How Much of the Bible Must Be Historical to Believe?

[Haykakan]

Re: How Much of the Bible Must Be Historical to Believe?

Religious people seem to have selective memory when it comes to recalling the bible. They remember love and peace yet forget kill kill kill... Everything good is caused by god everything bad by devil and men... this gets really boring and redundent after a while. If a fool wishes to remain a fool then that is his/her business but unfortunetely his/her decision on this matter effects the rest of us to.

[KanadaHye]

Re: How Much of the Bible Must Be Historical to Believe?

Who said there's no cost to human injustice like slavery? That's obvious. My point was that it bothers me that the bible contains these things as well. Again, I was addressing Pepsi's question.

Read Leviticus. The whole thing is a list of all the offenses punishable by death...



Or Samuel where Saul discovers his son is homosexual and so tries to kill both him and his lover. Or Asa driving out (or exterminating) the Sodomites.

Or Romans...

Leviticus is from the Old Testament (J3wish law)

As for the quote from Romans, Paul is referring to how the people of Rome have become the scum of the Earth with extremely poor morals and that those people are worthy of death (in other words, there would be no tears shed if they died)

[Siggie]

Re: How Much of the Bible Must Be Historical to Believe?

I'd REALLY like for you to point out where Jesus teaches this course of action as punishment.

What I meant was, America paid the price for slavery through the bloodshed during the civil war. You act as though slavery doesn't exist in the world today. We will continue to pay the price as long as injustices exist.

Who said there's no cost to human injustice like slavery? That's obvious. My point was that it bothers me that the bible contains these things as well. Again, I was addressing Pepsi's question.

Read Leviticus. The whole thing is a list of all the offenses punishable by death...

20:8 And ye shall keep my statutes, and do them: I am the LORD which sanctify you.
20:9 For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.
20:10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.
20:11 And the man that lieth with his father's wife hath uncovered his father's nakedness: both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
20:12 And if a man lie with his daughter in law, both of them shall surely be put to death: they have wrought confusion; their blood shall be upon them.
20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
20:14 And if a man take a wife and her mother, it is wickedness: they shall be burnt with fire, both he and they; that there be no wickedness among you.
20:15 And if a man lie with a beast, he shall surely be put to death: and ye shall slay the beast.
20:16 And if a woman approach unto any beast, and lie down thereto, thou shalt kill the woman, and the beast: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
20:17 And if a man shall take his sister, his father's daughter, or his mother's daughter, and see her nakedness, and she see his nakedness; it is a wicked thing; and they shall be cut off in the sight of their people: he hath uncovered his sister's nakedness; he shall bear his iniquity.

Or Samuel where Saul discovers his son is homosexual and so tries to kill both him and his lover. Or Asa driving out (or exterminating) the Sodomites.

Or Romans...

1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

[KanadaHye]

Re: How Much of the Bible Must Be Historical to Believe?

O rly? That makes no sense. What you meant was that the order that we should stone homosexuals has a different price today than say 1500 years ago?

I'd REALLY like for you to point out where Jesus teaches this course of action as punishment.

What I meant was, America paid the price for slavery through the bloodshed during the civil war. You act as though slavery doesn't exist in the world today. We will continue to pay the price as long as injustices exist.

[Siggie]

Re: How Much of the Bible Must Be Historical to Believe?

No really? I REALLY thought you meant pharmaceutical prescription.... I think you misunderstood my use of the word "PRICE"

i.e. that which must be given, done, or undergone in order to obtain a thing: He gained the victory, but at a heavy price.

O rly? That makes no sense. What you meant was that the order that we should stone homosexuals has a different price today than say 1500 years ago?

[KanadaHye]

Re: How Much of the Bible Must Be Historical to Believe?

Oh dear! Unbunch your briefs! Abort the attack on Pharma for you have misunderstood! I didn't mean that kind of prescription. I meant it like the adjective prescriptive; I guess the noun form isn't as popular in common usage.

No really? I REALLY thought you meant pharmaceutical prescription.... I think you misunderstood my use of the word "PRICE"

i.e. that which must be given, done, or undergone in order to obtain a thing: He gained the victory, but at a heavy price.

[Siggie]

Re: How Much of the Bible Must Be Historical to Believe?

Reading the bible is like reading any other piece of literature.... it's open for interpretation. For example, a lawyer reading the bible is like a red neck reading a law book. Neither will absorb much from the words.

Aha! Progress. So you acknowledge that it is not a factual book.

You say something promising and then you follow it up by a nonsensical and non-humorous attempt at a joke. Why would lawyers be less capable of making sense of the bible than the average person? Surely you don't believe holders of a professional graduate degree to be somehow cognitively inferior to the general population?

What are the prescriptions we use today? Probably the same except with a heftier price tag.

Also, I'd like examples in history where "non believers" or "atheists" had to run from their homeland to escape persecution.

Oh dear! Unbunch your briefs! Abort the attack on Pharma for you have misunderstood! I didn't mean that kind of prescription. I meant it like the adjective prescriptive; I guess the noun form isn't as popular in common usage.

As I don't like to engage in frivolous exercises, I will withhold such search until you can explain how that's relevant. If nonbelievers had never been persecuted on a grand scale in the past because of the ubiquity of religion, what would that demonstrate? Would it make it any more wrong for the bible to call for their stoning? Would it change the print in the bible so that the words vanish if adherents to the religion have conveniently ignored some parts of the book in favor of emphasizing other parts?

Besides, what exactly are you trying to argue with me? Are you saying the bible doesn't say to do these things? Pepsi asked me why I don't believe the bible and I explained why. I don't see where there's room for your disagreement in that.

[KanadaHye]

Re: How Much of the Bible Must Be Historical to Believe?

Kanada, there you go again suggesting filtered/edited sources with the Bible for Dummies recommendation... Indicative of whether you yourself have read large portions of the "good" book yourself, perhaps? Do you also read Cliff/Spark/etc. Notes instead of the work of literature itself?

Reading the bible is like reading any other piece of literature.... it's open for interpretation. For example, a lawyer reading the bible is like a red neck reading a law book. Neither will absorb much from the words.

Since I was born all knowing with perfect judgement, such basic levels of theological literature are too simplistic for my liking.

Indeed. As I pointed out earlier, some of the highlights of that value system include prescriptions for how to treat rape victims, homosexuals, nonbelievers, and slaves.

What are the prescriptions we use today? Probably the same except with a heftier price tag.

Also, I'd like examples in history where "non believers" or "atheists" had to run from their homeland to escape persecution.

[Siggie]

Re: How Much of the Bible Must Be Historical to Believe?

Even if you at the very least acknowledge it was written by persons (the disciples?) and edited - ie some gospels made it in, others didn't - then there's room there too for the morality reflected within to have come from people, society, the times. You must concede this type of influence if you now believe the slavery and barbarism (demanding a stoning death sentences for the same offenses as it says).

Kanada, there you go again suggesting filtered/edited sources with the Bible for Dummies recommendation... Indicative of whether you yourself have read large portions of the "good" book yourself, perhaps? Do you also read Cliff/Spark/etc. Notes instead of the work of literature itself?

[ArmSurvival]

Re: How Much of the Bible Must Be Historical to Believe?

I don't see anything in the bible that is unique or groundbreaking. Eastern religions like Buddhism and Confucianism contained many concepts we think of as 'Christian' hundreds of years before Christianity, and so did Manichean and Zoroastrian philosophies. This is a strong indication that humans don't get morality from religion but rather religion gets its morality from humans.