What religion are you?

[Sako]

Re: What religion are you?

There things our minds will never understand, they weren’t meant to. We have limited knowledge. Just like animals can’t understand us, we can’t understand God simply by using our minds and there are things that aren’t supposed to be understood or proved. That’s the beauty of life and the real magic. Stop wasting your time. One discovery leads to a million more questions. Believe with your hearts, be good, proper people, and your life won’t be pointless completely, even if you are an atheist. You are still a person and in this way, you have nothing to fear at the end of your life. All the best.

[Anonymouse]

Re: What religion are you?

It's the classic Armand technique. Keep eluding the arguments and points being made by either calling them wrong, arguing a straw man or ignoring them altogether till everyone who's not on his side in the thread gives up. Then, when people stop responding because they're tired of his circular logic, he declares "victory". You're very Ryan-like in that way, Armand.

Do you really think it's me, or Dusken, or Siggie that isn't "cogent", or is having trouble expressing themselves? If you weren't so hellbent on trying to twist what people are saying into something totally different just so it will fit a rebuttal you had planned out, maybe you'd comprehend the clearly spelled out arguments, and actually ADDRESS them for once, instead of wasting your time attempting to belittle trivial side subjects.

I'll keep quoting this part till you finally reply to the actual content....

My name is not "Armand". Furthermore, I have explained my position clearly and I have addressed the root of the arguments which your side relies on. There is nothing left to be said, unless you don't understand how my argument addresses the given points. This post and this post speak for themselves. If you can address them, I would like to see what you have to say. If you can't, well, then I will expect you to come back and keep posting about how you will keep quoting yourself until I finally reply to "actual content".

[jgk3]

There things our minds will never understand, they weren’t meant to. We have limited knowledge. Just like animals can’t understand us, we can’t understand God simply by using our minds and there are things that aren’t supposed to be understood or proved. That’s the beauty of life and the real magic. Stop wasting your time. One discovery leads to a million more questions. Believe with your hearts, be good, proper people, and your life won’t be pointless completely, even if you are an atheist. You are still a person and in this way, you have nothing to fear at the end of your life. All the best.

Animals understand us quite well in respects to what information is relevant to them. Also, humans and certain animals are able to find middle ground with a language.

You know Saco, if you take some classes in prose and you'd make a good author for some religious scripture that serves to prescribe to its readers how one ought to think of God and the world and condemn all other approaches to gaining insight on those matters. Essentially speaking, if you were charismatic enough, you'd make a good cult leader

[jgk3]

Re: What religion are you?

My name is not "Armand". Furthermore, I have explained my position clearly and I have addressed the root of the arguments which your side relies on. There is nothing left to be said, unless you don't understand how my argument addresses the given points. This post and this post speak for themselves. If you can address them, I would like to see what you have to say. If you can't, well, then I will expect you to come back and keep posting about how you will keep quoting yourself until I finally reply to "actual content".

I agree with Anon's points in those posts. Interesting how in this debate, we have 3 camps instead of the stereotypical 2.

[One-Way]

Re: What religion are you?

My name is not "Armand".

Close thread. We have a winner.

[Sako]

Re: What religion are you?

Animals understand us quite well in respects to what information is relevant to them.

Info like, hmm, you are going to be eaten by us, viewed by us in zoos, killed for your body parts, exterminated by our screwed up ecosystem, and a few other minor details. Your line was just pointless. Of course they take in what is relevant to them, its WE that don't and that's why the animals aren't the ones destroying the world. You take insight on the simplest and most obvious parts of my words which leads me to understand why you're having such a hard time understanding what I'm saying. The animals don't have freewill like us, they are forced down. My point is, their brains cannot understand things we do or can but many animals are very, very clever. That still doesn't make them more clever then us and when you comment things like this instead of commenting on the answers that broke you're views down, it shows the margin of how far you can go. Not cool. I've read spiritual, scientific, etc. books and have talked to people who believe in concepts never heard before. There's pretty much very little you could tell me about right now although we all have much to learn, no doubt about it. But when you talk about spirituality, you have to have understanding before quoating a single word. I live in a world just like you. I'm as material and physical, if not more, then you. I just like to use, what I like to call, my mind and intellect instead of living in pointlessness, accepting pointless concepts and facts, and not accepting a cold hard fact, whether I can see it or not.

Also, humans and certain animals are able to find middle ground with a language.

Wow, I think you just made a discovery. Obvious again, not what I meant.

You know Saco, if you take some classes in prose and you'd make a good author for some religious scripture that serves to prescribe to its readers how one ought to think of God and the world and condemn all other approaches to gaining insight on those matters.

That's what you think I'm doing here? Trying to say "let go of everything else"? I guess your views aren't the only ones that are pointless. I agree with Anonymouse although just like you guys can be atheistic and/or agnostic, I have had the experience to understand something else in many years and I go with that. In the end though, you haven't really said much to even stand here and talk or challenge my views, you just stated the obvious. The problem is, you don't WANT to look at anything else and not necessarily can't or don't understand. You didn't answer anything and yet you still talk. This is silly and just shows why you can't understand anything. There are millions like you that I've met even who have their own interesting concepts, even more interesting then yours and even more pointless then yours. You didn't make it into my "ridiculous people in my life" list, congrats.

Essentially speaking, if you were charismatic enough, you'd make a good cult leader.

Essentially speaking, this is BS. The truth is, we all have to answer for ourselves and very soon too, not that I'm afraid. There have been times when I have been less spiritual or more spiritual but I have never defined spirituality as something taboo or something misunderstood. It is a part of us, a part of me, and I grasp it while many don't. It's not just something I choose just like the air we breath isn't chosen by us. There are things you will never understand and once you understand the meaning of spirituality without judgment or ordering God to become visible and looking at yourself as God, then we can talk. There are many facts on different subjects, not only religious, that people don't agree with even though they can see the evidence so even if God comes down to this world, many will still doubt that he exists. It's because of their ignorance not because they can't understand. He doesn't force us to so think what you will but only for a limited time because that's all the time we have on this world. And you know the weird part? We don't know how long that will be. I enjoy my life but don't say all this was a cause of evolution which ALSO was decided by "someone". I doesn't take a cult leader to roll your views in the dirt, lol, they aren't really even views.

[Anonymouse]

Re: What religion are you?

Info like, hmm, you are going to be eaten by us, viewed by us in zoos, killed for your body parts, exterminated by our screwed up ecosystem, and a few other minor details. Your line was just pointless. Of course they take in what is relevant to them, its WE that don't and that's why the animals aren't the ones destroying the world. You take insight on the simplest and most obvious parts of my words which leads me to understand why you're having such a hard time understanding what I'm saying. The animals don't have freewill like us, they are forced down. My point is, their brains cannot understand things we do or can but many animals are very, very clever. That still doesn't make them more clever then us and when you comment things like this instead of commenting on the answers that broke you're views down, it shows the margin of how far you can go. Not cool. I've read spiritual, scientific, etc. books and have talked to people who believe in concepts never heard before. There's pretty much very little you could tell me about right now although we all have much to learn, no doubt about it. But when you talk about spirituality, you have to have understanding before quoating a single word. I live in a world just like you. I'm as material and physical, if not more, then you. I just like to use, what I like to call, my mind and intellect instead of living in pointlessness, accepting pointless concepts and facts, and not accepting a cold hard fact, whether I can see it or not.



Wow, I think you just made a discovery. Obvious again, not what I meant.



That's what you think I'm doing here? Trying to say "let go of everything else"? I guess your views aren't the only ones that are pointless. I agree with Anonymouse although just like you guys can be atheistic and/or agnostic, I have had the experience to understand something else in many years and I go with that. In the end though, you haven't really said much to even stand here and talk or challenge my views, you just stated the obvious. The problem is, you don't WANT to look at anything else and not necessarily can't or don't understand. You didn't answer anything and yet you still talk. This is silly and just shows why you can't understand anything. There are millions like you that I've met even who have their own interesting concepts, even more interesting then yours and even more pointless then yours. You didn't make it into my "ridiculous people in my life" list, congrats.



Essentially speaking, this is BS. The truth is, we all have to answer for ourselves and very soon too, not that I'm afraid. There have been times when I have been less spiritual or more spiritual but I have never defined spirituality as something taboo or something misunderstood. It is a part of us, a part of me, and I grasp it while many don't. It's not just something I choose just like the air we breath isn't chosen by us. There are things you will never understand and once you understand the meaning of spirituality without judgment or ordering God to become visible and looking at yourself as God, then we can talk. There are many facts on different subjects, not only religious, that people don't agree with even though they can see the evidence so even if God comes down to this world, many will still doubt that he exists. It's because of their ignorance not because they can't understand. He doesn't force us to so think what you will but only for a limited time because that's all the time we have on this world. And you know the weird part? We don't know how long that will be. I enjoy my life but don't say all this was a cause of evolution which ALSO was decided by "someone". I doesn't take a cult leader to roll your views in the dirt, lol, they aren't really even views.

For all the stuff you type, you can get your point across in a sentence or two. Adding long lines and more words does not add any more merit to your argument (whatever it is as I am still trying to figure that part out).

What is your point? (in 3 sentences or less).

[Sako]

Re: What religion are you?

For all the stuff you type, you can get your point across in a sentence or two.

That depends on the time, circumstance, and the people you talk with. Every time we talk, something new pops up. For some reason, J thinks that I'm the one that needs to read and understand and he understands everything. I'm not upset at all. But when I beat down everything he says in every way possible, he types something awkward and bows out in the middle of our conversation and pisses me off. That's why I answer EVERYTHING he asks and look at everything he says in every possible way so MAYBE he'll get what I'm trying to say. I've tried saying it the simple way but when he challenges me, I don't back out. He isn't the first nor the last. If his eyes hurt from reading my posts then I can imagine how many books he's read in his life so let him stop saying everyone besides him is iliterate because that's what his words say. I pity him if he thinks that way, which I pretty much doubt, I don't think he's that far down the rabbit hole, lol.

Adding long lines and more words does not add any more merit to your argument (whatever it is as I am still trying to figure that part out).

I'd love to know which part that is. J also wrote long posts, that's no excuse. I answer everything in an orderly fashion, forgive me if it's too complicated.

What is your point? (in 3 sentences or less).

Difficult, but I'll try, bro. These are pretty much my last words so please read them from top to bottom before commenting. It's more on point but if you don't want to, my last paragraph is the review of everything I said, my overall point. I'm not going to write long posts on this subject anymore bro so lets at least read this last one properly for once.

Man, in itself, was born on this world for a purpose. If he was born simply to enjoy, he wouldn't have to go through pain. I think we all agree with this fact. This leads us to a question. What is pain? Is it just some feeling we feel or a method designed to learn lessons in life? Most, including scientists, believe that you reap what you sow. The Indians believe it is called Karma. Others believe God is the one that punishes us. Others believe it "just happens, you know". But the majority believes that everything has a cause and pain is what leads us forward. Without pain, joy wouldn't be as great and this is a proven fact. Pain is what teaches us lessons, not joy. That’s why, even a kid could understand that this world is built for us to learn not to enjoy. This has led people to understand that we aren't here to enjoy but live instead on proper guide lines and not just be "free" because this world is entanglement in itself. In jail, you can walk around it at times but you can’t come out of it whenever you like. This is whether we believe in God or not. It's proven. This world wasn't built for happiness. Period. It was built for us to learn our lessons and get the hell off it, which we do in a very short amount of years whether we learn our lessons or not. This leads to the next question. What happens after we die? Say, I was a great person, not making mistakes, what happens then? It seems like I’ve just been being good for no reason. This leads to people thinking this is the last life they will live and begin doing whatever they want without realizing that even if this was the last life and there was no God, there are still proper, good, and bad actions. There is nowhere on this world that you can do anything you want which proves again that this world has a purpose. The interesting part is that illusion is what holds us back. The illusion that we will DIE OFF and everything will end. The illusion that all we see belongs to us. The illusion that even God doesn't exist sometimes. But let's forget about that for a second. My point when it comes to illusion is that we forget our purpose and instead of understanding that purpose, whatever it may be, we begin to try and understand this world and make it better for us which has destroyed as much (if not more) as it has aided us through the years. That is why this world was created. To hold us back. It’s like you go to jail but instead of behaving and finding a way to come out, you scratch the walls and see what the jail is built of. It’s simple fact. I don’t need to quote God even once. Man doesn't want to accept the fact that he can't understand everything no matter how many scientists, no matter how many tools, how many geniuses, etc. there are in the world. People fear what they don't understand and try to understand the world then. That is what we are NOT supposed to do. I’m not saying science hasn’t helped. I’m saying that it has made us over confident and has made us forget why we are in this world. Just like a kid who goes to school but stares at all the chick’s everyday instead of learning and studying to finish school and go on to college. This world is a school, and a very dangerous one. We get the experience and then the lessons. This world, when you look at it, is perfect. It teaches us all we need to know but we choose to learn those lessons or not. Those that don’t learn properly die and come back until they are prepared to move on just like the kid who studies properly gets an A+ and the kid that ran after all the chicks fails and goes through the same class until he passes. It is as simple as that whether you look at it physically or mentally and it takes basic knowledge to understand.

Life is a discovery but we don’t usually try to discover what we need to discover. In math class, you need to learn math and after that, you can go do what you want on the playground, still keeping to the rules though (hope you get the metaphor). Man breaks all rules and forgets that there are rules for everything, whether you look at it spiritually or materially. Going to the mountains, becoming a saint and all, etc. are choices we can make (like staying after school and studying) to get off this world sooner. Again proven by scientists and people in general, I can prove that too. This world has its rules, it’s natural. Our body abides by the rules but our minds confuse us. It’s easier to control the wind then our minds. That’s why rules are there for everything otherwise even you would be surprised at what you could do. We are blessed and cursed because we can choose to break the rules and life is very fragile, throwing us into problems when we least expect them. Many ask why that happens but when they get an answer, they don’t want to believe in it. We shouldn’t think they JUST HAPPEN though, but learn from them. A mistake is making the SAME MISTAKE again.

Soon, men realize they can't understand many things, including God and even fear him soon although he was supposed to be our rescuer, even IF he was a created concept. When people can’t prove something, they begin doubting it exists but don’t accept the fact that you can’t understand everything just like a man in jail can’t understand what’s going on outside because he is inside jail or like a kid in 5th grade that can’t understand how to do eleventh grade arithmetic, science, etc. Einstein, before dying, remarked, "I know only one thing, that I don't know anything". He accepted the fact, even as an atheist, that there are things men will never understand, things he even didn’t understand. But we, who don't know half of what so many great people know, puck up and say God doesn't exist. Being agnostic is more of less OK but completely saying that GOD DOESN'T EXIST isn't right and shows our ignorance.

Going back to guide lines. Just like when we go to school, we have to follow the rules. This world has its rules and God gave us the ability to follow them and we know very well, agnostic, materialistic, atheistic, or spiritualistic, the consequences. We go through them everyday and out of the pain, we don’t understand what is going on and begin doubting God exists or even blame him like a kid who doesn’t study but wants to understand the lessons in class, blaming the teacher for his/her own personal messed up misunderstanding. The student doesn’t want to accept the fact that he DOESN’T UNDERSTAND.

This world, as a whole, is not a pretty place to live in. It is filled with problems, with confusion, with illusion, and most importantly with time. We get confused and become fearful of everything, even the people we are close to, and go deep into the darkness. Knowledge is the light and just by a glance at it, we judge it by its cover. There are explanations for everything in this world. Very practical explanations too. We choose not to believe them though, thinking it’s a bunch of lies. Reading one book is not enough. There are many religions because there are different people in the world with different understandings and God gives us chances to understand in different ways. Like different schools. There are many roads to the mountain and whichever you take will get you there except some are difficult and some are easy. Some don’t believe there is a mountain to climb and that we are just here to live and die. That is absurd not only spiritualisticly but materially as well. We have no purpose then and this makes us ask questions such as “Why should we die” “Why should we eat, breath, etc.” “What is the point of life” This leads to the question “Who decided how this world should work?” And that is where we get the idea that everything has a creator. There is new proof I won’t dwell into of things that are almost impossible and unknown to us. Against science COMPLETELY. This has confused the world and has made people think about their views overall.

The review of all I said, your three to four lines (although its a bit longer, is this. Do not doubt what you don’t see because there are many things like that. The simple things in life are difficult to prove so stop analyzing and start learning. Do not judge the book by its cover. Agree with the fact that you can’t understand EVERYTHING in this world, and whether you are a believer in God or not, do to others what you would do to yourself and be a good person before being anything else because that is the first step forward and the ultimate lesson of life. There are people who aren’t believers although I wouldn’t trade them for many believers I know because they are first great people before anything else. Last but not least. A person who follows the rules always wins so if you are a good person, you have nothing to be afraid of whether or not God exists. We all have to die one day, it is inevitable. Let us die good, WORTHY people, instead of simply wasting our lives. Death isn’t something to be afraid of. It is simply the beginning of something else. Even if God doesn’t exist, following a spiritual or at least proper set of rules, easy or hard, still heeds better results then doing what you like. I’d like to wrap this up with a great quote. When you were born, you were crying and everyone else was joyful. When you die, make sure YOU are the one with a joyful smile and the rest are crying after you. All the best guys and forgive me if I offended anyone or complicated anything. And J, forgive me if I offended you especially. It is out of all that I have learned and my will to help out if I can that I wrote for such a long time. Believe me, I have faced much greater oponents in life and they have been proven wrong not only by me but by much greater andsmarter people, scientific and spiritual. The questions I read here are basically ones I've heard millions of times and they have been proven wrong even more times. Your concepts are nothing but natural and being a good person means you have passed the test of life. Even if you understood one thing or anything I said helped you in any way, I feel my posts weren't just a waste of time and I feel much better a person. I learned a bit as well and always look forward to again and again. A man should be like a bee, looking for necter in every corner, even the dirtiest. Wish you all the best.

[Stark Evade]

Re: What religion are you?

I'd like to have an Armenian forum with a minimum IQ. This thread is often utterly embarrassing.

[jgk3]

I'd like to have an Armenian forum with a minimum IQ. This thread is often utterly embarrassing.

I strongly encourage you to make your own forum some day. I would like to visit it and find all the elite Armenian specimens you wish to congregate yourself with. No joke.



Saco, I can't respond to your posts in a way that is pleasing to you because you demand that I recognize your assumptions as true at all times. This is not a pleasing endeavor for me, specifically because I disagree with your pessimistic attitude towards the enterprise of living on Earth without believing in the afterlife or in God.

A lot of your ideas suggest to me that you are not an advocate of free will. I'd say we dynamically create judgments that best apply to our subjective values on the Earth which can change and become more refined overtime. You instead come off as one who demands that we should abide to a static set of rules and regulations in order to make the right decisions in life. This implies that our subjective values must be static, which just doesn't seem natural at all to me and though your subjective values at the moment might be pleasing for you, they certainly don't apply to everyone else and they won't necessarily apply for you in the same way, in the future. You already recognize that there is much for "us" to learn, I'm glad that you show some degree of humility, but you will also recognize overtime that the manner in which you construct your arguments and their content will change overtime, so long as you are interested in hearing out the ideas of others and detecting fault with your own schemes for understanding the world (another very natural phenomenon amongst humans).

When you say man was born on this world for a purpose, I respond "Man must provide himself with a purpose"

When you say that when people can't prove something, they begin doubting it exists but don’t accept the fact that you can’t understand everything, I respond, "1. You're black. 2. I can't prove it. 3. I'm probably wrong. 4. I don't understand the fact that I can't understand everything, maybe you are black afterall."

Finally, when you say that there is nowhere on this world that you can do anything you
want which proves again that this world has a purpose, I respond "You can do anything you want, so long as you're able to bring yourself to doing it."

Obviously we are two very different people and I'm not interested in converting you to use my logic, besides, the idea of thinking like me must seem very repulsive to you. Well, I feel likewise to you. Perhaps we should rejoice in the fact that we share this feeling in common!

What is your point? (in 3 sentences or less).

I like how he responded by making his longest post ever