Georgia

[Shahumyan]

I got to mid way thru 3rd page and i got bored, so i hope im not repeating any points...

If we look at what situation in Georgia will benefit the Armenian people we must look at what the goal of a Georgian government would be.
Under a bourgeoise government, the aims of the Georgian govt will always opppose the goals of the Armeinan people (as well as the georgian people). For example, the Baku-Tiblissi-Ceyhan pipeline was bought about by Georgian bourgeois, what has this done to Armenian people? It has meant that Armenia becomes a less important geopolitical state in the caucauses. As a direct result, american imperialism has jumped into bed with the Georgian bourgeoise with the NATO arrangements.

Armenia after gaining "independence" has less control of what it does, and what happens in its country. As a semi-colonial nation it is now a tool to be juggled with by the Russian and US imperialists. Armenia must now also hop along in tune with the EU governments in terms of what to do. An example is the repealing of the death penalty to only war time situations, (although i agree the death penatly being banned) The only people to change laws relating to armenian workers should BE the armenian workers, not the capitalists sitting in Brussels dictating to Yerevan.

Back to Georgia however, the new georgian bourgeoise has links with the mafia and extreme corruption, it is not a progressive move. In fact now they are even MORE pro-american (if this is humanley possible), this again will weaken the ability of the armenian bourgeoise to play the russians and yanks off each other. Now the russian capitalists will gain a monopoly in Armenia (which has already starteed with the electricity and water works and other regular businesses). This is a very bad situation to be in, as when Russia enters a crisis of capitalism (as is inevitable due to the economic cycle), armenia will be dragged down to. And yet Armenians claim we are more independant??

[Anonymouse]

Originally posted by Shahumyan I got to mid way thru 3rd page and i got bored, so i hope im not repeating any points...

If we look at what situation in Georgia will benefit the Armenian people we must look at what the goal of a Georgian government would be.
Under a bourgeoise government, the aims of the Georgian govt will always opppose the goals of the Armeinan people (as well as the georgian people). For example, the Baku-Tiblissi-Ceyhan pipeline was bought about by Georgian bourgeois, what has this done to Armenian people? It has meant that Armenia becomes a less important geopolitical state in the caucauses. As a direct result, american imperialism has jumped into bed with the Georgian bourgeoise with the NATO arrangements.

Armenia after gaining "independence" has less control of what it does, and what happens in its country. As a semi-colonial nation it is now a tool to be juggled with by the Russian and US imperialists. Armenia must now also hop along in tune with the EU governments in terms of what to do. An example is the repealing of the death penalty to only war time situations, (although i agree the death penatly being banned) The only people to change laws relating to armenian workers should BE the armenian workers, not the capitalists sitting in Brussels dictating to Yerevan.

Back to Georgia however, the new georgian bourgeoise has links with the mafia and extreme corruption, it is not a progressive move. In fact now they are even MORE pro-american (if this is humanley possible), this again will weaken the ability of the armenian bourgeoise to play the russians and yanks off each other. Now the russian capitalists will gain a monopoly in Armenia (which has already starteed with the electricity and water works and other regular businesses). This is a very bad situation to be in, as when Russia enters a crisis of capitalism (as is inevitable due to the economic cycle), armenia will be dragged down to. And yet Armenians claim we are more independant??

Ooh goodie, we were missing a Marxian from the boards. Glad to see you join the fun!

[TJ]

SOYUZ

but really its not the georgians its the turks. yes the georgians are benefiting from the pipeling but its not their decision did you really expect azerbaijan to let them build a pipeline through Armenia, we are in a war with them and this is just another example of how the war has held us back. And if Armenia wants to ever get the benefits of EU membership it is doing right in cooperating with them, by the way in 10 or 15 years the EU can be seen as an alternative to the russians and americans both of whom are a lot worse than the EU which i can say actually has some morals, although this is difficult to believe in any government structure.

[Anonymouse]

Oooooh Tigran, the future president of Armenia, made a comeback, with a left jab of a post.

[Shahumyan]

Anon,
glad i cud join, there should be some good threads if the typical politics of the older generation armenians doesnt smear itself over here.

Tigran,
Am i correct that your arguing that it is better for Armenia to be the semi-colony of EU rather than America or Russia?
You'd be correct in suggesting that the EU is "softer" and due to the work of the pressure of the workers of the EU the governments are a bit more liberal.
However, i disagree that we should allow the EU to have a hold over our politics in Armenia rather than USA/Russia simply because of thsi argument.

All across Europe there are widespread protests and strikes against the governments of the EU due to their policies of clamping down on workers rights, such as minimum wage, pension, healthcare, education. Although the EU has a softer image than the other two, should we not realise that the same people are governing the EU? ie the bourgeoise?

As a citizen of the EU, having been born here, i have seen how the EU and its Social Democratic parties have betrayed its workers. I have also seen how they dont care for the wish of the people in policy making, such as the Euro, or the new constitution. To use an example, in Ireland the people voted no to the Nice treaty in a referenudum. What did the Irish bourgeoise do? Did they respect the wishes of the Irish people? No, they just kept having referendums until only the "Yes" camp voted.

I do not want the same to happen in armenia, not because i dont wanna see Armenians under the iron fist of the EU beurocracy, but because the people, disregarding the nationality, will suffer, be it in Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia and Turkey.

The lesson of why the EU bourgeoise has tended to have a softer image is due to the immense pressure of the EU workers to keep it liberal. I believe it is our duty to in the short term do the same in Armenia and the caucauses, but in the long term, make sure we have a government which is MADE by the people.

[Anonymouse]

Originally posted by Shahumyan Anon,
glad i cud join, there should be some good threads if the typical politics of the older generation armenians doesnt smear itself over here.

Tigran,
Am i correct that your arguing that it is better for Armenia to be the semi-colony of EU rather than America or Russia?
You'd be correct in suggesting that the EU is "softer" and due to the work of the pressure of the workers of the EU the governments are a bit more liberal.
However, i disagree that we should allow the EU to have a hold over our politics in Armenia rather than USA/Russia simply because of thsi argument.

All across Europe there are widespread protests and strikes against the governments of the EU due to their policies of clamping down on workers rights, such as minimum wage, pension, healthcare, education. Although the EU has a softer image than the other two, should we not realise that the same people are governing the EU? ie the bourgeoise?

As a citizen of the EU, having been born here, i have seen how the EU and its Social Democratic parties have betrayed its workers. I have also seen how they dont care for the wish of the people in policy making, such as the Euro, or the new constitution. To use an example, in Ireland the people voted no to the Nice treaty in a referenudum. What did the Irish bourgeoise do? Did they respect the wishes of the Irish people? No, they just kept having referendums until only the "Yes" camp voted.

I do not want the same to happen in armenia, not because i dont wanna see Armenians under the iron fist of the EU beurocracy, but because the people, disregarding the nationality, will suffer, be it in Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia and Turkey.

The lesson of why the EU bourgeoise has tended to have a softer image is due to the immense pressure of the EU workers to keep it liberal. I believe it is our duty to in the short term do the same in Armenia and the caucauses, but in the long term, make sure we have a government which is MADE by the people.

Socialism is a failed and flawed concept. We've had many political threads here.

Apparently socialists nor the followers of Marx seem to understand history or economics. No offense of course.