Armenian lesbians/gays

[levon]

Re: Armenian lesbians/gays

I get the feeling that some of you guys really aren't meeting the right women. You seem to either run into sl*ts or the "modest virgin". I'd literally probably either kill myself or turn gay if those were the only two choices I had in life

lol... Since you don't believe in marriage, I think you'd manage.

[Sip]

Re: Armenian lesbians/gays

On a related note ... what about the modest virgin gay situation? Like if one of the gays was completely monogamous, stayed home with the kids, did all the house work etc while the other one went to work and secured them financially and otherwise ... would that be less bad?

[levon]

Re: Armenian lesbians/gays

On a related note ... what about the modest virgin gay situation? Like if one of the gays was completely monogamous, stayed home with the kids, did all the house work etc while the other one went to work and secured them financially and otherwise ... would that be less bad?

I couldn't give two sh!ts what gays do or don't. Actually, I don't care what anybody does or doesn't as long as they don't b!tch and blame others when they realize they made mistakes.

[Sip]

Re: Armenian lesbians/gays

That I can definitely respect.

[Flamenkita]

Re: Armenian lesbians/gays

The thing is, all of your categories are so value-laden! Who are you to decide what "respectable" means?

Also, wrt women's access to proper education and fertility awareness, I remember on one of my trips to Armenia, I was stationed at a village and without fail, every single young newly-married woman would come to me and ask if I had any way to help them not get pregnant. I would explain to the best of my ability some simple ways for them to track their fertility signs and avoid having sex during certain days. Most would say that the option not to have sex was not up to them but their husbands, and if, for any reason, they were not available for sex (pregnancy, menstruation, illness, exhaustion...), husbands would either force themselves or threaten to sleep with other women.

Other women would show up with odd symptoms... most often chlamydia...given to them by their wonderfully respectable husbands. Chlamydia untreated can lead to infertility. Without fail, chlamydia was passed to wives from husbands who were sleeping around, but it was wives who were devalued when they could not produce children. Additionally, in the cities, herpes type 2 was a big problem, with women coming down with symptoms, or not knowing they had been infected and giving birth to babies during an outbreak... You see? This is what your "respectable" society looks like. You are concerned with depriving women of control over their own bodies and not realizing that all the ills of society are the result of everyone in that society. If women have "loose" morals, it is because society gives them such narrow roles and so few options. You have implied it over and over yourself, that a woman who is not modest and traditional is automatically a ho or a sl*t. If there are only two possible options then by default, most women are going to fall into the default position of ho unless they are willing to relinquish all control of their bodies, minds, and spirits to the demands of patriarchy.

It is stupid. If this is what it means to be Armenian, count me out! I don't want to be "Armenian" like you people. Rather than becoming more civilized and advancing, Armenian culture is going backwards.

To tell you the truth, Arab women, according to Sunna, have more rights than what you folks are according to Armenian women. But this is nothing new. Armenians have always been among the more backward of the peoples of the East. Arab women had the option to enter "male" space, the mosque, the market, the streets, as long as she was fully veiled. Armenian women, on the other hand, lived their lives at the patriarchal compound, the home of their husbands' patriline, within a very strict hierarchical order. Arab men were allowed more than one wife provided they could give all wives the same treatment, materially, emotionally, sexually. A woman who was abused by her husband or treated unfairly had the option of returning to her family. Her father and brothers were obliged to care for her for the rest of her life. Among Armenians, once you are married, you are no longer part of your family of origin. You are the property of your husband and his family to do with as they wish. Your father will most likely not intervene if you are abused or neglected. Furthermore, abused and battered wives in Armenia are usually accused of having transgressed, and therefore deserving of the abuse.

Go do some actual reading and learn something about your people. We are not perfect. We are not any more honorable than our neighbors. And it is not foreign influence that has tampered with the Armenian character. The potential is and has always been there.

[Siggie]

Re: Armenian lesbians/gays

Feminists actually see things much more black and white. In their mind, any woman who doesn't fit their definition (i.e. a used up sl*t who works 40+ hours, has 12 cats and fantasizes about being saved from it all by a rich and handsome husband) as a village idiot who needs enlightenment. If they were as accepting as they claim to be, they would not be so against women making choices that disagree with their agenda.

Yep, I'm terrified. Please God, oh please don't ever put me in the same room as Siggie. I don't think I'll be able to survive the sheer aura of 12-cat desperation.
Going forward, don't insult me and I won't insult you.

You can mock my assertion that you're intimidated, but insulting someone instead of engaging them intellectually is a tell-tale sign of that and you did it yet again.

I guess your graduate program didn't emphasize reading comprehension or critical thinking skills. Neither Flamenkita nor I ever begrudged a woman their choice. Every woman can choose what they want and for some that will be staying at home and that's fine. If you were reading more closely, you'd have seen that that is the very choice Flamenkita has made.

Also, saying that you are young is not an insult in the same vein as you calling me an idiot and implying I'm a lonely depressed spinster to be with a dozen cats. That's the assumption/accusation you're making isn't it? All because I believe something different than you -- that women should be free to choose and that each family should decide *as a family* what arrangement works for them? Yeah, sounds like the definition of reasonableness and also kindness. Bravo! Your momma must be so proud of how she raised you! Are you also raising your children to insult other children with whom they do not agree?

Right, they view a woman that is modest or an active mother as someone "backwards" and someone "oppressed" and uneducated, when in fact dedicated mothers can be very educated and often very happy with their role in the family. They think all these women are just waiting for the chance to jump free and start sleeping with everybody and wearing mini-skirts.....and that some how your are more "progressive" if you lead such a lifestyle, but all of a sudden you are backwards when you lead a more respectable, humble, and family oriented lifestyle.....

have you heard about this political party? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminis...ative_(Sweden)

Mos!!!! Arrrrrgh! I beg you, go back and reread what we've been saying. We said there shouldn't be the kind of social pressure that effectually removes the choice. We didn't say such women are all unhappy or that they are backwards.
It's just that they should have the CHOICE. They should CHOOSE that arrangement, not be forced into it.

[levon]

Re: Armenian lesbians/gays

You can mock my assertion that you're intimidated, but insulting someone instead of engaging them intellectually is a tell-tale sign of that and you did it yet again.

Is a tell-tale sign of what? I dont like feminasties and mocking them is the only valid thing to do. You can't have an "intellectual" conversation with a dog and dogs are a level higher than feminasties. For someone who bans me because my opinions offend her cannot ask for an "intelligent" conversation. I don't care to continue any conversation with you. Why don't you go liberate female monkeys from their male monkey oppressors.

[Siggie]

Re: Armenian lesbians/gays

Is a tell-tale sign of what? I dont like feminasties and mocking them is the only valid thing to do. You can't have an "intellectual" conversation with a dog and dogs are a level higher than feminasties. For someone who bans me because my opinions offend her cannot ask for an "intelligent" conversation. I don't care to continue any conversation with you. Why don't you go liberate female monkeys from their male monkey oppressors.

Anything to avoid having to actually talk about the position you cannot defend. After I invited you to debate the issue rather than insult me, multiple times, you continue to just insult me.
I think you might also be devious enough to take the insults to another level AGAIN, rather than engage in debate about the actual topic of discussion.

No, you were banned for first calling me an idiot, then carrying on from there when I didn't react by banning you outright, which I should have done. Now you have escalated to "feminasty" which wasn't insulting enough without you also pointing out where that falls in the hierarchy relative to dogs. You have a right and have always had the right to express your opinion here. What you do not have the right to do is interfere with others' use and enjoyment of the forum by engaging in personal insults.

You have crossed the line at which I would have permanently banned others long ago. But precisely because we disagree and in an effort to not let my dislike for you and your opinions to color my vision, I have let you remain. What that's accomplished is to give you the freedom to continue to display to us what you are about and discourse with Levon involves. Regrettably, that has no place in this community. Be gone.

Click to view forum rules

If anyone would like to see how to express an opinion without engaging in personal insults, explore the differences in how Mos expressed his opinion versus how Levon did it.

[Flamenkita]

Re: Armenian lesbians/gays

Siggie, it's interesting, isn't it, that the fact that I have chosen to be home with my children seems to have escaped attention?

I feel like I am debating with fish who believe themselves to be ichthyologists, when, in fact, they really have no idea what it means that something is culturally constructed. But these folks are no more representative of the Armenian nation and culture than the Taliban or Al Qaeda are representative of Islam and Muslims. They are the fringe. They make the rest of us look bad. Actually, when I realize that I am sharing my national identity with people who think and behave like Levon, I feel ashamed and embarrased to call myself an Armenian. These people feel like they are preserving some sacred way of life, when in fact their way of life will bring on the ultimate depletion and demise of Armenia, Armenian culture and identity.

Speaking of dogs, I far prefer the company of my dog to that of the Levons of the world.

[Mos]

Re: Armenian lesbians/gays

Mos!!!! Arrrrrgh! I beg you, go back and reread what we've been saying. We said there shouldn't be the kind of social pressure that effectually removes the choice. We didn't say such women are all unhappy or that they are backwards.
It's just that they should have the CHOICE. They should CHOOSE that arrangement, not be forced into it.

No one is forcing anybody. I never said women should be forced to do certain things. I just said that women who lead a certain, more traditional lifestyle are more respectable for that and should not be vilified for their traditional choices. Society should favour such a lifestyle and encourage the family unit rather than turn against it. This is not forcing.

The thing is, all of your categories are so value-laden! Who are you to decide what "respectable" means?

Also, wrt women's access to proper education and fertility awareness, I remember on one of my trips to Armenia, I was stationed at a village and without fail, every single young newly-married woman would come to me and ask if I had any way to help them not get pregnant. I would explain to the best of my ability some simple ways for them to track their fertility signs and avoid having sex during certain days. Most would say that the option not to have sex was not up to them but their husbands, and if, for any reason, they were not available for sex (pregnancy, menstruation, illness, exhaustion...), husbands would either force themselves or threaten to sleep with other women.

Other women would show up with odd symptoms... most often chlamydia...given to them by their wonderfully respectable husbands. Chlamydia untreated can lead to infertility. Without fail, chlamydia was passed to wives from husbands who were sleeping around, but it was wives who were devalued when they could not produce children. Additionally, in the cities, herpes type 2 was a big problem, with women coming down with symptoms, or not knowing they had been infected and giving birth to babies during an outbreak... You see? This is what your "respectable" society looks like. You are concerned with depriving women of control over their own bodies and not realizing that all the ills of society are the result of everyone in that society. If women have "loose" morals, it is because society gives them such narrow roles and so few options. You have implied it over and over yourself, that a woman who is not modest and traditional is automatically a ho or a sl*t. If there are only two possible options then by default, most women are going to fall into the default position of ho unless they are willing to relinquish all control of their bodies, minds, and spirits to the demands of patriarchy.

It is stupid. If this is what it means to be Armenian, count me out! I don't want to be "Armenian" like you people. Rather than becoming more civilized and advancing, Armenian culture is going backwards.

To tell you the truth, Arab women, according to Sunna, have more rights than what you folks are according to Armenian women. But this is nothing new. Armenians have always been among the more backward of the peoples of the East. Arab women had the option to enter "male" space, the mosque, the market, the streets, as long as she was fully veiled. Armenian women, on the other hand, lived their lives at the patriarchal compound, the home of their husbands' patriline, within a very strict hierarchical order. Arab men were allowed more than one wife provided they could give all wives the same treatment, materially, emotionally, sexually. A woman who was abused by her husband or treated unfairly had the option of returning to her family. Her father and brothers were obliged to care for her for the rest of her life. Among Armenians, once you are married, you are no longer part of your family of origin. You are the property of your husband and his family to do with as they wish. Your father will most likely not intervene if you are abused or neglected. Furthermore, abused and battered wives in Armenia are usually accused of having transgressed, and therefore deserving of the abuse.

Go do some actual reading and learn something about your people. We are not perfect. We are not any more honorable than our neighbors. And it is not foreign influence that has tampered with the Armenian character. The potential is and has always been there.

Well honestly I am appalled that those women would start talking about their sex lives with a stranger. The sex life of a woman is between her and his man, not to be discussed in public or strangers, amot a for God's sakes. I'm sure their husbands are pleased that they are doing this behind their back and bad mouthing them to strangers. Just appalling honestly.

And I'm sure Armenian women have more freedom than Arab women lol, don't know what you are tying to imply here...