What religion are you?

[yerazhishda]

Re: What religion are you?

At least one of us is using logic as opposed to pure emotion that it has to be so because it has to be so. I must say, right about now, you are looking more and more like those in this thread which you adamantly opposed, who claim those who don't believe in God are not Armenian, or are going to hell. Both of you show more zeal and emotion, than logic and reason.

Believing in God involves both logic and emotion. Schools of thought that try to use either one as a sort of "catch-all" explaination for belief in God usually fail.

But, that is not what I am addressing within your post. I am addressing your claim that saying "not being Christian = non-Armenian" is "zealous". Maybe I was being a bit harsh as this is not an absolute. However I say this in a similar fashion to your claim that an ethnically diverse nation will lead to it's downfall. I agree; if the nation is ethnically diverse on a large scale, the nation will fall.

Similarly, a religiously diverse nation will lead to it's downfall. Would Armenians be so strong if half were Muslims and half were Christians? I do not think so. I think that if you take Christianity away from Armenia then you are changing the fundamental identity of Armenia and Armenians away, just as would happen if mixing on a large scale would change its fundamental identity. Orthodox Christianity has fostered national unity. This is an undeniable fact as it has kept us sustained in the modern world of "integration" and "multi-culturalism". It has kept us united against the Turco-Muslim hordes to our east and west. I would like for anyone to show me the contrary.

[Federate]

Re: What religion are you?

Similarly, a religiously diverse nation will lead to it's downfall.

That depends, I don't want to go too off topic but I think this should be mentioned. There are two scenarios for this:

1) No problem -> The key is to have a strong cultural identity. If you see yourself as Armenian before anything else (Christian, Muslim, whatever), then this will never be a problem. The best example I can think of this case would be Albania. Albania is a country where 50% of people are Agnostic/Atheist and then Muslims and Christians divide roughly equally the other 50%. Yet these people live in complete harmony with mixed religious marriages being very common. They are pretty united despite their major religious differences. The key to their success is putting their Albanianness before their religion/lack of religion.

2) Problem -> The problem starts when you integrate or try to integrate your religion with your national identity, basically everything in reverse of 1. The best example is Lebanon. People there chose to identify themselves by their religion before identifying themselves as Lebanese. For God's [Armenia's ] sake, on your identity card you have to input what religious branch you follow and Christianity is not enough... you have to write Maronite, Syriac etc. And as we have all witnessed, this has led to the near-destruction of the country because they always suspect one religion of trying to undermine the other and never unite against their real enemies (Israel, Syria, USA etc).

So it all depends on how we view ourselves to be. Who is an Armenian? The answer to that question is important.

[Anonymouse]

Re: What religion are you?

Believing in God involves both logic and emotion. Schools of thought that try to use either one as a sort of "catch-all" explaination for belief in God usually fail.

But, that is not what I am addressing within your post. I am addressing your claim that saying "not being Christian = non-Armenian" is "zealous". Maybe I was being a bit harsh as this is not an absolute. However I say this in a similar fashion to your claim that an ethnically diverse nation will lead to it's downfall. I agree; if the nation is ethnically diverse on a large scale, the nation will fall.

Similarly, a religiously diverse nation will lead to it's downfall. Would Armenians be so strong if half were Muslims and half were Christians? I do not think so. I think that if you take Christianity away from Armenia then you are changing the fundamental identity of Armenia and Armenians away, just as would happen if mixing on a large scale would change its fundamental identity. Orthodox Christianity has fostered national unity. This is an undeniable fact as it has kept us sustained in the modern world of "integration" and "multi-culturalism". It has kept us united against the Turco-Muslim hordes to our east and west. I would like for anyone to show me the contrary.

Talking about Christianity and religion is a far cry from talking about God.

I am the first admit and give a place for Armenian Orthodox Christianity as serving a legitimate cultural-identity nexus, however, that's where it stops for me. That's how it's important, but that is also where it ends. It should be promoted as a part of culture, similar to Judaism, where this infusion creates a stronger identity.

[yerazhishda]

Re: What religion are you?

That depends, I don't want to go too off topic but I think this should be mentioned. There are two scenarios for this:

1) No problem -> The key is to have a strong cultural identity. If you see yourself as Armenian before anything else (Christian, Muslim, whatever), then this will never be a problem. The best example I can think of this case would be Albania. Albania is a country where 50% of people are Agnostic/Atheist and then Muslims and Christians divide roughly equally the other 50%. Yet these people live in complete harmony with mixed religious marriages being very common. They are pretty united despite their major religious differences. The key to their success is putting their Albanianness before their religion/lack of religion.

2) Problem -> The problem starts when you integrate or try to integrate your religion with your national identity, basically everything in reverse of 1. The best example is Lebanon. People there chose to identify themselves by their religion before identifying themselves as Lebanese. For God's [Armenia's ] sake, on your identity card you have to input what religious branch you follow and Christianity is not enough... you have to write Maronite, Syriac etc. And as we have all witnessed, this has led to the near-destruction of the country because they always suspect one religion of trying to undermine the other and never unite against their real enemies (Israel, Syria, USA etc).

So it all depends on how we view ourselves to be. Who is an Armenian? The answer to that question is important.

Thanks Federate for providing a well-informed, balanced view. In my post I was mainly thinking about the later (Lebanon) as an example of how religious diversity can undermine national unity.

[ara87]

Re: What religion are you?

Thanks Federate for providing a well-informed, balanced view. In my post I was mainly thinking about the later (Lebanon) as an example of how religious diversity can undermine national unity.

All Armenians talk about the "Wilsonian" borders of Armenia, and yet fail to realize that if had become a reality that there would be many Muslims living in that Armenia, and there descendants would be Armenian Muslims today. Religious diversity only brings down a nation when people are intolerant of other peoples religions.
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As for god(s) in general, i believe that there is some type of higher power whether it be a god(s) or just some kind of a force, and that we'll never know what it is, how it got there, or if it's still there. As for religion i think it came from the need for a purpose in life, why we are here? etc, and to explain the un-explained i.e.

barrier between Mediterranean and a lake breaks thus forming the black sea, wiping out all life around the affected area. Why did it happen? must have been because people were bad.

meteor shower destroys two towns= story of Sodom and Gomorrah= Why did it happen= must have been because they were bad


i think if our knowledge of science was what human kinds was 5-10,000 years ago someone somewhere would say once upon a time there was kingdom called New Orleans, but the people were bad, so they were destroyed by a great flood as punishment form the gods. THings like Mt St Helen's eruption and earthquakes would also be punishment from the gods.


I admit there are somethings about religion you can't disprove or explain through science, but you can't prove them either.

I think people cling to religion b/c they believe that without the threat of hell or a punishable afterlife, people will just be as bad as they want, however most people are good at heart and if someone doesn't fear doing bad things b/c there's no punishment from god, society will usually get him anyways. Which brings up another point, people want to believe in a heaven/hell type thing b/c they want to believe people will get their due, that there's a place where everyone is equal and happy as long as they were good and life, and the bad people who may have lived a better life than them on earth will go to hell for all the bad things they have done

[jgk3]

Re: What religion are you?

And dinosaurs were sinful enough to deserve total annihilation... whatever they did, the worst sins mankind has committed thus far don't seem to level up.

And ice ages might have been a scourge from God on humans, but maybe God was really after the woolly mammoths and the saber tooth tigers.

The bible would do well to have described what kind of sins merited the extinction of entire species, but not of humans, according to such a scheme ara.

[ara87]

Re: What religion are you?

And dinosaurs were sinful enough to deserve total annihilation... whatever they did, the worst sins mankind has committed thus far don't seem to level up.

And ice ages might have been a scourge from God on humans, but maybe God was really after the woolly mammoths and the saber tooth tigers.

The bible would do well to have described what kind of sins merited the extinction of entire species, but not of humans, according to such a scheme ara.

Animals don't get the same mention, they don't have souls and can't sin. As for wolly mammoths and ice ages, people were around back then, but whatever mainly everything was orally passed. Do you think the Israelites even knew of dinosaurs, woolly mammoths, or saber tooth tigers? They aren't going to write in things that happened to soulless lesser creatures when they don't even mention most women in the bible when in regards to genealogical lines, etc

[yerazhishda]

Re: What religion are you?

All Armenians talk about the "Wilsonian" borders of Armenia, and yet fail to realize that if had become a reality that there would be many Muslims living in that Armenia, and there descendants would be Armenian Muslims today. Religious diversity only brings down a nation when people are intolerant of other peoples religions.

This is patently untrue. There may have been Muslims living in the regions but they would be ethnic Kurds, Turks, Yezidis, whatever. They would not be Armenian. You have to also consider that a large amount of these Muslims would probably move into Turkey proper (as has happened with many a displaced peoples) if the Wilsonian boundaries were ever recognized.

Religious diversity is dangerous to national unity because it has the ability to promote agendas that undermine the aims of the nation. For example, if there existed a sizeable J3wish community in Armenia, their allegiance would be divided between Israel and Armenia. You cannot be a J3w against Israel and the ones who are they are the exception, not the rule. Would Muslim "Armenians" be so willing to protect Artsakhtsis against their Muslim Azeri brethren? That undermines the tenets of their religion.

It boils down to this regardless of the the truth of the specific religion:

1) Religious diversity leads to national disunity
2) No religion leads to national depression/demotivation
3) One major religion (at least nominally) provides national unity which can overcome party lines whereas multiple co-existing religions would be divided strictly among party lines.

[ara87]

Re: What religion are you?

This is patently untrue. There may have been Muslims living in the regions but they would be ethnic Kurds, Turks, Yezidis, whatever. They would not be Armenian. You have to also consider that a large amount of these Muslims would probably move into Turkey proper (as has happened with many a displaced peoples) if the Wilsonian boundaries were ever recognized.

Religious diversity is dangerous to national unity because it has the ability to promote agendas that undermine the aims of the nation. For example, if there existed a sizeable J3wish community in Armenia, their allegiance would be divided between Israel and America. You cannot be a J3w against Israel and the ones who are they are the exception, not the rule. Would Muslim "Armenians" be so willing to protect Artsakhtsis against their Muslim Azeri brethren? That undermines the tenets of their religion.

It boils down to this regardless of the the truth of the specific religion:

1) Religious diversity leads to national disunity
2) No religion leads to national depression/demotivation
3) One major religion (at least nominally) provides national unity which can overcome party lines whereas multiple co-existing religions would be divided strictly among party lines.

I meant that they would be citizens of Armenia. Many of them would have left but many would have stayed, Turks/Kurds/Laz/Hashemis/etc (ok maybe not as many Turks than the others), and their descendants would all speak armenian today, just as you and i are speaking English. Also some of the Muslims may have converted. Maybe the Hashemi's language may have moved closer to it's armenian roots due to interaction with Armenians, or a new dialect of Armenian could have form interaction with other peoples languages, uniting people through words although it would be a "hot mess" like English. The armenian script was the official script for Kurdish in Soviet Armenia, and many Kurds used it, perhaps the other peoples would have adopted the armenian script and knowing the script and the sounds of the letters would have helped them to learn Armenian


I think as far as defending Artsakh goes, that if the Muslims in Armenia had been treated equally and fairly as Armenians, and lived just a prosperous life as any armenian, than yes, they would defend it. However if they were treated as second class citizens i could see why they would side with the Azeris. However your forgetting that if Armenia had the Wilsonian boundaries and remained independent, Artsakh would have most likely been under our control before the collapse of the USSR.

And also the stereotype that Christian sides with Christian, Muslim with Muslim, is not always accurate. Orthodox Christians helped the Muslims against the byzantine, and there have been plenty of incidents of Muslim on Muslim violence.

*Azeris would also be living in Wilsonian Armenia from the time of it's creation till the present conflict, if the current conflict would have even taken place

[jgk3]

Re: What religion are you?

Animals don't get the same mention, they don't have souls and can't sin. As for wolly mammoths and ice ages, people were around back then, but whatever mainly everything was orally passed. Do you think the Israelites even knew of dinosaurs, woolly mammoths, or saber tooth tigers? They aren't going to write in things that happened to soulless lesser creatures when they don't even mention most women in the bible when in regards to genealogical lines, etc

This is funny, on the one hand, we are supposedly higher than animals because we have souls and they don't. On the other hand, this leads to greater restrictions because suddenly our acts, now that we have "a soul" can be deemed sinful or non-sinful, a process that animals would be very free of.

And women were quintessentially evil, they would be between man and animals in terms of hierarchy and because of this, they would influence men to sin?

This has less to do with self-realization than anything else, it's about stratification of the species and resources on the planet in a scheme where you fall quite high in the hierarchy, but you should feel guilty and fearful about your behavior at the same time. Thank God that Jesus opened up the gates to heaven, otherwise there'd be even less of a point.

And for the record, people were around "back then" when wholly mammoths roamed the Earth, I implied that God used his scourge against us during the Ice Age to make us desperate enough to over hunt those poor fuzzy creatures to oblivion. Of course, people back then didn't do this out of greed, but out of necessity, which is even more insightful for how God would devise the dynamics on Earth between the species.