Atheism and being Armenian

[KanadaHye]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

Certainly someone can be an Armenian who is also an atheist, such as myself, but my question to you all is if you believe religiosity is something necessary (or at least extremely important) to the Armenian experience? Why or why not?

I suppose you'd have to define the Armenian experience and most people can relate to other Armenians in their communities by doing the same things that other Armenians do. The church along with schools are tools to promote Armenian culture. The church isn't all knowing, nor does it claim to be but it provides a ground for discussion. I'd also like to mention that people who grew up under communism were exposed to Atheist ideology but many who were later exposed to religious settings or teachings changed their views of the world. Leaders who were also atheist made themselves to be gods, if there is no belief that there exists a higher power then that yields ultimate power for rulers over mankind. This is also a reason why there is a divide among Armenians (those that were raised under Atheism vs. those who left for the western world or maintained their beliefs in secular but majority Muslim populations).

[jgk3]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

I read these today and thought it might help answer your question:

http://www.armenianchurchlibrary.com/files/introdivineliturgyfindikyan.pdf

http://www.akn-chant.org/en/chant

You do the right steps and your participation makes the ceremony happen. It's like dancing to a song. Do you need to deeply believe in the message of the lyrics to somehow feel close to that song, maybe even identify yourself with it out of its familiarity to you?

The whole thing is quite complex and not simple to understand unless you show up to church often and try to make sense of it:

1. the language is ancient and impossible to fully understand without some research
2. the procession is a long, animated dialogue between the priest, deacons and choirmaster
3. feast days vary the themes during mass and colour the calender (saint days, holidays...)
4. the sacred objects which decorate the church or which are used by the priest and his helpers each have their own significance.

The Badarak is basically an approach to God's divinity as something mysterious and unfathomable to man, whom we as a church seek to unite ourselves with through holy communion with Jesus Christ. In practical consequence, the liturgy is executed in a way that is mysterious and unfathomable to those who attend it (unless you've spent considerable time and effort learning the significance of all the things I described from 1-4), and that through your attendance and following of the guided steps of the priest, you join with the church to achieve its sacred rite. Thus, being a Christian is not emphasized as a personal faith one keeps cooped up in their heads, but as an act one partakes in church. That is why Armenians, even if they're not that religious in their private lives, are so easily identifiable as Armenian Apostolic Christians. If an Armenian wants to feel closer to God, all they have to do is make the liturgy less mysterious to them by learning more about it and following its ritual requirements with more conscience.

[Jinx]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

Just don't be too outward about it, go to church during the important holidays, be respectful to the church, and you should be fine.

Well, that's not going to happen. But thanks for the advice.

[UrMistake]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

Nice thread ,
I agree with the above responses and i believe its accurately true,even if we talk about the progressive western society and the lack of faith we can be considered part of this western motion,i think its part of the enlightenment and all of the maturing period western nations have gone trough.

[Mos]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

Though this is starting to go off topic, I'd really like us to focus on the Armenian community and how an atheist would relate to/be a part of that. robertik1 gave one way to go about it, which is just going through the motions, but I'm wondering what the view is of an open atheist is or should be within the Armenian community.

Just don't be too outward about it, go to church during the important holidays, be respectful to the church, and you should be fine.

I wouldn't say the homophobia is a result of religiosity rather just of Armenia being a more conservative society than in the West.

[Jinx]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

Absolutely, anyone can hold any reprehensible belief, whether or not they are religious. However, I stated that I have experience with many Armenians directly citing their religious faith and beliefs for such opinions, which indicates that it is not a benign institution.

As for your comment ("If atheists are uncomfortable with Armenians and Christianity, then it just means their faith in non believing isn't very strong."), I actually do not understand what you're saying or what the connection there is. As for being doubtful, that absolutely is human, and something atheists embrace. Atheists say that they don't believe in God, rarely do they say there absolutely is no God. Some do, but most don't think that way, and to do so would be foolish. Uncertainty and doubt is inherent to atheism, what atheists are uncomfortable with is religion's certainty.

Though this is starting to go off topic, I'd really like us to focus on the Armenian community and how an atheist would relate to/be a part of that. robertik1 gave one way to go about it, which is just going through the motions, but I'm wondering what the view is of an open atheist is or should be within the Armenian community.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

You'd be surprised that most Armenians who attend church aren't religious at all. In fact they only show up on Easter and Christmas. That doesn't mean that they don't see value in the Armenian church or its teachings since those same values have been passed down generation to generation. As far as homophobia and antisemitism, you don't have to be religious at all to form stereotypes... most people form their bias and opinions from random encounters with people from those two groups who happened to rub them the wrong way (no pun intended). If atheists are uncomfortable with Armenians and Christianity, then it just means their faith in non believing isn't very strong. It's human to be doubtful.

[Jinx]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

I think the reasons atheists reject the church is because they don't see it as a benign institution. Sure, it can be very useful as a cultural tool, and it would be fine if everyone saw it that way. But it does spread ideas and values that many atheists are very uncomfortable with. I know many Armenians aren't 'religious' in the traditional sense, but there is no denying the rampant homophobia and antisemitism in the Armenian community, and I have heard enough Armenians in my life justify these beliefs by citing biblical or religious reasons to have reason to believe that the Armenians who go to church aren't tuning it out just for some cultural experience. A significant percentage are absorbing it.

[Mos]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

Do you think perhaps Armenians in the diaspora being religious or defensive about the church is some sort of reaction to feeling a need to cultivate what you could call their 'armenian-ness'? The Armenian church provides a cultural connection and a place for Armenians to congregate in a way that no other institution really does, at least not on the same scale, and I think this is the reason why the idea of being an atheist can seem to many people also wanting to 'not be Armenian,' or something like that. It's not so much about denying the truth of what the bible says that makes some Armenians feel that being an atheist is incompatible with being Armenian, but rather that they feel atheists are rejecting the single most important anchor in the Armenian community.

Well the way I see it the atheists are rejected because they reject the Armenian Church rather than their rejection of the existence of God. The Armenian Church is very important and sacred to many Armenians regardless of their belief if God exists or not. And yes the Armenian Church serves as a meeting place for Armenians, you will see where ever there is considerable Armenian population there is also an Armenian church. Usually, however, Armenians who don't believe in God usually keep it to themselves and will continue to identify themselves with the Armenian church - it just isn't something that is brought to the open that much.

[Jinx]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

Do you think perhaps Armenians in the diaspora being religious or defensive about the church is some sort of reaction to feeling a need to cultivate what you could call their 'armenian-ness'? The Armenian church provides a cultural connection and a place for Armenians to congregate in a way that no other institution really does, at least not on the same scale, and I think this is the reason why the idea of being an atheist can seem to many people also wanting to 'not be Armenian,' or something like that. It's not so much about denying the truth of what the bible says that makes some Armenians feel that being an atheist is incompatible with being Armenian, but rather that they feel atheists are rejecting the single most important anchor in the Armenian community.