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Atheism and being Armenian

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  • #191
    Re: Atheism and being Armenian

    Originally posted by gkv View Post
    it is perfectly defensible for a blind person to claim he/she does not believe in, say, the sun.
    does such a claim "shake" the non-blind's world as a result?
    i would say only the blind who believe/are willing to believe yet are not too sure might be shaken.
    those who see will only be saddened, sometimes angered.
    but there is no point in being angry.
    Sure. Those whose faith is "solid", shouldn't be shaken.
    [COLOR=#4b0082][B][SIZE=4][FONT=trebuchet ms]“If you think you can, or you can’t, you’re right.”
    -Henry Ford[/FONT][/SIZE][/B][/COLOR]

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    • #192
      Re: Atheism and being Armenian

      Originally posted by Siggie View Post
      Sure. Those whose faith is "solid", shouldn't be shaken.
      Even something as solid as a boulder can be shaken if there is a tremendous amount of opposing force.
      "Nobody can give you freedom. Nobody can give you equality or justice or anything. If you're a man, you take it." ~Malcolm X

      Comment

      • #193
        Re: Atheism and being Armenian

        Here's a book relating a phenomenon that deserves mention in the context of your previous statements.

        Doubly chosen: jewish identity, the Soviet intelligentsia, and the Russian Orthodox Church (Google eBook)
        Judith Deutsch Kornblatt
        0 Reviews
        Univ of Wisconsin Press, 2004 - History - 203 pages
        Doubly Chosen provides the first detailed study of a unique cultural and religious phenomenon in post-Stalinist Russia—the conversion of thousands of Russian jewish intellectuals to Orthodox Christianity, first in the 1960s and later in the 1980s. These time periods correspond to the decades before and after the great exodus of jews from the Soviet Union. Judith Deutsch Kornblatt contends that the choice of baptism into the Church was an act of moral courage in the face of Soviet persecution, motivated by solidarity with the values espoused by Russian Christian dissidents and intellectuals. Oddly, as Kornblatt shows, these converts to Russian Orthodoxy began to experience their jewishness in a new and positive way.
        Working primarily from oral interviews conducted in Russia, Israel, and the United States, Kornblatt underscores the conditions of Soviet life that spurred these conversions: the virtual elimination of Judaism as a viable, widely practiced religion; the transformation of jews from a religious community to an ethnic one; a longing for spiritual values; the role of the Russian Orthodox Church as a symbol of Russian national culture; and the forging of a new jewish identity within the context of the Soviet dissident movement.

        Doubly Chosen
        http://books.google.com/books/about/Doubly_chosen.html?id=nPPaN-jkrcUC
        Doubly Chosen provides the first detailed study of a unique cultural and religious phenomenon in post-Stalinist Russia—the conversion of thousands of Russian Jewish intellectuals to Orthodox Christianity, first in the 1960s and later in the 1980s. These time periods correspond to the decades before and after the great exodus of Jews from the Soviet Union. Judith Deutsch Kornblatt contends that the choice of baptism into the Church was an act of moral courage in the face of Soviet persecution, motivated by solidarity with the values espoused by Russian Christian dissidents and intellectuals. Oddly, as Kornblatt shows, these converts to Russian Orthodoxy began to experience their Jewishness in a new and positive way. Working primarily from oral interviews conducted in Russia, Israel, and the United States, Kornblatt underscores the conditions of Soviet life that spurred these conversions: the virtual elimination of Judaism as a viable, widely practiced religion; the transformation of Jews from a religious community to an ethnic one; a longing for spiritual values; the role of the Russian Orthodox Church as a symbol of Russian national culture; and the forging of a new Jewish identity within the context of the Soviet dissident movement.
        Last edited by gkv; 06-06-2011, 08:52 AM. Reason: bypass forum filter

        Comment

        • #194
          Re: Atheism and being Armenian

          the issue with "atheists" is that their grasp of reality is restricted by their intellect.
          their approach of existence/world is conceptual only.

          even as far as concepts go, they often lack conceptual knowledge of spiritual traditions.
          they most likely ignore for instance the existence/preeminence of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apophatic_theology in eastern christianity.

          Comment

          • #195
            Re: Atheism and being Armenian

            one could point out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6...ological_proof
            which at least shows that atheism does not necessarily follow from intellectual sophistication, Gödel being one of the great minds of the twentieth century.

            but from a spiritual perspective, this is of (very) little interest.

            speaking of great minds, i mentioned Pavel Florensky some time ago.
            armenians are so quick to claim as their own, anyone remotely armenian, remotely famous that i find the lack of interest in this extraordinary personality quite astonishing.

            Pavel Florensky - Wikipedia
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pavel_Florensky

            Pavel Florensky - OrthodoxWiki
            http://en.orthodoxwiki.org/Pavel_Florensky


            His father was russian, his mother from the armenian nobility.
            He was raised in the most secular way by his agnostic parents.
            Went through a spiritual crisis at the age of 17
            A lot is related in this auto-biographical book (which does not appear to be available in english, alas)

            Éditions l'Âge d'Homme
            http://www.lagedhomme.com/boutique/fiche_produit.cfm?ref=9782825118603&type=1&code_lg=lg_fr&num=0
            La maison d'édition L'Age d'Homme est fondée en 1966 ŕ Lausanne par Vladimir Dimitrijevic. C'est sans doute ŕ L'Age d'Homme, forte aujourd'hui de 4000 titres, que nous devons de ne plus réduire la littérature russe aux seuls noms de Dostoďevski , de Tolstoď ou de Gorki. Grâce ŕ la collection «Classiques Slaves», les lecteurs ont pu découvrir les œuvres majeures du symbolisme russe, celle d'André Biely (Pétersbourg, La Colombe d'Argent, Kotik Letaiev), d'Ossip Mandelstam, d'Alexandre Blok ; des auteurs aussi considérables que les polonais Witkiewicz ou Ladislas Reymont ; les écrits esthétiques de Malévitch, les essais et les romans de Zamiatine, de Leskov ou de Boris Pilniak. De Ivo Andritch et Dobritsa Tchossitch aux chefs-d'œuvre d'Alexandre Zinoviev, la collection «Classiques Slaves» qui compte aujourd'hui plus de 500 titres, a permis de faire connaître un immense patrimoine littéraire que le «réalisme-socialiste» n'avait pas réussi ŕ étouffer.
            Last edited by gkv; 06-06-2011, 09:22 AM. Reason: added stuff about Florensky

            Comment

            • #196
              Re: Atheism and being Armenian

              Originally posted by Siggie View Post
              It shakes people's world's a little less to think that you're being "trendy" or that this "trend" is over (in fact, people are becoming more and more non-religious) than to think that your lack of belief is defensible.
              In regards to "trends" and "behaviour" How America works.....


              Reese Witherspoon slams stars who make sex tapes

              Paris Hilton and Kim Kardashian might have been blushing as they watched Reese Witherspoon at Sunday night's MTV Movie Awards.

              Accepting her MTV Generation award, the Oscar-winning actress slammed stars who have appeared in sex tapes and nude-photo scandals, telling them they should be ashamed of themselves.

              “I get it, girls, that it’s cool to be a bad girl,” the mom-of-two told the crowd. “But it is possible to make it in Hollywood without doing a reality show. When I came up in this business, if you made a sex tape, you were embarrassed and you hid it under your bed.”

              Witherspoon also appeared to have a message for "Gossip Girl" star Blake Lively, who denied last week that she was the mystery blonde in a series of nude cell phone pics making the rounds on the Internet.

              Said Witherspoon, “And if you took naked pictures of yourself on your cell phone, you hide your face, people! Hide your face!”

              The "Water for Elephants" star concluded her speech with a message of hope.

              “For all the girls out there, it’s totally possible to be a good girl,” she said. “I’m going to try to make it cool.”

              What do you think of Witherspoon's speech?

              http://marquee.blogs.cnn.com/2011/06...pes/?hpt=hp_t2
              "Nobody can give you freedom. Nobody can give you equality or justice or anything. If you're a man, you take it." ~Malcolm X

              Comment

              • #197
                Re: Atheism and being Armenian

                Originally posted by gkv View Post
                the issue with "atheists" is that their grasp of reality is restricted by their intellect.
                In what way?
                [COLOR=#4b0082][B][SIZE=4][FONT=trebuchet ms]“If you think you can, or you can’t, you’re right.”
                -Henry Ford[/FONT][/SIZE][/B][/COLOR]

                Comment

                • #198
                  Re: Atheism and being Armenian

                  Originally posted by Siggie View Post
                  In what way?
                  Mt 5:3 “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

                  what i said earlier is true of a number of "believers" too.
                  if one starts putting words to describe reality, one is already conceptualizing, breaking down the whole into parts.
                  this is what i'm doing here. i'm conceptualizing conceptualization.
                  from there, one could conceptualize non-conceptualization as being the opposite.
                  conceptualizing and living/"enacting" are very different things.
                  breaking out of the "conceptualizing" mode cannot result from a discussion which, by definition, stands on the mental plane.

                  Once Zhuangzi dreamt he was a butterfly, a butterfly flitting and fluttering around, happy with himself and doing as he pleased. He didn't know he was Zhuangzi. Suddenly he woke up and there he was, solid and unmistakable Zhuangzi. But he didn't know if he was Zhuangzi who had dreamt he was a butterfly, or a butterfly dreaming he was Zhuangzi.

                  Comment

                  • #199
                    Re: Atheism and being Armenian

                    Originally posted by gkv View Post
                    the issue with "atheists" is that their grasp of reality is restricted by their intellect.
                    Originally posted by Siggie View Post
                    In what way?
                    Originally posted by gkv View Post
                    Mt 5:3 “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

                    what i said earlier is true of a number of "believers" too.
                    if one starts putting words to describe reality, one is already conceptualizing, breaking down the whole into parts.
                    this is what i'm doing here. i'm conceptualizing conceptualization.
                    from there, one could conceptualize non-conceptualization as being the opposite.
                    conceptualizing and living/"enacting" are very different things.
                    breaking out of the "conceptualizing" mode cannot result from a discussion which, by definition, stands on the mental plane.

                    Once Zhuangzi dreamt he was a butterfly, a butterfly flitting and fluttering around, happy with himself and doing as he pleased. He didn't know he was Zhuangzi. Suddenly he woke up and there he was, solid and unmistakable Zhuangzi. But he didn't know if he was Zhuangzi who had dreamt he was a butterfly, or a butterfly dreaming he was Zhuangzi.

                    <iframe width="425" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/XrbumvF-Oe4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
                    [COLOR=#4b0082][B][SIZE=4][FONT=trebuchet ms]“If you think you can, or you can’t, you’re right.”
                    -Henry Ford[/FONT][/SIZE][/B][/COLOR]

                    Comment

                    • #200
                      Re: Atheism and being Armenian

                      Originally posted by Siggie View Post

                      <iframe width="425" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/XrbumvF-Oe4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
                      this either says something about the teacher or the student. or maybe this says nothing at all for there is neither a teacher nor a student. or the teacher only exists in the student's mind. does the student have a mind? this is yet another open question. but what is a question to start with?

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