Turkey considering withdraw from the F-35 program

[jameson]

Re: Turkey considering withdraw from the F-35 program

they will work close economically, like the US and China have been doing, but that is where it stops. In geo-political field they will still be fighting to get the Caucasus, and that is what matters. The Russian Iranian relationship is not as good as one would think, was it not last year that Russia refused selling Iran the S300?
And why should Russia betray Armenia to get better relationship with a power they can't control? Right now we are their only ally in the Caucasus, their last base in the Caucasus.
Think about this Turkey leaves NATO and tells the West to go and screw itself, and joins Russia and Iran in an alliance and Russia screws it's relationship with Armenia. Russia will lose its base in Armenia, Georgia still hates Russia. Why no invite America in Russias place? Having US Marines guarding the border now with their new enemy. What do you say about that?

Turkey wont leave NATO..

our biggest economic partner is Europe.. WE will lose half of our economic power if we say screw yourselves to Europeans.. We are selling so many things to Europe..


by the way your singnature is racist.. I do not know how mods allowed such signature..

[KarotheGreat]

Re: Turkey considering withdraw from the F-35 program

If they forge alliances with Iran and Russia, which they are slowly doing, they can very well survive without the West. Their anti-Israeli rhetoric has gotten Turkey many friends in the Middle East and Muslim World. Not to mention them increasing cooperation with China. In my eyes they are sick of being the lapdog of the West, and given their potential for regional power, they want to live up to it. And yes Russia and Iran are both eager to forge alliances with Turkey, and are doing so especially in economic sphere. Watch out for the Iran-Turkey-Russia power axis.

they will work close economically, like the US and China have been doing, but that is where it stops. In geo-political field they will still be fighting to get the Caucasus, and that is what matters. The Russian Iranian relationship is not as good as one would think, was it not last year that Russia refused selling Iran the S300?
And why should Russia betray Armenia to get better relationship with a power they can't control? Right now we are their only ally in the Caucasus, their last base in the Caucasus.
Think about this Turkey leaves NATO and tells the West to go and screw itself, and joins Russia and Iran in an alliance and Russia screws it's relationship with Armenia. Russia will lose its base in Armenia, Georgia still hates Russia. Why no invite America in Russias place? Having US Marines guarding the border now with their new enemy. What do you say about that?

[Mos]

Re: Turkey considering withdraw from the F-35 program

The only reason Turkey is where it is now is because of the West, especially the US. Do you think the US, and it's patriotic elite, will accept Turkey screwing them over. If they do that they will be public enemy number one next to Iran.
How long can Turkey survive without the West, because Russia and Turkey are competitors in the Caucasus and will stay that way till one of the accepts the others rule over the mountain range.

If they forge alliances with Iran and Russia, which they are slowly doing, they can very well survive without the West. Their anti-Israeli rhetoric has gotten Turkey many friends in the Middle East and Muslim World. Not to mention them increasing cooperation with China. In my eyes they are sick of being the lapdog of the West, and given their potential for regional power, they want to live up to it. And yes Russia and Iran are both eager to forge alliances with Turkey, and are doing so especially in economic sphere. Watch out for the Iran-Turkey-Russia power axis.

[londontsi]

Re: Turkey considering withdraw from the F-35 program

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/features/will-israel-soon-be-a-client-of-turkey-s-army-1.337877

Will Israel soon be a client of Turkey's army?

The Turkish army is not just an army. Via its pension fund, Oyak, it also controls civilian businesses worth billions of dollars. Now, the government is trying to curtail its economic might.

By Zvi Bar'el

With an annual budget of $12.2 billion, the Turkish army is one of the world's largest purchasers. One giant acquisition it is now about to make is for 109 helicopters worth some $4 billion, with an option for an additional 300 helicopters.

Two firms are competing for this juicy contract - the American aircraft corporation Sikorsky, which manufactures the Black Hawk helicopter, and the Italian firm Augusta Westland. Both are offering not only enticing prices but also other benefits.

Sikorsky, for example, is promising to give Turkey a contract to repair planes it has sold to Third World countries. It also agreed to buy 109 helicopters from Ankara that were manufactured in Turkey under license from Sikorsky; these will then be resold to other countries. Finally, it offered to build a regional support base for its Black Hawks in Turkey.

Will Israel, which in the past has repaired Turkish helicopters, become a client of Turkey if the Turks decide to buy the American helicopters? It would be an interesting role reversal. But Augusta Westland has also come up with a tempting proposal. It has promised to let Turkey participate in building its helicopters, so that it can become a helicopter manufacturer in its own right.

And while the Turkish army is busy mulling where to put its billions, Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan is busy clipping its wings. The defense budget is just one source of the army's income. It also has another important source: Oyak, the Armed Forces Pension Fund, which manages the military's pension funds and has become the largest commercial corporation in Turkey, with holdings of billions of dollars.

Best of both worlds

So far, Oyak has been able to enjoy the best of both worlds. As a corporation operating on the army's behalf, it enjoys special tax benefits and advantages in competing for government tenders. At the same time, it invests in civilian companies that provide goods and services completely unrelated to military or security equipment. Among others, it owns a cement company, iron manufactories and a plant that produces Renault vehicles.

The Renault Fluence cars that are sold in Israel are manufactured by Oyak Renault, so any vehicle of this kind bought in Israel puts money directly in the Turkish army's pockets. According to Turkish media reports, the company also plans to sell some 100,000 electric Fluences in Israel and Denmark over the next few years. Anyone wondering about the current state of relations between Israel and Turkey should note the volume of business that civilian companies owned by the Turkish army are doing with Israel.

Oyak owns some 60 companies of this kind, and until now, they have not been subject to oversight by the entity that supervises the activities of government offices and government companies. Thus on one hand, Oyak could say that since it runs civilian companies, it is not subject to government oversight. But on the other hand, it could demand the privileges offered to government companies.

The relationship between Turkey's army and the Turkish economy is structurally similar to that of the Revolutionary Guards in Iran: The latter also have an independent economic base comprised of manufacturing and service companies. In Turkey, this structure was established in 1961, after the military revolt.

The rationale was to supply retired soldiers and officers with a solid income in addition to their relatively small military pensions, and thus make it possible for them to enjoy a quality of life "appropriate to their social status." Career soldiers were required to contribute 10 percent of their salaries to the fund, and soldiers doing their compulsory service, who won't even receive a pension from it, had to contribute 5 percent.

But from a mere pension fund, it became an octopus with many tentacles. And now, the government has decided to rein it in.

Legislation adopted last week, which the army opposed, subjects Oyak to what is known as the oversight court. This institution is not a real court; rather, it resembles Israel's state comptroller. But its decisions cannot be appealed, and in that way, it resembles Israel's Supreme Court.

The oversight court reports to the Turkish parliament, where Erdogan's Justice and Development Party has a majority. Thus the party will now know what the pension fund is doing. In addition, all of Oyak's special privileges are being done away with, including the tax benefits and discounts on various government fees. The result is that Erdogan now has the army by its short hairs.

In effect, Erdogan adopted the conclusions of a study published by the Institute for Economic and Social Research in August 2010. The study recommended that the army be separated from its economic concerns for fear of conflicts of interests. But even more serious, according to the report's authors, is that the special benefits the fund offers its members, who are all military personnel, creates a privileged social status protected from the vicissitudes of the country's economy, and thus "constitutes an obstacle to democracy."

The report also warned that if Oyak continued to exist in its present format, it could harm Turkey's chances of joining the European Union, since it has a negative influence over the country's democratic processes. That is a good excuse for a government that in any case wants to reduce the army's influence on both society and the economy.

Despite the new law and the army's criticism of it, there is no need to feel sorry for the Turkish army's economic conglomerate. It will continue to produce cement and cars, market its products worldwide and enjoy huge profits. It will merely have slightly stiffer competition inside Turkey and be forced to pay somewhat higher corporate taxes.

And military personnel, upon retiring, will continue to benefit from a double pension - one from the government and one from Oyak, whose policy is to supply every career soldier "with an apartment and a car."

[KarotheGreat]

Re: Turkey considering withdraw from the F-35 program

Turkey is at an interesting crossroads in its foreign policy. In my opinion, it just wants to become the leading force of the Muslim world/Middle East, and thus it's been cooling its relations with US and Israel for this. It has realised it has a much stronger position in being the leader of Muslim world than being the lap dog for the West. One alliance to look out for is Turkey-Russia which directly affects us (and in a bady way of course).

The only reason Turkey is where it is now is because of the West, especially the US. Do you think the US, and it's patriotic elite, will accept Turkey screwing them over. If they do that they will be public enemy number one next to Iran.
How long can Turkey survive without the West, because Russia and Turkey are competitors in the Caucasus and will stay that way till one of the accepts the others rule over the mountain range.

[UrMistake]

Re: Turkey considering withdraw from the F-35 program

How good is for one to be the leader of corrupt Arab regimes?

[Mos]

Re: Turkey considering withdraw from the F-35 program

Turkey is at an interesting crossroads in its foreign policy. In my opinion, it just wants to become the leading force of the Muslim world/Middle East, and thus it's been cooling its relations with US and Israel for this. It has realised it has a much stronger position in being the leader of Muslim world than being the lap dog for the West. One alliance to look out for is Turkey-Russia which directly affects us (and in a bady way of course).

[KarotheGreat]

Re: Turkey considering withdraw from the F-35 program

Turkey is planning to manufacture its own 5th Generation fighters, nevermind they can't even get their own simple trainer off the ground for what is now over five years.

They like to call the F-16s that they assemble in Turkey as a "indigenous" and their new Tank as "indigenous" (70% of the contracts were from outside technology).

They have however came up with a "indigenous" Ultralight UAV (they call it mosquito) carrying a large laser guided rocket with a range of 150 km (UAV) and 8km (rocket). The concept is from a Canadian ultralight design called the Mosquito.

The biggest connection between Turkey and USA is defence contracts. If this keeps detoriating and Turkey turns more toward China and Korea (in defense) then things can change dramatically between the two countries.
So far US is not happy with Turkey in regards to Flottila incident, Turkey replacing Israel with China in the Anatolian Eagle war games, getting closer and working behind US with Iran, and preceived Islamic government of Erdogan. The US has also shown concern in regards of sharring F-16 info with China during their joint exercises where Turkey denies any info transfer.
So far US has refused to give source codes of the weaponry of the upgraded F-16s to Turkey and has asked for an additional 20Billion for the 116 F-35s on order. Also US refuses any help in regards to PKK activities in Northern Iraq.

Recently Israel has shown iterest to help Cyprus dig for oil in Aegean sea. Turkish responce has been "this will be an act of War".

Now that you posted this and the Neo-Ottoman diplomacy of Erdogan comes to me as a an act of the new government of Turkey trying to overstep its boundaries. The only reason Turkey exists today is because of the US, because at the end of WWII Stalin was ready to invade Turkey, but the US saved it. Now the question is how long until the US decides it doesn't need Turkey anymore. The US right now is still the most powerful nation on this planet, militarily or economically, whether we like it or not. The moment the US decides that it doesn't need Turkey anymore it will search for a replacement for Turkey and that is the moment that Turkey will become an enemy of the West. The question is how long can Turkey survive without the US and NATO support.

[Eddo211]

Problems persist with the US on fighter planes

23 January 2011, Sunday / ERCAN YAVUZ, ANKARA
Problems persist with the US on fighter planes

Turkey is seriously reconsidering the myriad agreements it has signed with the US, as well as its participation in an international consortium for the procurement of new generation fighter jets, due to rising costs and persisting problems originating from the American side.

Turkey is now seeking new ways to sidestep difficulties in the procurement of F-16 fighter planes, which it has been jointly producing with the US since 1987, due to the delayed delivery by the US authorities of some of the plane�s parts and accessories. There have been serious doubts as to whether Turkey�s plan to purchase 100 F-35 fighter planes would ever materialize, as the country is thinking about withdrawing from the consortium following the hike in costs that resulted from other countries leaving from the consortium.

With 240 F-16s, Turkey has the third largest fleet of these fighter jets after the US and Israel. Turkey chose the F-16 to use in its air force in the early 1980s, and Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAİ) was established soon after the decision. Between 1987 and 1995, TAİ assembled 152 planes in the first phase of the F-16 project. The second phase took place between 1995 and 1999, and 80 planes were assembled. Turkey received its first overseas order for F-16 planes in 1993 from the Egyptian air force and assembled 46 planes for them.

Recently TAI upgraded the first of 17 planes for Jordan�s air force within the context of a modernization program. Several Turkey-made planes have also been dispatched to Pakistan.

In total TAİ has assembled 278 F-16s since it first began operations in 1987. During production, 29 planes were produced with no mistakes and three of them were considered �perfect.� Considering that only nine F-16 planes are produced as perfect out of 4,000 fighter jets in the world, Turkey�s success is conspicuous.

Turkey suspended production of the F-16 in 2000, but these fighter jets still remain the backbone of the Turkish armed forces.

Strained ties delayed delivery of plane accessories

As the agreement between the US and Turkey expired in 2000, Turkey has continued to work with Israel in modernizing the F-16s. Turkey has attempted to compensate for several mistakes that occurred while working with the US through several deals with Israel. The fundamental problem was that the US did not hand the F-16s directly to the Turkish Air Forces and it required TAİ-made planes be tested in the US before the eventual delivery to the Turkish Air Forces.

The US had also refused to provide source codes for the software of F-16s to Turkey since the inception of the joint production. Tensions in the relations between the US and Turkey have recently spawned a series of crises in this particular sphere, a possibility which Turkey has overlooked for years.

A senior official at the Turkish Undersecretariat for the Defense Industry (SSM) confided in Today�s Zaman that the US is not willing to provide vital parts of the F-16 planes to Turkey in contrast to agreements the two countries have signed in the past few years.

The same senior official said the US delayed the fulfillment its duties specified in the agreements it signed with Turkey between 1987 and 1995 and that this has caused serious problems in modernization of F-16s.

The official lamented that Turkey is experiencing very serious problems in obtaining parts and accessories for the planes as ties with Israel collapsed, and that he finds it noteworthy to stress that the US administration has made congressional approval a precondition of selling any sort of weaponry and military equipment.

Last October the US expressed concerns that Turkey was using US-made F-16s in the Turkey-China aerial exercises, which took place in the Central Anatolian town of Konya, but Turkey reassured the US administration that no US-made jets were used in the joint drill.

Turkey decided to modernize 165 F-16 planes on Dec. 11, 2009 and several Israeli firms were competing to win the tender, along with Turkey�s TUSAŞ and HAVELSAN. All projects between Turkey and Israel in the areas of military training and cooperation were frozen in mid-June after the lethal May 31 Israeli raid on the Mavi Marmara, which was carrying humanitarian aid to Gaza, leaving left nine civilians dead. The two countries were set to realize a $757 million plane and tank modernization project but this project was also shelved. The Turkish government decided to give the modernization tender to Turkish firms after Turkish-Israeli ties became strained.

A $240 million modernization project was given to Turkish companies, but 30 percent of the plane�s parts will be provided by the US military behemoth Lockheed Martin.

Turkey is also considering its participation in the world�s largest military consortium that is planning to produce 3,000 F-35 fighter jets. Turkey is the ninth country to take part in the production process of the F-35 warplane project. The other countries are the US, the UK, Italy, the Netherlands, Australia, Denmark, Canada and Norway. Turkey is expected to purchase 100 F-35 jets in the next 15 to 20 years. Rising costs pushed several countries to withdraw from the $280 billion project, and the same senior official said Turkey might also consider withdrawing.

The Defense Industry Executive Committee (SSİK), under the aegis of Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, will make its final decision in April. The SSİK is seeking ways to jointly produce some parts of F-35 fighter planes with the American General Electric Co. and the Rolls-Royce Group in Turkey.

Turkey is also deliberating the exchange of its F-16s for F-35s within a reasonable time period. Turkey is expected to pay nearly $11 billion for 100 F-35 fighter jets. Citing rising costs in production, the consortium is asking Turkey for an additional $4 billion for the F-35s, but Turkey is reluctant to pay this amount. As some countries have withdrawn from the project, Turkey will reportedly have to pay up to $25 billion for the project.

Turkey is planning to manufacture its own 5th Generation fighters, nevermind they can't even get their own simple trainer off the ground for what is now over five years.

They like to call the F-16s that they assemble in Turkey as a "indigenous" and their new Tank as "indigenous" (70% of the contracts were from outside technology).

They have however came up with a "indigenous" Ultralight UAV (they call it mosquito) carrying a large laser guided rocket with a range of 150 km (UAV) and 8km (rocket). The concept is from a Canadian ultralight design called the Mosquito.

The biggest connection between Turkey and USA is defence contracts. If this keeps detoriating and Turkey turns more toward China and Korea (in defense) then things can change dramatically between the two countries.
So far US is not happy with Turkey in regards to Flottila incident, Turkey replacing Israel with China in the Anatolian Eagle war games, getting closer and working behind US with Iran, and preceived Islamic government of Erdogan. The US has also shown concern in regards of sharring F-16 info with China during their joint exercises where Turkey denies any info transfer.
So far US has refused to give source codes of the weaponry of the upgraded F-16s to Turkey and has asked for an additional 20Billion for the 116 F-35s on order. Also US refuses any help in regards to PKK activities in Northern Iraq.

Recently Israel has shown iterest to help Cyprus dig for oil in Aegean sea. Turkish responce has been "this will be an act of War".