Do you think Turkey has become a regional Leader?

[Artashes]

Re: Do you think Turkey has become a regional Leader?

I don't know who edited my post, but I'll respond anyway. There will be no continuation of genocide. That is a baseless accusation. You seem to be forgetting that the present-day Turks are at fault for DENYING genocide, not COMMITTING it.

Armenia (or at least independent Armenia) never had a Muslim majority population.

I don't understand what you mean by ruin. Trade is always mutually beneficial.

Another baseless comment. Establishment of relations between Turkey and Armenia would mean that Turkey accepts that Artsakh is Armenian land. As such, they will have no choice but to criticize the Azeri threats of war.

Hrai, believe me, I would like that land as well. If we could magically replace all the Turks in Western Armenia with Armenians, we would do it. But we can't. Armenia cannot be in favor of self-determination in one area (Artsakh) but against it in another (Western Armenia). What are we going to say, that because those lands were historically Armenian the desires of the current day residents don't matter?

It's a different story to ask for landmarks such as Ararat (and Little Ararat) and Ani. They are literally right on the border and are not populated. There will be no irridentism. This is where being friendly with Turkey comes in handy. If we can CONVINCE them that those areas have no significance to Turks (which shouldn't be difficult because nobody argues otherwise), they may be PERSUADED to return this land.

Again, only possible with friendly attitude. We can achieve nothing against Turkey with antagonistic attitude.

Two points --- trade is always mutually beneficial --- not so. The push for a global economy by (deep pockets) is actually for the benefit of deep pockets. Once an areas economy is dependent on that trade then they (deep pockets) have that area by the weblos. Many small communities in this world are resisting globalization for this reason. Am not saying all trade with others is bad. Am saying this push for globalization and the
zeals that are pushing it don't have the ordinary persons best interest at heart.
Second --- if one says the truth to another and that other feels antagonized that doed not mean the one who said the truth is antagonizing the other. That is the --- CON --- that the simi hominoid runs.
The heartless cons we are dealing with are not going to change.
We cannot forget who we are dealing with.
Those who are descended of the actual butchers that want to keep all that the butchers stole and defend the butchers by denial are as incideous as death.
Artashes

[davidoga]

Re: Do you think Turkey has become a regional Leader?

Land reclamation is part and parcel of demands from illegal turc occupiers.

I don't know who edited my post, but I'll respond anyway. There will be no continuation of genocide. That is a baseless accusation. You seem to be forgetting that the present-day Turks are at fault for DENYING genocide, not COMMITTING it.

Armenia (or at least independent Armenia) never had a Muslim majority population.

I don't understand what you mean by ruin. Trade is always mutually beneficial.

Another baseless comment. Establishment of relations between Turkey and Armenia would mean that Turkey accepts that Artsakh is Armenian land. As such, they will have no choice but to criticize the Azeri threats of war.

Hrai, believe me, I would like that land as well. If we could magically replace all the Turks in Western Armenia with Armenians, we would do it. But we can't. Armenia cannot be in favor of self-determination in one area (Artsakh) but against it in another (Western Armenia). What are we going to say, that because those lands were historically Armenian the desires of the current day residents don't matter?

It's a different story to ask for landmarks such as Ararat (and Little Ararat) and Ani. They are literally right on the border and are not populated. There will be no irridentism. This is where being friendly with Turkey comes in handy. If we can CONVINCE them that those areas have no significance to Turks (which shouldn't be difficult because nobody argues otherwise), they may be PERSUADED to return this land.

Again, only possible with friendly attitude. We can achieve nothing against Turkey with antagonistic attitude.

[hrai]

Re: Do you think Turkey has become a regional Leader?

Turkey will never recognize the genocide if they see Armenia as an enemy state. Benefits of opening border include
1. Increasing likelihood of genocide recognition. Increased likelihood of continuation of genocide. What happened when Armenia had a large number of muslims in country?
2. Exponentially increase the economy. Armenian economy would be ruined by turc and baboons
3. Putting pressure on Azerbaijan and pretty much reducing the threat of war to zero. After turc and baboons shake hands round Armenia's neck there really would be zero chance of war.

There is no down side. There is only downside.

And yes, I quoted the wrong post, buy you do mention land reclamation elsewhere.

Land reclamation is part and parcel of demands from illegal turc occupiers.

[davidoga]

Re: Do you think Turkey has become a regional Leader?

I feel compelled to say I totally agree with keeping that (false) border closed. And that includes the fantasy that the simi hominoid suddenly grows a heart and finds eyes that can see the truth. I know it's hard but somehow we have to endure.
Artashes

Turkey will never recognize the genocide if they see Armenia as an enemy state. Benefits of opening border include 1. Increasing likelihood of genocide recognition 2. Exponentially increase the economy 3. Putting pressure on Azerbaijan and pretty much reducing the threat of war to zero.

There is no down side.

And yes, I quoted the wrong post, buy you do mention land reclamation elsewhere.

[Artashes]

Re: Do you think Turkey has become a regional Leader?

This false border should remain closed until land reparations are made and even then the new border should be kept closed until a time when Armenia would be secure enough to allow it open.
I see no benefits from opening especially if land reparations improve Armenia's position.

I feel compelled to say I totally agree with keeping that (false) border closed. And that includes the fantasy that the simi hominoid suddenly grows a heart and finds eyes that can see the truth. I know it's hard but somehow we have to endure.
Artashes

[Artashes]

Re: Do you think Turkey has become a regional Leader?

Artashes, do you really believe that Armenia is prepared to reclaim this land? What will happen to all the Turks there? Are you prepared for Armenia to become a Muslim-majority nation?

Oly smokes how did you read any of that into what I just wrote?
Artashes

[davidoga]

Re: Do you think Turkey has become a regional Leader?

Once again you are wrong. It is you that spews nationalist turk crap under the guise of being friendly.
You have come to an Armenian site with the primary goal of pointing out that you are (?human?). Like all turks you say let's talk but no --- STOLEN --- land shall be given back. So it's not turkish national crap when you say : but we(turk) get to keep all that we've stolen by --- MURDERING --- the indigenous people's but I'm a far right wing nationalist by saying that was my families land not --- any --- turk. Standard turk crap subterfuge. You say you are all for recognition of AG in this post but in previous post you use words like maybe should and might be. Like all but one turk I've heard you claim no relation to the inhuman turks that committed these horrendous atrocities. You say you are going to tell us how you became more sensitive to Armenians (turkish atrocities) but you don't have time now but you have plenty of time to spew turk garbage.
I'm still waiting for how you became more sensitive.
You do not need to address me any more. I'm not interested in your plea to be recognized as a human or your phony crap or accusations .
An Armenian

Artashes, do you really believe that Armenia is prepared to reclaim this land? What will happen to all the Turks there? Are you prepared for Armenia to become a Muslim-majority nation?

[Artashes]

Re: Do you think Turkey has become a regional Leader?

Artashes and Mos,

Your ideology is not much different from Grey Wolves of Turkey. Full of discrimination and just based on nationalist/ethnic brotherhood.

You are even against me, someone who always speaks out against Turkish nationalism. You are against me just because I am Turkish.

For extreme right-winger people like you 'Only Armenians can be real 'brothers' of Armenians'. Just like the extreme right-wing Grey Wolves who say 'Only Turks can be 'brothers' of Turks.'

Why do you live your life based on discrimination ? Sad.

I spoke clearly. Turkey should apologise and accept the genocide. Compensation can be discussed. But border change ? Don't be crazy. So, if you think like that, how far back to the past does the whole world have to go ? So many borders would have to change then !!! I am not saying this from a 'Turkish perspective'. I am saying this as a realist.

So difficult to talk to a nationalist....Turkish, Bulgarian, Armenian, English, Zambian or whatever.

Once again you are wrong. It is you that spews nationalist turk crap under the guise of being friendly.
You have come to an Armenian site with the primary goal of pointing out that you are (?human?). Like all turks you say let's talk but no --- STOLEN --- land shall be given back. So it's not turkish national crap when you say : but we(turk) get to keep all that we've stolen by --- MURDERING --- the indigenous people's but I'm a far right wing nationalist by saying that was my families land not --- any --- turk. Standard turk crap subterfuge. You say you are all for recognition of AG in this post but in previous post you use words like maybe should and might be. Like all but one turk I've heard you claim no relation to the inhuman turks that committed these horrendous atrocities. You say you are going to tell us how you became more sensitive to Armenians (turkish atrocities) but you don't have time now but you have plenty of time to spew turk garbage.
I'm still waiting for how you became more sensitive.
You do not need to address me any more. I'm not interested in your plea to be recognized as a human or your phony crap or accusations .
An Armenian

[hrai]

Re: Do you think Turkey has become a regional Leader?

The apology and border opening is the first priority. We have to be very careful in dealing with Turks even when it comes to border opening (which isn't a concession from them, but an international obligation).

This false border should remain closed until land reparations are made and even then the new border should be kept closed until a time when Armenia would be secure enough to allow it open.
I see no benefits from opening especially if land reparations improve Armenia's position.

[Mos]

Re: Do you think Turkey has become a regional Leader?

Mos,

Land compensation, IMO, is the only appropriate kind of compensation. Armenia is (or at least it should be) too proud to take money from Turkey. However, asking for sites literally on the border, such as Ararat and Ani, is reasonable. There are no Turks living here, so the concept of self-determination cannot be used. These sights mean nothing to Turkey, but everything to us.

However, this is only a reality if Turkey stops seeing Armenia as an enemy state. Therefore, opening of border and establishment of relations should a priority.

The apology and border opening is the first priority. Of course, I would want land compensation and I think it's fully justified because we were cleansed and killed from our historic homeland. I just don't know how realistic land concessions would be at the current point given political situation.

A good amount of Turks want to eliminate Armenia and finish "off the job". We have to be very careful in dealing with Turks even when it comes to border opening (which isn't a concession from them, but an international obligation).