Armenian lesbians/gays

[KanadaHye]

Re: Armenian lesbians/gays

That's interesting, I didn't see her saying that at all. She simply described the dynamic in her family and expressed a preference for that. Where did she say she defeated the oppressive male system? I don't think she even presented her household growing-up that way.

And if she had said that...
Is it really different from implying that women who don't subscribe to the "traditional" gender roles are promiscuous (and of course that's not the word that was used).

Well, I don't get where Armenian women get off by saying that the men hold them back... in most cases Armenian fathers end up paying for an education for their daughters while the sons pay their own way or go straight to work after high school. At least that's the way I see it in the diaspora. Then the daughters complain about how the Armenian men are uneducated so they end up with odars. Seems like a catch 22 doesn't it.

[Flamenkita]

Re: Armenian lesbians/gays

Well, I don't get where Armenian women get off by saying that the men hold them back... in most cases Armenian fathers end up paying for an education for their daughters while the sons pay their own way or go straight to work after high school. At least that's the way I see it in the diaspora. Then the daughters complain about how the Armenian men are uneducated so they end up with odars. Seems like a catch 22 doesn't it.

Now we're talking! There is just as much pressure on men to fit into pre-ordained lifestyles, and men perceive that they are valued by their families based upon how much money they earn. Therefore, they may not pursue higher education beyond what they need in order to make enough money to establish themselves as legitimate earners, as "real" men. And women, who don't have that kind of pressure, do go and acquire higher education. But then you end up with this terrible large-scale mismatch. You end up with men who don't have the level of education of the women, and who, as a result, have not had the opportunity to question the beliefs they inherited from their families. Meanwhile that is what happens in 4 year liberal art colleges, and in graduate programs in things other than math, some hard sciences, engineering, etc. If a man hasn't bothered to immerse himself into literature and the humanities, he will have very little in common with a woman who has a degree in political science, or art history, or history, or psychology, or comparative literature. It's a shame, really.

I know many Armenian women who are educated, self-sufficient, independent and who would like to meet Armenian men with whom to make a life. What happens is that, after dating several, they realize they have two choices. Either stay single forever or marry out. Men, by a similar token, end up either marrying women younger than themselves, or women who come from the "old country", or women who are not Armenian. There is still this crazy deluded notion in circulation that, with enough money a man can have any woman he wants.

Armenian men are just as much victims of the system as women are. It's like the tea party folks: They are fighting to the death for causes that are contrary to their own best interest.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Armenian lesbians/gays

Now we're talking! There is just as much pressure on men to fit into pre-ordained lifestyles, and men perceive that they are valued by their families based upon how much money they earn. Therefore, they may not pursue higher education beyond what they need in order to make enough money to establish themselves as legitimate earners, as "real" men. And women, who don't have that kind of pressure, do go and acquire higher education. But then you end up with this terrible large-scale mismatch. You end up with men who don't have the level of education of the women, and who, as a result, have not had the opportunity to question the beliefs they inherited from their families. Meanwhile that is what happens in 4 year liberal art colleges, and in graduate programs in things other than math, some hard sciences, engineering, etc. If a man hasn't bothered to immerse himself into literature and the humanities, he will have very little in common with a woman who has a degree in political science, or art history, or history, or psychology, or comparative literature. It's a shame, really.

I know many Armenian women who are educated, self-sufficient, independent and who would like to meet Armenian men with whom to make a life. What happens is that, after dating several, they realize they have two choices. Either stay single forever or marry out. Men, by a similar token, end up either marrying women younger than themselves, or women who come from the "old country", or women who are not Armenian. There is still this crazy deluded notion in circulation that, with enough money a man can have any woman he wants.

Armenian men are just as much victims of the system as women are. It's like the tea party folks: They are fighting to the death for causes that are contrary to their own best interest.

Statistically, if you look at education levels, you'll see that women outnumber men in post secondary education. Where do men stand? Usually working in auto plants, production facilities, construction, mining... the dirty but necessary jobs that keep the world going. Companies are hiring women out of college and university by the droves.... it's good for business but bad for society. Pre-ordained? Maybe. However, if you know that there is a filing order and you don't want to be classified in a filing cabinet that someone has made for you then you have to find a way out

[Siggie]

Re: Armenian lesbians/gays

Well, I don't get where Armenian women get off by saying that the men hold them back... in most cases Armenian fathers end up paying for an education for their daughters while the sons pay their own way or go straight to work after high school. At least that's the way I see it in the diaspora. Then the daughters complain about how the Armenian men are uneducated so they end up with odars. Seems like a catch 22 doesn't it.

Interesting. Let me tell you a Diasporan tale of a brother and sister.

The sister started working at age 16 and worked her way through college, graduate school, and more graduate school. She left, was unemployed about 7 months and then found a job and is presently employed. She got no kind of allowance after becoming employed at 16 and paid for much of her personal needs (clothing, gas, car payment, car insurance, entertainment, etc.) and the parents (not father, it's BOTH parents' money) paid tuition when there wasn't a scholarship or grant to fund the education.

The brother didn't work until much later, maybe about age 20. He worked for about 6 months and then left that job. A year or so later, he got another job which he kept for almost a year. When he got laid off from that job, he decided it was too much to do both and he'd focus on finally graduating. He graduated nearly 3 years ago and is still unemployed. Part of that because he decided to supplement his coursework with some additional training at a local college. The parents gave him an allowance, paid for his gas, insurance, car, etc. and the money he earned he spent on his personal purchases (e.g. clothing, entertainment, electronics, etc.). The parents paid his tuition.

Other Diaspora families I've seen give their children the same opportunities as well. What they do for one child, they do for all.
If anything, I see some devaluing of education for the female children because they don't think the women need it (they don't need to be competitive in the job market when they're going to get married and raise children at home instead, right?). This, at least among Armenians I interact with, isn't so much that they won't pay for the daughters' educations if she desires to go, but instead that it's not encouraged to the same degree.

[Siggie]

Re: Armenian lesbians/gays

Now we're talking! There is just as much pressure on men to fit into pre-ordained lifestyles, and men perceive that they are valued by their families based upon how much money they earn. Therefore, they may not pursue higher education beyond what they need in order to make enough money to establish themselves as legitimate earners, as "real" men. And women, who don't have that kind of pressure, do go and acquire higher education. But then you end up with this terrible large-scale mismatch. You end up with men who don't have the level of education of the women, and who, as a result, have not had the opportunity to question the beliefs they inherited from their families. Meanwhile that is what happens in 4 year liberal art colleges, and in graduate programs in things other than math, some hard sciences, engineering, etc. If a man hasn't bothered to immerse himself into literature and the humanities, he will have very little in common with a woman who has a degree in political science, or art history, or history, or psychology, or comparative literature. It's a shame, really.

I know many Armenian women who are educated, self-sufficient, independent and who would like to meet Armenian men with whom to make a life. What happens is that, after dating several, they realize they have two choices. Either stay single forever or marry out. Men, by a similar token, end up either marrying women younger than themselves, or women who come from the "old country", or women who are not Armenian. There is still this crazy deluded notion in circulation that, with enough money a man can have any woman he wants.

Armenian men are just as much victims of the system as women are. It's like the tea party folks: They are fighting to the death for causes that are contrary to their own best interest.

Stressing the bolded. Seen this in my experience too.

[Sip]

Re: Armenian lesbians/gays

Hey y'all need to lay off bashing my buddy Kanada here ... EVERY good multi-page discussion needs the completely unwavering and absurd point of view to keep it going But as far as insulting, I wouldn't take any insults kanada throws out too personally.

I mean where else are you going to get amazing facts like "Statistically, if you look at education levels, you'll see that women outnumber men in post secondary education." (I know you mean Armena but it it would help to clarify that )... perhaps from the same line of reasoning that brought us the famous "Ancient greeks and romans were far more advanced than us"

[KanadaHye]

Re: Armenian lesbians/gays

Hey y'all need to lay off bashing my buddy Kanada here ... EVERY good multi-page discussion needs the completely unwavering and absurd point of view to keep it going But as far as insulting, I wouldn't take any insults kanada throws out too personally.

I mean where else are you going to get amazing facts like "Statistically, if you look at education levels, you'll see that women outnumber men in post secondary education." (I know you mean Armena but it it would help to clarify that )... perhaps from the same line of reasoning that brought us the famous "Ancient greeks and romans were far more advanced than us"

No man, those are real world figures. There are more women getting degrees than men since men can work jobs that require labour without education. Makes sense if you think about it.

[Siggie]

Re: Armenian lesbians/gays

No man, those are real world figures. There are more women getting degrees than men since men can work jobs that require labour without education. Makes sense if you think about it.

Last I checked women can clean toilets, empty trash cans, and pick fruit too.

Where are these statistics you're looking at? I work at a college and have to report this sh!t day in and day out (to the state, country, chancellor, and various campus programs/depts) and we're roughly equal between genders overall unless you're defining in the strictest sense and calling anything over 50% a majority. If you divide by disciplines, you might see it slant.

[Siggie]

Re: Armenian lesbians/gays

It's more even at my college, but I'll help you out... Here's Glendale Community College where there's a massive Armenian student population.

It got to 60% female and now it's swinging back... Sooooo disproportionate.

http://research.glendale.edu/html/campusprofile/cre-03-fal.html

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Hey y'all need to lay off bashing my buddy Kanada here ... EVERY good multi-page discussion needs the completely unwavering and absurd point of view to keep it going But as far as insulting, I wouldn't take any insults kanada throws out too personally.

I mean where else are you going to get amazing facts like "Statistically, if you look at education levels, you'll see that women outnumber men in post secondary education." (I know you mean Armena but it it would help to clarify that )... perhaps from the same line of reasoning that brought us the famous "Ancient greeks and romans were far more advanced than us"

this post = teh win.

[Mos]

Re: Armenian lesbians/gays

The liberal "cultured" women in Armenia crack me up. Their views are often very naive and based on what ever Western propaganda they hear in Levon's media outlets or organisations like "Pink". They are usually ashamed of their culture and prefer the globalised culture of the West (which I wouldn't call a 'culture') Fortunately they are a small minority. And most look like the two in the photo (the two in the centre )