Where The $$$ Is...

[Crimson Glow]

Re: Where The $$$ Is...

Oh well.

First, I obviously disagree with a certain career you can "choose" which makes you "$$$."

Second, the cost of living is rapidly rising. I can't begin to imagine what I'm looking at, price-wise, if I live away from home in the fall. A single bedroom apartment typically goes for $1,000 a month. Are you kidding me? Now flash forward to real life, $6,250 a month, with a family of four. Bring in the bills and now you're in a tight pickle.

Money left over. Pft.

There in lies the problem. Why live somewhere that's that expensive? Hell, where I live is considered a snob town due to being so expensive, yet it pales in comparison to the cost of living in So Cal. Here, I've paid anywhere from $700 - $900/mnth for a one bedroom (just rent, doesn't include anything else in the price). I tell people this who live in different parts in the country, and they think I'm making it up to sound "rich". Yet you compare it to an apartment in your neck of the woods, and it sounds like a bargain. How about people live somewhere that they can comfortably afford for starters?

Second, even at $1k/month + bills, I can't see how $6k in income wouldn't be plenty. I've lived on my own for 10 years, now. Cell phone bill is $60/month, car insurance is $80 (more coverage than any human being would ever need), gas is anywhere from $10 - $60 depending on how cold the month is, electric is anywhere from $20 - $50 depending on the season, $300 car payment, $32 for internet (AT&T 6mb connection), etc. I pay less than $600/mnth collectively for all my bills. Now double that due to a larger house/apartment for a family, and you're still at $1,200/month. Add in $1k for food to feed 5 (even though that's well over what you'd need), and you're at $3,200 so far. I'm sure there are a few odds and ends still left over, but even if you bump that up to $4k/month, you STILL have $2,200 left over. That's $24k/yr in savings, and that's IF you only have one person working in the household, and IF they "only" make $75k/yr.

Lastly, I'm talking about one person making $75k - $100k. Surely, the wife can chip in and pick up some messily job that pays another $24k/month. It probably wouldn't even have to be full time. That's another $2k to play with, which should cover the cost of the mortgage on a decent house. Perhaps it won't be a mansion, but that again would be shooting for something completely unnecessary just to "live it up"/'show off.

Remember, the average income in this county is below $30k/yr, yet most people are surviving just fine, so please don't tell me $75k - $100k wouldn't cut it.

[One-Way]

Re: Where The $$$ Is...

There in lies the problem. Why live somewhere that's that expensive? Hell, where I live is considered a snob town due to being so expensive, yet it pales in comparison to the cost of living in So Cal. Here, I've paid anywhere from $700 - $900/mnth for a one bedroom (just rent, doesn't include anything else in the price). I tell people this who live in different parts in the country, and they think I'm making it up to sound "rich". Yet you compare it to an apartment in your neck of the woods, and it sounds like a bargain. How about people live somewhere that they can comfortably afford for starters?

I completely agree. However, the millions of people who live in California aren't going to get up and move right now. With that said, that's how life in Southern California is and I'm refering solely to Southern California. Somebody's gotta live here, right? I'm talking for them.

Second, even at $1k/month + bills, I can't see how $6k in income wouldn't be plenty. I've lived on my own for 10 years, now. Cell phone bill is $60/month, car insurance is $80 (more coverage than any human being would ever need), gas is anywhere from $10 - $60 depending on how cold the month is, electric is anywhere from $20 - $50 depending on the season, $300 car payment, $32 for internet (AT&T 6mb connection), etc. I pay less than $600/mnth collectively for all my bills. Now double that due to a larger house/apartment for a family, and you're still at $1,200/month. Add in $1k for food to feed 5 (even though that's well over what you'd need), and you're at $3,200 so far. I'm sure there are a few odds and ends still left over, but even if you bump that up to $4k/month, you STILL have $2,200 left over. That's $24k/yr in savings, and that's IF you only have one person working in the household, and IF they "only" make $75k/yr.

$1,000 for an apartment for a family of four might not make due. You're looking at least $3,000 for somewhere decent, and no, I'm not exaggerating. The cost of living in California is far more expensive than where you are.

Remember, the average income in this county is below $30k/yr, yet most people are surviving just fine, so please don't tell me $75k - $100k wouldn't cut it.

People must not be survivng just fine if we're having all these problems with the house market. $75,000 will be just fine for another state, possibly where you live. But in California, $75,000 is not what it is in your state. The cost of living is far more expensive and your projected amount of $1,000 is a joke. You won't find that here.

[Crimson Glow]

Re: Where The $$$ Is...

After reviewing some stats, I stand corrected. Significantly more expensive, yes. FAR more, no. Your average price on homes is far greater, I'll give you that, but let's look at some facts from city data that paint an interesting picture on how much money people are surviving off of. We'll use Glendale as the Cali example, since that's where all you little Armenian bastards live.

Naperville, IL/Glendale, CA:

Median gross rent in 2007: $1,141/$1,146 (Interesting....almost EXACTLY the same)
Percentage of residents living in poverty in 2007: 3.3%/13.9% (most be all those welfare loving Armenians I hear so much about)
Estimated median household income in 2007: $96,548/$51,719 (OUCH! We make nearly double here??)

http://www.city-data.com/city/Naperville-Illinois.html

http://www.city-data.com/city/Glendale-California.html

SO....you keep referring to how expensive it is to live there, and certainly FAR more than here, yet your average median income is ALMOST HALF what people here make. And what's more, if $75k is a joke, and won't afford you the cost of living in our beloved Little Armenia, how in the freaking hell are people surviving off of a messily, peasant income of $51k/yr? The only thing that has me baffled is how the average income AND rent can be that low, yet your average housing prices are so high. The numbers just don't correlate, but whatever.

Also, again, let's not forget this discussion was about the income of ONE person. If you're going to start talking about creating a family, or bring a spouse into the picture, you're also going to have to count the income s/he earns.

As for the problems with the housing market, I sincerely hope you're joking. The debacle with the housing industry is a direct result of morons buying homes they had no business getting into, and the piece of sh*t banks that lent them the money knowing this. When the interests dropped to historic lows, everyone and their mother started buying houses much bigger than they could afford, thinking a few years down the road (when the real mortgage kicked in on their interest only loans, or the interest shot up on their non-fixed mortgages), they'd turn around and sell it for a huge profit. It was the typical American "buy now, worry about how we'll pay for it later" mentality. Unfortunately, even though it was pretty obvious to see it coming, these idiots didn't factor in that home values can't just keep skyrocketing. Sooner or later, they're going to reach a point where no one could afford them anymore, especially given the fact that our economy has been steadily declining since 9/11 happened. Therefore, when the time came to sell their homes, there were no buyers. The prices initially started dropping to correct the market (due to the abnormal increases in value the previous few years). The people who had these homes that couldn't immediately sell them when they wanted/needed/as their mortgages shot up where stuck with a mortgage amount they could no longer afford. It was sheer greed on the home buyer's part, and unfortunately for them, they were too stupid to understand how to manage it.

We're not in this crash strictly because the average American income is too low. We're in this predicament because Americans are VERY, VERY stupid with their money. Everyone always spends beyond their means, loading whatever is beyond their income on to credit cards, denying to themselves that they're going to have to pay that off sooner or later. If you've ever listened to the Susie Orman show, you've undoubtedly heard callers who make $200k+/yr, and somehow have $35k+ in debts. No matter how much Americans make, they ALWAYS outspend their income. They NEVER make enough, because there's always the next status level of consumer goods. They're never content with what their income can ACTUALLY comfortably afford them. It's a disease spread by the Western virus of romanticizing material possessions, and unfortunately, many Armenians also seem to be infected by it.

[ddd]

Re: Where The $$$ Is...

ddd - I think you're missing the point. For starters, your example is erroneous because neither of the jobs you listed is really what is considered working with kids. I highly doubt that throwing food on a plate, or fixing teeth for a living is what they have in mind. Someone who likes to work with kids is either going to be a youth social worker, or a teacher, or a day care attendant, or a babysitter, etc. Something involved with directly interaction with kids, or impacting their lives on a day-to-day basis. IF they don't mind doing ANY of those jobs, than I can understand exploring the best field financially. But to jump from that, to your example of becoming an orthodontist because you like "working with kids" is beyond a far stretch since the profession itself really has nothing to do with working with kids.

Secondly, the Armenians I speak of are not looking to merely "provide for their family". This has nothing to do with being responsible, or any other psuedo-noble cause you want to attribute. I'm talking about the Armenians that want to "make bank". Siggie said earlier in this thread that $75k - $100k/yr isn't considered bank. Perhaps not (though that's subjective). Regardless, if a person can't survive off of $75k+/yr VERY comfortably, WITH a decent chunk of change left over every month, then you're not looking to just "provide for the family". You're looking to spend on over the top luxuries in life. These people want to be able to blow $100 per person at some obscenely expensive restaurant, even though it's all going to end up in the same place as a meal from Chili's in a few hours (the toilet). They want to afford the high end Beamers, or drive a giant SUV, even though there's only one or 2 people in it at a time. JCPenny, or Kohl's isn't good enough for their wardrobe, they need to buy $2k suits, $200 dress shirts etc. from Nordstrom's (or even higher end stores), even though each one is going to be worn once or twice a month at most. There is absolutely NO purpose for wasting money on the above mentioned things other than spending lavishly for sheer status symbol and extravagance. Which brings us to the most important point you missed.

Armenians constantly talk about how it is our Christian faith that has held our identity together for centuries. It is how we got through the Ottoman curse, and how we survive and thrive no matter where we end up globally. Everything is centered around our Christian faith. However, it appears that Armenians are all talk. Are you all forgetting that Jesus told you to live humbly? That it is very difficult for the "well off" to make it passed heaven's gates? Are you forgetting that to desire worldly/material possessions is a sin? I get condemned by most Armenians for being atheist, but I assure you, from what I've witnessed, read and heard, I live my life far more "morally" (by Bible standards) than the VAST majority of Christians that I've meet. Armenians can talk the talk, but when it comes time to walk the walk by following all the rules established by their lord, they're quick to forget about their Christian faith, and become as petty, greedy and materialistic as their Western counterpart consumerist wh*re nations.

I understood the point very well. I gave a very general example hoping people would just use their imagination a little because obviously everyone prefers something different in life, and their preferred choice in a career can be as narrow as picking between which programming language to learn or an even broader example would be to aim at becoming the principle of a school (PhD usually required) rather than settling for being the kindergarten teacher's assistant.

For the life I'm talking about, yes, 75k-100k household isn't enough. And making that much won't cover what I was referring to.

In the Armenian culture that I, along with many of you have been raised in, family comes first, and what I was referring to was being able to provide private schooling for your kids (7k-40k per year per kid) which would increase their chances of getting into more prestigious colleges (40k-60k/year) and even further. Living in the nicer parts of town, building a nest egg for the future isn't cheap either. In Glendale, you're looking at a MINIMUM of 600k for a decent house, and the mortgage on that will eat up 75k/year right away.

You're talking about surviving in a 1 bedroom apartment with no certainty as to what will happen if you suddenly lose your job, run into some trouble such as a horrible economy, a medical emergency, an unfortunate incident, etc; and I'm talking about living well, comfortable, with a secure future, which is what most of these Armenians are doing or working towards. Absolutely nothing wrong with that. Whether it's "unchristian" or not, I won't comment as this thread has nothing to do with religion. I have no interest in whatever religious views these "money hungry" Armenians have, or whatever religious views you have, that you've been scolded for or praised upon.

Again, many of you would agree that with Armenians, family comes first, and when matters regarding the well being of one's family is in question, there are no limits (religious or not) most Armenians will go through to keep them secure.

So why should any smart, assertive, workaholic Armenian give up on or feel bad about reaching even half or 3/4ths of their potential simply because some people think doing well for yourself, being good at it, providing a desired service, securing the future for you and your family, and enjoying yourself in the process is considered whorish consumerism.

[ddd]

Re: Where The $$$ Is...

Jesus was a carpenter...

Jesus was actually an engineer/innovator of his time, a very highly regarded profession. Though after a couple thousand years, this translated into a carpenter.

[ddd]

Re: Where The $$$ Is...

After reviewing some stats, I stand corrected. Significantly more expensive, yes. FAR more, no. Your average price on homes is far greater, I'll give you that, but let's look at some facts from city data that paint an interesting picture on how much money people are surviving off of. We'll use Glendale as the Cali example, since that's where all you little Armenian bastards live.

Naperville, IL/Glendale, CA:

Median gross rent in 2007: $1,141/$1,146 (Interesting....almost EXACTLY the same)
Percentage of residents living in poverty in 2007: 3.3%/13.9% (most be all those welfare loving Armenians I hear so much about)
Estimated median household income in 2007: $96,548/$51,719 (OUCH! We make nearly double here??)

http://www.city-data.com/city/Naperville-Illinois.html

http://www.city-data.com/city/Glendale-California.html

SO....you keep referring to how expensive it is to live there, and certainly FAR more than here, yet your average median income is ALMOST HALF what people here make. And what's more, if $75k is a joke, and won't afford you the cost of living in our beloved Little Armenia, how in the freaking hell are people surviving off of a messily, peasant income of $51k/yr? The only thing that has me baffled is how the average income AND rent can be that low, yet your average housing prices are so high. The numbers just don't correlate, but whatever.

What the numbers don't show is the type of people live in Glendale. There are many immigrants living in Glendale who obviously are not established enough to make that type of living, and with every Armenian family, you have the mother's retired parents, the father's retired parents, and the kids who may or may not be in college but may be too old to file their taxes with the parents. The median may be 50k, just like the rest of the US, but those who are above 50k make enough to support those who are below (kids/retired parents/etc.) There are areas in Glendale where 10% of the residents make 500k+, 20% at 250k+, and more than half being retired, and these residents are mostly doctors, lawyers, business owners who you see driving around in their Gucci shirts, with their 100k+ cars, eating $100 dinners, who you say give Armenians a bad name and are infected with some virus when in reality, they are living well within their means, and would actually be considered conservative spenders by their peers.

[One-Way]

Re: Where The $$$ Is...

Holy shit, Crimson. You're taking this personal, aren't you?

How about you keep to yourself, huh? You're not worth the time to respond. Go by your little stats. You're like those little kids who Google how much a physicatrist's salary is, then make the decision to become on.

I live in Burbank and for a 2/3 bedroom apartment, it's rougly $3,000 a month. I haven't seen anything much lower. Unless you want to live in a shit infested place; you'll find it with your "averages."

The fact is life is more expensive in California than Illinois. Jesus Christ, our gas prices shot up to $6 last year whereas you guys barely see anything above $2. You're little stats sheets don't provide all the facts.

I'm trying to tell you how I see it where I live. You want to pull out this fact shit on me on a forum, come on.

[Siggie]

Re: Where The $$$ Is...

One-way, I found 2 bedrooms in Burbank last year, not sh it infested around ~1500.

That said, Crimson, your numbers (whether means or medians) will not paint an accurate picture of the actual data. You want to see the difference, then find a measure of the variability (variance or standard deviation).\

People also don't just say I'll live where it's cheaper because we are social beings and we go where we have a support system. Or where your family settled. Yours happened to go to Ill.
People tell me I'm crazy when I say, I want to move back go LA when I'm done with school, asking me how I'll ever be able to live there and buy house. I say, that's my problem, and I'll figure something out, but I cannot leave my family and friends. Been there, done that, can't stand it any longer than I have to.
Now if it was a matter of either being able to provide food, shelter, and necessities for my family, then certainly, I would consider moving over being homeless or losing our home, etc.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Where The $$$ Is...

One-way, I found 2 bedrooms in Burbank last year, not sh it infested around ~1500.

That said, Crimson, your numbers (whether means or medians) will not paint an accurate picture of the actual data. You want to see the difference, then find a measure of the variability (variance or standard deviation).\

People also don't just say I'll live where it's cheaper because we are social beings and we go where we have a support system. Or where your family settled. Yours happened to go to Ill.
People tell me I'm crazy when I say, I want to move back go LA when I'm done with school, asking me how I'll ever be able to live there and buy house. I say, that's my problem, and I'll figure something out, but I cannot leave my family and friends. Been there, done that, can't stand it any longer than I have to.
Now if it was a matter of either being able to provide food, shelter, and necessities for my family, then certainly, I would consider moving over being homeless or losing our home, etc.

Haven't you seen the movie Escape from L.A. ???

[Crimson Glow]

Re: Where The $$$ Is...

Holy shit, Crimson. You're taking this personal, aren't you? How about you keep to yourself, huh? You're not worth the time to respond.

Uhhhh....what the HELL are you talking about? Keep what to myself? And I'm taking this personally? Projecting a bit, by chance? Nothing I have said thus far suggests that. On the other hand, you greatly exaggerated figures to the extreme on both ends on your last post based on absolutely nothing (which I will demonstrate below), which indicates you're arguing out of emotion, not logic. To top it off, you unjustly locked the thread for no qualifying reason other than to disallow me the opportunity to respond to all the fallacies and inaccuracies in said post. I would say that suggests YOU'RE taking this personally, not me. I couldn't care less where it's more expensive to live. My main concern was Armenians letting $$ and status dictate their life choices (i.e. what career to choose, what to drive, etc.) For you to respond by telling me how I'm talking things, or throwing out unsubstantiated facts, and then locking the thread so no one could correct them was extremely uncalled for.

You're like those little kids who Google how much a physicatrist's salary is, then make the decision to become on.

What the? Again, how did anything I've said relate to the above statement? The whole reason I even posted in this thread is to CONDEMN the use of such methods to determine what career one should go into, and you quoted me, agreeing ecstatically. Remember, Mr. "Couldn't have said it better myself. Glad I'm not alone in this"? Oh how quickly they forget.

I live in Burbank and for a 2/3 bedroom apartment, it's rougly $3,000 a month. I haven't seen anything much lower. Unless you want to live in a shit infested place; you'll find it with your "averages."

If there isn't anything much lower, how is the average that low? If the majority are so much higher as you say, then that would reflect in/bump up the average itself. I can't really compare our 3 bedroom pricing to yours, because....well.... a 3 bdrm apartment is unheard of in the suburbs here. Look, I'm not debating it's more expensive to get an apartment there, or that it's more expensive to live there. However, the discrepancy in prices you express seems a wee bit over the top, which even Siggie pointed out with HER own experience (if we're going to argue stats vs. "reality/experience from living there").

The fact is life is more expensive in California than Illinois.

That is a completely unsubstantiated blanket statement. There are great variances and extremes in the cost of living within ANY state. For example, you can't compare living in the super upscale communities of Chicago, for which, you'd need a DEEP, deep 6-digit income, to living in Moline, where you can live like a king even on just $40k/yr. Here are some examples of what it will cost you to rent in some of the swanky areas of Chicago (downtown/the loop, Streeterville, Lincoln Park, etc):

http://chicago.craigslist.org/chc/apa/1026514649.html

http://chicago.craigslist.org/chc/apa/1026098229.html

http://chicago.craigslist.org/chc/apa/1025864325.html

http://chicago.craigslist.org/chc/apa/1026306101.html

http://chicago.craigslist.org/chc/apa/1026458661.html

Do you even know where I live? It seems like you've gotten this impression that all of IL is like some typical midwest farm town with a population of 3,000, where you can buy 2 acres for $20k. Naperville is an upper-middle class SW suburb of Chicago with a population of over 140k. While there's no doubt So Cal IS more expensive to live in, I assure you, the difference is not as astronomical as you'd apparently like it to be.

Jesus Christ, our gas prices shot up to $6 last year whereas you guys barely see anything above $2. You're little stats sheets don't provide all the facts.

Ummm....you insult actual official stats as not providing all the facts while completely making up numbers of your own? Where exactly did you get that $2 figure from? Are you seriously not aware that the NATIONAL AVERAGE was over $4/gal during the peak in gas prices? Jesus Christ, I paid over $2/gal YESTERDAY, let alone 6 months ago. Chicago requires a "special blend" of gas, which is added on top of the cost of oil. Chicago DID have the highest gas prices in the nation at one point during the height of the spike period. Given the city I live in is a SW suburb of Chicago, we're only about $ .20/gal or so cheaper here. In fact, at its peak, we were paying close to $5/gal, which according to all the
LA and So Cal news outlets and fellow car club members from the area, is about what you guys out there were paying. Care to try again?

I'm trying to tell you how I see it where I live. You want to pull out this fact shit on me on a forum, come on.

Oh yes. Using facts is terrible when debating, or trying to reach a conclusion. Sure, you can only rely on them to an extent, and they don't paint the whole picture. However, it's a HELL of a lot better to go off of than what you just tried to pull, which is numbers out of thin air. If you want to dispute stats, or make counter arguments, I have no problem with that what so ever. But if you can't express your disagreements in a civilized, tactful manner, or base them on something other than anger at someone disagreeing with you, then perhaps it is you who should "keep it to yourself". You're a moderator. You know better.