and unhealthy person.
9. Drinking alcohol is totally forbidden in Islam and it’s considered a great sin.

1 As it has been mentioned for many times the issue of the converted Armenians is one of the least studied subjects in contemporary Armenian studies, thus any step made in that direction is worth mentioning. Guided by this logic “Noravank” Foundation presents the article by Ohan Sasunian from the Diaspora which tells about the family of the converted Armenians from Diarbekir. We find it necessary to mention that the article is based on the studies made right at the spot and personal impressions which make it even more remarkable.

Ohan Sasunyan

http://www.noravank.am/en/?page=analitics&nid=2046

[hipeter924]

Re: Turkey's Hidden Armenians

Saw that a while ago, it was pretty interesting.