Pentagon Attack on 911

[Sip]

Re: Pentagon Attack on 911

This is a serious topic.

Emmm yah ... just read the first page and you'll notice the thread starts off like this:

As far as I'm concerned, its official, that was not a passenger airliner which attacked the Pentagon on the morning of September 11, 2001.

Yah it's already OFFICIAL. So what are we discussing?

...

My suspicion about the events of September 11, 2001 started on September 12, 2001. I don't know what it was that made me suspicious, I guess it was a gut feeling that comes along with age.

... "gut feelings" and scientific truths don't always coincide. One MUST learn to separate the two.

And I know it's hard to believe, but it actually goes DOWNhill from there Such statements like the above are not the real problem. The real problem is the attitude that goes along with them. You want examples? Here's an example (just from the first page):

Siggie: Never any shortage of conspiracy theorists... There's also a Flat Earth Society... doesn't make it true.
Armenian: Are you really that blind?
Fedayeen: Its people like you who are conspiracy theorists...
Armenian: These people are the sleeping masses - the sheeple - who are always lead to the slaughter house.

... and goes on and on and on.

Skhara, do you honestly believe one can have a "scientific" debate with the likes of Armenian and Fedayeen in threads like this? Their views are so skewed and they are so blinded by their biases that even a hint of disagreement with their version of how the world must be immediately sends them down the insult lane.

As far as the "bull sh!t" video, that's the title of the show (by Penn and Teller). It's not an adjective that I came up with. The link to google is higher up in this thread.

[Armenian]

Re: Pentagon Attack on 911

Now, this IS funny: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNfBTCGmk-M

[Sip]

Re: Pentagon Attack on 911

I'd vote for Jon Stewart if he ever ran for president

[Fedayeen]

Re: Pentagon Attack on 911

Now, this IS funny: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNfBTCGmk-M

hahaha

[Lamb Boy]

Re: Pentagon Attack on 911

I suppose I should clarify my stance on these issues before continuing. The Loose Change documentary has problems and is certainly NOT the defining piece for these issues imho. They do however raise some interesting points although I feel they spend too much time covering certain weaker arguments rather than concentrating on what I personally feel are the true gaping holes in the official 911 report.

After watching the Press for Truth documentary (THNX SKHARA) I think it would be impossible to deny that our government is hiding more than a couple things in regards to these issues which ultimately make me wonder "Why?” Do I think that our entire government is "in" on whatever actually happened on that day? No. Do they know more than they are letting us in on? Imo yes, but why are they keeping secrets from us? I wish I could believe otherwise but the writing seems to be on the wall. To think that anyone here actually wants to believe that our government is actually conspiring against its own ppl is absurd. I'm an anti-dispensationalist which means I don't even think that Evangelist should go around preaching the fake rapture which makes ppl long for the end of the world which is hella twisted (I'll write about that soon enough). By that I mean I'm not some crazy apocalypse fanatic who hates his life so much that I wish the world would end and at the same time hopes that what we see before us is the beginning of the end. I just feel that we're surrounded by crazy fanatics who no longer view themselves as servants of the people and instead fabricate their own false reality to suit their own power trippin' purposes from their false religious backgrounds and other influential ideolgies.

The movie "Tora Tora Tora" is interesting to mention here because it was, and is still believed, that our government knew about the attacks that were about to befall Pearl Harbor, yet, as this conspiracy theory movie goes, the powers that be let it happen in order to bring us into the second World War. The main thing that ppl who believe in this theory cite as the prime example in our government knowing before hand about these attacks is the fact that every aircraft carrier was gone at the time of the attack which even surprised the Japanese. They thought they were going to be able to cut off our Navy in one sneak attack which was sound in theory ... unless it's less of a sneak attack and more of a letting them through type of deal.

In the same way I feel that the attacks on 911 really provided a catalyst for a new war with Iraq and possibly Iran while allowing politicians to pass some constitution bending/breaking policies to ultimately alter the socio-political landscape for the present day as well as for generations to come. This is where I really feel 911 has left us and it disgusts me to even think that our government turned a blind eye to the warnings or worse had a hand in the events that took place. Their MO for secrecy in regards to these topics is more than telling and has really shaken my foundation.

The elements that I find most concerning, and I'll try to keep it to the science stuff, are:

1. Molten steel found at the bottom of ground zero. If you watch the Brigham Young Professors lecture, which is on Google videos, although only seen through one of the cameras (I saw a copy that was purchased directly from the Utah Valley State College and had better close ups of the slides), you'll find scientifically that jet fuel is incapable of melting steel and especially vaporizing it which was found to have happened to some pieces in the wreckage.

2. The collapse of WTC7 which was merely hit by falling debris and had only a few small fires yet collapsed at free fall speed which is also covered in the physics lecture. Not to mention after a corner of the building was taken out certain principles of physics dictate the building would collapse to that side. He covers all of the principles and shows a video of the collapse that MSNBC did not want to show for whatever reasons.

3. The scientific likelihood that all three buildings would collapse straight down is insanely remote if possible at all in any given chaotic math model.

4. Historically these are the only three modern steel structures to collapse from fire which is also scientifically improbable especially when you consider that it is public lnowledge that the designer of the WTT designed them to take on the impact of a couple of 707 aircraft as he wrote in his own autobiography.

5. The angle at which the pentagon was hit doesn't coincide with what they are telling us which nobody has addressed at this point which astonishes me. We can obviously see that the angle was perpendicular to the side of the building and not steep and straight down like Popular Mechanics debunkers would have us believe. If it were straight down at those speeds the wings would have ripped right off and landed further from the fuselage crash zone. When I was a kid I asked my Dad (the 25,000 hr clocking KC-135 USAF Major and Chief Safety Officer of his base) if the commercial airliner we were in, we were on a flight somewhere, could do a loop and he stated that it would rip the wings off as they are not designed to withstand that many g's. At the speed that the plane was flying it's entirely possible that the plane would have had a high speed stall which would have made it drop from the sky like a rock as in a stall the low/high pressure zones that create lift diminish to the point that the plane just starts to fall. Anyway the popular Mechanics debunkers would have us believe that he plane struck at a 60 degree angle which is seriously impossibly for the angle the impact zone shows. The wings would have ripped off at that speed way before the fuselage hit the Pentagon and at that angle the ROOF would have been hit first. I can cite another example as when I was growing up whenever there was a plane crash my Dad and I would discuss how the crash happened in detail. This example, which would actually be great here, as the plane literally did a split-s from cruising altitude (35k ft) and planted nose first into the ground. The wings ripped off as the pilot tried to straighten the plane. I should get some wreckage photos of that crash as that was one of the worst in history. Created by this icing on the ailerons which was an odd phenomenon of frozen water droplets landing on the ailerons building up slowly and then breaking off after the pilot was compensating on the aileron trim for some time. The result was an aileron position that once the ice broke free flipped the plane over ... These planes are overrated busses and are seriously designed to be flown like one, not to be flown like a missile. I suppose this is my point. It would be like trying to make a Bluebird bus race at NASCAR speeds and hope the thing didn't fall apart in the process.

6. The fireball that traveled down the elevator shaft that was hermetically (sp) sealed (i.e. airtight) that blew the marble panels off the ground floor lobby. Fire does not travel through air tight shafts.

7. The fire that according to the official report was hot enough to weaken steel yet a firefighter radioed in that two lines could have it under control. Plus the picture of the lady in the hole that one of the planes crashed into just looking out. So if it's really that hot then how is she able to just be kicking it out there? Let's also not forget that all metals radiate heat away to surrounding areas which mean that a sustained fire over a long period of time would be required to weaken all of the buildings steel to the point that the entire building collapsed in tandem at free fall speeds.

8. Finally and less scientific is the fact that all the wreckage was quickly whisked away to CHINA before the independent scientific community could also have a chance to review the wreckage. The insurance policy the owner of the towers took out shortly before 911, and every single thing in the Press for Truth documentary.

If nothing else I just ask you to watch the 911 Press for Truth documentary and if you don't find that disagreeable then the physics lecture that is available on Google videos. Have you (Sip or Siggie) watched these yet? I imagine you've both seen the Loose Change documentary, or parts, and found it unpleasant. The two I mentioned above are less fantastic in regards to theories and more just straight up on the information. Seriously though have you guys already seen this material? I'd really like to know just so I can figure out where we're all at ...

[Fedayeen]

Re: Pentagon Attack on 911

Nah usually people like them don't ever bother to read, watch, do some research on their own, read about history and the place they are living, etc...so basically they refuse to come down from their horse...until one of them news channel says "its ok you can come down from your horse"

No need to even go deep, just let them try to explain what happened to building 7...if that does not ring any bells...i don't think even the resurrection of Jesus would

[Fedayeen]

Re: Pentagon Attack on 911

http://www.rawstory.com/news/2006/Lo...tack_0915.html

By the way, did you guys see this that i posted, it shows boeing 757 hitting pentagon just like the other video they released a while ago

[Armenian]

Re: Pentagon Attack on 911

An interesting quote from the book "Galilee Flowers" (pg. 363) written by the famous and much hated anti-Zionist joo Israel Shamir.

The perpetrators of 9/11 are still unknown to us. The instant recovery of a hijacker's passport, intact on the scene of the jet crash should be counted among the most spectacular miracles of all times, well ahead of Daniel's trip into the fiery furnace. The old Babylonian furnace surely had not built up to the temperature of burning jet-fuel. Arab-language flying manuals in the trunk of a car, inaudible videotapes and other conveniently recovered exhibits make of the Moscow trials of 1937 a shining example of justice uncorrupted. The Afghani prisoners of war have been kept away from prying eyes, in the limbo of Guantanamo Bay, lest they disclose the greatest secret of all: their innocence.

On the other hand, there is accumulating evidence of an Israeli Connection. Warning messages on the Israeli network ODIGO were sent to Israelis in Manhattan, in real time, when the planes left their airfields. In all airports utilized by hijackers, one Israeli company ICTS attended to security. It was alleged that xxxish financial companies had sold futures of insurance companies, as if they knew of the impending disaster. A big Israeli company Zim reneged at considerable cost on its lease in the World trade Center.

Israel utilized the 9/11 events to its full capacity: the ongoing massacre in the Palestinian cities is being described as the 'the war on terror'. The Muslim neighbours of Israel were terrorised into passivity by the American rage. Destruction of Afghanistan raised the threshold of the world sensitivity to horror, and made possible the April invasion of Palestinian cities. Probably this is not enough for a 'guilty' verdict, but the same is true about al-Qaeda's alleged involvement.

There is no Islamic terror, but there is an Israeli-American terror of Dar al-Islam. You have not sinned; but you are sinned against. Thus, when the US President and his media pose the question, "what do you do about 'Islamic terror?" I suggest, Your Excellencies, a good xxxish reply, 'What terror?'

[Armenian]

Re: Pentagon Attack on 911

Slip of the tongue perhaps?

Q: This is a question that's been asked by many Americans, but especially by the widows of September 11th. How were we so asleep at the switch? How did a war targeting civilians arrive on our homeland with seemingly no warning?

Rumsfeld: There were lots of warnings. The intelligence information that we get, it sometimes runs into the hundreds of alerts or pieces of intelligence a week. One looks at the worldwide, it's thousands. And the task is to sort through it and see what you can find. And as you find things, the law enforcement officials who have the responsibility to deal with that type of thing -- the FBI at the federal level, and although it is not, it's an investigative service as opposed to a police force, it's not a federal police force, as you know. But the state and local law enforcement officials have the responsibility for dealing with those kinds of issues.

They [find a lot] and any number of terrorist efforts have been dissuaded, deterred or stopped by good intelligence gathering and good preventive work. It is a truth that a terrorist can attack any time, any place, using any technique and it's physically impossible to defend at every time and every place against every conceivable technique. Here we're talking about plastic knives and using an American Airlines flight filed with our citizens, and the missile to damage this building and similar (inaudible) that damaged the World Trade Center. The only way to deal with this problem is by taking the battle to the terrorists, wherever they are, and dealing with them.

DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: And to change that way of living, would strike at the very essence of our country.

And I think all of us have a sense if we imagine the kind of world we would face if the people who bombed the mess hall in Mosul, or the people who did the bombing in Spain, or the people who attacked the United States in New York, shot down the plane over Pennsylvania and attacked the Pentagon, the people who cut off peoples' heads on television to intimidate, to frighten -- indeed the word "terrorized" is just that. Its purpose is to terrorize, to alter behavior, to make people be something other than that which they want to be.

Link: http://www.democrats.com/node/5056

[Armenian]

Re: Pentagon Attack on 911

More tongue slip?

Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6ufakK2fIc