Happy Birthday Ara Baliozian!

[crusader1492]

Re: Happy Birthday Ara Baliozian!

Freaky you don't even understand what William saroyan is saying, he's saying that what ever happens Armenians will survive and nothing in this world can destroy us. That is what he's saying.

Don't bother explaining anything to FreakyFreaky, he has made up his mind to support Ara - damned the truth.

Anyway, it does not surprise me that a "perpetual loser" (with no sense of context), would interpret Saroyan in that way.

Re: Happy Birthday Ara Baliozian!

Respect your elders.

It is not a question of age. One respects he who deserves respect. Age is irrelevant in that regard.

(for under the guise of "dissidence", their agenda is nothing else but westernization)

i assume your favorite alternative is ottomanization? / ara

Thank you for validating my claim and demonstrating in the same blow that you are nothing more than a mediocre propangandist (and not an intellectual) who displays the exact same sort of behaviour as the one he decries by others.

and you, crypto-fascist dupes.
am i glad we don't live in a sovietized or ottomanized country, but in a democracy where free speech is a fundamental human right.

I'm afraid the world (even the armenian one) is not conveniently divided into "democrats" and "fascists" (Willi Münzenberg died a long time ago but his propaganda tricks are still much in use to this day it appears) as you would want your readers to believe.

A genuine intellectual would advocate our nation following its own path on the grounds of its own identity, not present it with this rigged (and totalitarian) choice westernization/ottomanization.

Still I will tell you, of the two alternatives, the first one is the worst for westernization destroys the very spirit of a nation and leads to its enslavement to matter. westernization is the death of a nation, its degeneration into anamorphic cattle. As long as the spirit lives, there is hope. With westernization there is none whatsoever.

Btw anyone who invokes democracy in an argument/discussion instantly qualifies himself as either a dupe or a charlatan. With your level of knowledge and experience, one can only opt for the latter.

Too bad I could not find an online version of René Guénon's The Crisis of the Modern World (http://www.amazon.com/Crisis-Modern-.../dp/0900588241).
Chapter 8 "WESTERN ENCROCHMENT" deserves to be quoted here.

It appears you read french so here is an excerpt just for you:

"Il est vrai que, quand certaines passions s'en mêlent, les mêmes choses peuvent, suivant les circonstances, se trouver appréciées de façons fort diverses, voire même toutes contraires : ainsi, quand la résistance à une invasion étrangère est le fait d'un peuple occidental, elle s'appelle « patriotisme » et est digne de tous les éloges ; quand elle est le fait d'un peuple oriental, elle s'appelle « fanatisme » ou « xénophobie » et ne mérite plus que la haine ou le mépris. D'ailleurs, n'est ce pas au nom du « Droit », de la « Liberté », de la « justice » et de la « Civilisation » que les Européens prétendent imposer partout leur domination, et interdire à tout homme de vivre et de penser autrement qu'eux-mêmes ne vivent et ne pensent? On conviendra que le « moralisme » est vraiment une chose admirable, à moins qu'on ne préfère conclure tout simplement, comme nous-même, que, sauf des exceptions d'autant plus honorables qu'elles sont plus rares, il n'y a plus guère en Occident que deux sortes de gens, assez peu intéressantes l'une et l'autre : les naïfs qui se laissent prendre à ces grands mots et qui croient à leur « mission civilisatrice », inconscients qu'ils sont de la barbarie matérialiste dans laquelle ils sont plongés, et les habiles qui exploitent cet état d'esprit pour la satisfaction de leurs instincts de violence et de cupidité. En tout cas, ce qu'il y a de certain, c'est que les Orientaux ne menacent personne et ne songent guère à envahir l'Occident d'une façon ou d'une autre ; ils ont, pour le moment, bien assez à faire de se défendre contre l'oppression européenne, qui risque de les atteindre jusque dans leur esprit-, et il est au moins curieux de voir les agresseurs se poser en victimes."

This was written in the 1920s btw.
80 years later one still has to argue against the same fallacies. Quite a sysiphian task.
When I am dealing with people such as you, I cannot help but be reminded of the following:

It was then simple enough to attempt to show them the absurdity of their teaching. Within my small circle I talked to them until my throat ached and my voice grew hoarse. I believed that I could finally convince them of the danger inherent in the Marxist follies. But I only achieved the contrary result. It seemed to me that immediately the disastrous effects of the Marxist Theory and its application in practice became evident, the stronger became their obstinacy.
The more I debated with them the more familiar I became with their argumentative tactics. At the outset they counted upon the stupidity of their opponents, but when they got so entangled that they could not find a way out they played the trick of acting as innocent simpletons. Should they fail, in spite of their tricks of logic, they acted as if they could not understand the counter arguments and bolted away to another field of discussion. They would lay down truisms and platitudes; and, if you accepted these, then they were applied to other problems and matters of an essentially different nature from the original theme. If you faced them with this point they would escape again, and you could not bring them to make any precise statement. Whenever one tried to get a firm grip on any of these apostles one's hand grasped only jelly and slime which slipped through the fingers and combined again into a solid mass a moment afterwards. If your adversary felt forced to give in to your argument, on account of the observers present, and if you then thought that at last you had gained ground, a surprise was in store for you on the following day. The ??? would be utterly oblivious to what had happened the day before, and he would start once again by repeating his former absurdities, as if nothing had happened. Should you become indignant and remind him of yesterday's defeat, he pretended astonishment and could not remember anything, except that on the previous day he had proved that his statements were correct. Sometimes I was dumbfounded. I do not know what amazed me the more--the abundance of their verbiage or the artful way in which they dressed up their falsehoods. I gradually came to hate them.
(...) How futile it was to try to win over such people with argument, seeing that their very mouths distorted the truth, disowning the very words they had just used and adopting them again a few moments afterwards to serve their own ends in the argument!.

"trau' meiner Kunst!" says the ignominious Nibelung to Siegfried in Wagner's opera. You are such a Künstler, Ara, a top-notch con artist.

[KarotheGreat]

Re: Happy Birthday Ara Baliozian!

Freaky you don't even understand what William saroyan is saying, he's saying that what ever happens Armenians will survive and nothing in this world can destroy us. That is what he's saying.

[freakyfreaky]

Re: Happy Birthday Ara Baliozian!

Karo, I'm assuming you either lost all respect for yourself or had none before you lost that last bit of it for me.

Ara can say what he wants because it is a fundamental 'human' right to express onesellf.

Why do I have to answer your questions? I'm not your student. I've posed numerouse questions to Armenian, Virgil, Crusader1492 and Ara's other detractors including you, have any of them been answered? No. Just the same meaningless, unintelligible dribble.

One of Saroyan's most famous quotes implies that we are perpetual losers, did members of the Armenian community disparage him as a self-hating, liar?

We don't get to choose who gets to speak about us from within the Armenian community or without the community.

[freakyfreaky]

Re: Happy Birthday Ara Baliozian!

"I should like to see any power of the world destroy this race, this small tribe of unimportant people, whose history is ended, whose wars have all been fought and lost, whose structures have crumbled, whose literature is unread, whose music is unheard, whose prayers are no longer uttered.
Go ahead, destroy this race. Let us say that it is again 1915. There is war in the world. Destroy Armenia. See if you can do it. Send them from their homes into the desert. Let them have neither bread nor water. Burn their houses and their churches. See if they will not live again. See if they will not laugh again. See if the race will not live again when two of them meet in a beer parlor, twenty years after, and laugh, and speak in their tongue. Go ahead, see if you can do anything about it. See if you can stop them from mocking the big ideas of the world, you sons of b-itches, a couple of Armenians talking in the world, go ahead and try to destroy them."

---William Saroyan

Mr. Saroyan described us as perpetual losers, embraced it and used it to empower us. Certainly, Mr. Saroyan was as wrong as Mr. Baliozian in describing us. He does not identify an nation of Armenia, he claims we lost all our wars when that is obviously not the case. But you wouldn't reduce him to a self-hating Armenian that writes trash would you or a hypocrit.

The concept of Armenians as perpetual losers, if that is what Ara is promoting which I am uncertain it is, has other Armenian sources in the modern era post WWI. One of them is renowned in Armenia, the U.S. and abroad. His name is William Saroyan. Is he trash, is he self-hating, is he degrading the purity of our nation? No. Obviously not. And neither is Ara.

You wouldn't disparage Mr. Saroyan would you? Because, if you did, you'd probably have your Armenian identity revoked in the same manner you have attempted to degrade Mr. Baliozian.

[KarotheGreat]

Re: Happy Birthday Ara Baliozian!

http://groong.usc.edu/news/msg219007.html

FREEDOM OF SPEECH IS LIMITED IN ARMENIA

Lragir
Feb 1 2008
Armenia

The Human Rights Watch report for 2008 states that in Armenia the
reporters continue to encounter threats in their activities.

Among cases of violence the assault on Hovanes Galajyan, editor of
the Iskakan Iravunk Newspaper, is mentioned. The report also mentions
the arson of the cars of the owner of the Im Iravunk Newspaper and
the founder of panorama.am Ara Saghatelyan, and the founder of the
Football Plus Newspaper Suren Baghdasaryan.

The Human Right Watch report mentions the imprisonment of the editor
of the Yerevan Newspaper Arman Babajanyan, considering the sentence
as too severe.

The report also points to the closure of Gala TV, an independent
channel of Gyumri, for avoiding taxes.


--------------------------------------------------------

Note, I am not very fond of HRW. As far as I know, they do not recogize the Armenian genocide. But, who am I to dispute an Armenian media channel that relies on HRW report re: limite free speech in Armenia and the perils journalists face - jail and violence.

Any comment Armenian? Do you realize you sound like an esh? You don't know even basic current event in your fatherland. Poor you.

You guys should really stop attacking Ara, you are only proving his points with each of your keystrokes. Its laughable.

If you believe he shall die a poor, self-hating fool, then ask yourself if he was your any other of our elders, would you subject him or her to this?

Respect your elders.

What are you trying to prove with this and when are you going to awnser to my question about your retarted commands. You come here and defend a person who insultes the country I was born in and it's leaders and evreything it stands for. He insultes it's culture it's heros who have died. Why does he have a right to say anything about Armenia, if he thinks he knows it better let him go it and to it better.

And than you make a retarted commatnt about how Armenia was created, you say Armenia was created becasuse the big powers in the world let us have country by acknolediging us. With that commant you lost the last bit of respect I had for you.

[freakyfreaky]

Re: Happy Birthday Ara Baliozian!

http://groong.usc.edu/news/msg219007.html

FREEDOM OF SPEECH IS LIMITED IN ARMENIA

Lragir
Feb 1 2008
Armenia

The Human Rights Watch report for 2008 states that in Armenia the
reporters continue to encounter threats in their activities.

Among cases of violence the assault on Hovanes Galajyan, editor of
the Iskakan Iravunk Newspaper, is mentioned. The report also mentions
the arson of the cars of the owner of the Im Iravunk Newspaper and
the founder of panorama.am Ara Saghatelyan, and the founder of the
Football Plus Newspaper Suren Baghdasaryan.

The Human Right Watch report mentions the imprisonment of the editor
of the Yerevan Newspaper Arman Babajanyan, considering the sentence
as too severe.

The report also points to the closure of Gala TV, an independent
channel of Gyumri, for avoiding taxes.


--------------------------------------------------------

Note, I am not very fond of HRW. As far as I know, they do not genuinely recogize the Armenian genocide and within their power circles exist a prominent J-ewish neocon who is also simultaneously a prominent figure in the American J-ewish lobby.

But, who am I to dispute an Armenian media channel that relies on an HRW report re: limited free speech in Armenia to cast light on the perils journalists (writers) face - e.g, jail and violence.

Any comment Armenian? Do you realize you sound like an esh? You don't know even basic current events in your fatherland. Poor you.

You guys should really stop attacking Ara, you are only proving his points with each of your keystrokes. Its laughable.

If you believe he shall die a poor, self-hating fool, then ask yourself if he was your or any other of our elders, would you subject him or her to this?

Respect your elders.

[Armenian]

Re: Happy Birthday Ara Baliozian!

Virgil, just keep reminding yourself that you are conversing with a self-hating, egotistical, senile, intellectual dwarf that has made it his life goal to blame his failings as a human being and a writer on his nation... Also bare in mind that Ara is attempting to 'guide' the discussion away from reality. Ara does not merely criticize our "leaders," we all criticize our leaders. Ara specifically attacks and belittles our national heritage, our national culture, our national history - simply, our national being. So, don't listen to his BS and don't fall for his manipulative antics. Go and read his endless crap about Armenians and you'll see what I mean. Thus, this is not about criticism, this is about destructive-demoralizing-insulting, attacks and lies against anything Armenian. And realize that no one can 'debate' or 'rationalize' anything with self-engulfed deranged ignorants like Ara and company. These garbageman of our nation only deserve a hard whip across the head and a good spit on the face.

A question: Does Ara Bozoian has children? If yes, I would like to know whether or not they appear on the Armenian radar...

[Virgil]

Re: Happy Birthday Ara Baliozian!

if you don't care what the world thinks it may be because you prefer to live in a world of illusions and lies. propaganda is your favorite medium. you may fool fools but you cannot fool everybody. you may be a dupe but don't expect everyone to follow you.

yes, we have our own interests. but who is taking care of them?
who was taking care of us when we were being massacred, starved, and deported?

What propaganda? First, you are a intellectual midget. Second, if anyone is making lude generalizations under the banner of "constructive critisisim", it is you. Let me rerun the conversation. You said, "Ask odars about Armenians", in which, I reply, "I don't care what odars think", essentially, everyone has opinions of each other. Again, examples and counter-examples are meaningless, unless you have a statistical sample that validates those opinions, to me, they are hogwash. Furthermore, as mentioned earlier, I could careless what Americans or Canadians think of Armenians, for that matter, for 200 years they have been oppressors of both foreigners and the indigenous populations. Americans enslaved African-Americans for nearly 150 years, why should the burden of absorbing them fall on me and my people? And when has a mutually exclusive population taken the opinions of another mutually exclusive population seriously, as I recall, this is considered imperialism, to reduce your people into sheep that live and work for otars.

Finally, no, I don't care what they think, likewise, I do not think they care what, I, as a Armenian, think of them. There exists no illusion or "deeper meaning" in this assesment. And no, our leaders exist, they currently reside in Armenia, I support them and I surely will take their word over yours, any day of the week.

Ara, you live in the past, you need to wake up and smell the coffee before you die a bitter and lonely man. The fact of the matter is, even if all the leaders during the Ottoman period were corrupt, I would still opt to hold them in high esteem in the same manner Turks hold Ataturk in high esteem for the sake of "national security". People look to the past for strength, you take away their past, you take away their fighting spirit. I am well read in Armenian history, I certainly don't need a egotistical moron such as yourself to convince me of the historical bias that may exist. This bias exists everywhere, live with it and move on.

I don't have to criticize canadian leaders; they criticize one another all the time. only fascists equate criticicism with self-hatred.

NO, you are not criticizing them, you are insulting them. Let me give you a example, this is a act of criticism, "George Washington, although very brave in his efforts, failed to understand that the decisive moment in the battle of "xyz" was when the opposing army penetrated his flanks. Unable to ..." versus, "George Washington was a cheap plantation owner that also enslaved Africans for economic ends, he was, essentially, the modern day slum lord of the colonial Americas", do you see the subtile difference? The latter you are making huge generalization, while the previous, it sounds more schalorly, with in depth reasons as to why you hold opinions of the faults of George Washington, essentially, you are like the "National Enquiror" of the forum, while the rest, like Axel and Armenian, have some objectivity when making statements.

if you think my criticism is motivated by hatred, then i must conclude that you know nothing about armenian literature. armenian writers have been abused, rejected, starved, misunderstood, rejected, and betrayed to the ottoman and soviet authorities by cowards and dupes like you. Read Baronian, Raffi, Bakounts, Zabel Yessayan...read Voskanian, Zarian, Massikian...more armenian writers have been victimized by fascists than political leaders.
it seems to me you define patriotism as recycling the propaganda of those in power. that's not patriotism but brown-nosing. those in power have always needed dupes like you to deceive the majority that that they are in good hands.
fear of honesty and truth is the worst kind of cowardice. and the hardest thing for a coward is to admit his cowardice.

Dumbass, this is not about other Armenian writers, this is about your comments and the insult it brings to national pride. If some half-feed and malnutritioned Chinamen can understand how insulting national pride is hurtful to the will of the people, then, I am certain, a well feed welfare case such as yourself can see that what you do equates to insulting Armenians. Your a idiot, we know where we stand, and hell would freeze over before I apologize to a selfhating idiot like you. How many times over do you have to apologize to Armenians for your lude generalizations? I guess you have not thought about that one, maybe you should.

[arabaliozian]

Re: Happy Birthday Ara Baliozian!

TOYNBEE ON NATIONALISM

********************************

One reason Toynbee decided to be a historian, he tells us in one of his autobiographical books, is to answer the following question: "How had Human Nature prevailed upon itself to perpetrate the atrocities which Turkish hands had committed against the Armenians?"

Further down: "If the Turkish atrocities could be explained as anachronistic outcrops of a residual savagery in the hearts of recent proselytes to a Western way of life, how was a Western historian to explain the apostasy of Germans who were native-born children of the Western household?"

His tentative answer: nationalism.

Nationalism is Toynbee’s bete noire because it divides mankind by idolizing a fraction of it at the expense of the whole, fomenting territorial disputes, and reviving unsettled scores. It makes no difference whether it is Turkish, German, or Armenian nationalism. To say Turkish nationalists are guilty of genocide and Armenian nationalists are not is to confuse military inferiority with moral superiority. Evil does not recognize national barriers and given the right combination of circumstances we are all capable of committing unspeakable acts.

Mankind confronts two options today: war and total extinction on the one hand, and on the other, peace under a single power structure or world government.

Empires thus represent a step forward and nations a step backward: hence Toynbee’s pro-Ottoman stance.