Armenian lesbians/gays

[KanadaHye]

Re: Armenian lesbians/gays

When it comes to women sleeping around... Regardless of the moral implications, theres no way to stop it aside from parental education & applying indirect influence via the family unit or social circles. Many won't do it either way, and many will. In a way its fine to give women the same freedom as men. If we lived in a society where women were forced into social roles such as pretending to be decent, honest and caring, being pressured into marriages because they have no other male options, you will get many situations where later on in life the husband will find out the woman is actually none of those things and is living a double life behind his back. Instead of forcing women to be decent, honest & caring, and then later realizing they don't give a rats ass about any of those things, if women were able to choose their path in life from 0 to 100 and were open about it, we as men would be better able to figure out which women genuinely have these great characteristics: Hardly any

Characteristics and traits are inherited from parents and more broadly, society. If you left children to be raised by wolves, they would genuinely adopt those characteristics. As far as an individual choosing their path in life, the paths that someone can take are limited by the doors that others open or don't open for them. Essentially, a woman's ability to engage in extramarital affairs is largely due in part by society finding it acceptable. The culture that's being adopted around the world right now is temporary and unsustainable as there aren't enough resources available every individual to live in a bubble, free of being bound by family units and social circles. Basically, the breakdown of the family unit was just a precursor to enslaving the individual and robbing people of their inheritance, whether land or monetary. You'll find that in most of the larger cities, individuals have widely accepted that making monthly payments and leasing their living spaces is just part of life. I suppose one can say that the "American Dream" of owning property has come to an end... quite abruptly due to the breakdown of the family unit.

[Flamenkita]

Re: Armenian lesbians/gays

It never ceases to amaze me how people who feel they are not in control of their lives (for whatever reason) are compelled to control the lives of others, namely the lives of women and children.

If men want women to stop sleeping around, then they, too, should stop sleeping around. First control your own urges (if you can...) and then insist that others do as well. But then, here's what happens. When sexual urges are not given opportunity for appropriate expression, they quickly morph into aggression, toward the self and toward others. That's where you get cultures, like the Taliban, who channel their sexual urges into aggression toward women who, they believe, are the cause of their distraction from the work of God. So, women are disgraced and stoned, or are forced to marry their rapists (with the implication that they had some agency in the rape just by being in the wrong place at the wrong time), or are locked into incestuous relationships with their elder male kinsmen. Yes, it's an extreme example that may not map onto the Armenian situation exactly, but it is one possible outcome of the kinds of things some men on this forum seem to be suggesting.

Please! I've seen how nice, honorable Armenian husbands have manhandled their wives.

Also, regarding the "American Dream", the nice thing about it is that all dreams are subject to interpretation. Each individual has his or her own dreams, and these things may not necessarily be contingent upon ownership or the amassing of property. The Native Americans had no concept of land ownership. Many languages still don't have indigenous words for private property, and if they do, they borrow from other languages. Ownership is not a prerequisite of a happy life. In fact, one could argue that ownership is what brings the kinds of headaches people deal with.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Armenian lesbians/gays

It never ceases to amaze me how people who feel they are not in control of their lives (for whatever reason) are compelled to control the lives of others, namely the lives of women and children.

If men want women to stop sleeping around, then they, too, should stop sleeping around. First control your own urges (if you can...) and then insist that others do as well. But then, here's what happens. When sexual urges are not given opportunity for appropriate expression, they quickly morph into aggression, toward the self and toward others. That's where you get cultures, like the Taliban, who channel their sexual urges into aggression toward women who, they believe, are the cause of their distraction from the work of God. So, women are disgraced and stoned, or are forced to marry their rapists (with the implication that they had some agency in the rape just by being in the wrong place at the wrong time), or are locked into incestuous relationships with their elder male kinsmen. Yes, it's an extreme example that may not map onto the Armenian situation exactly, but it is one possible outcome of the kinds of things some men on this forum seem to be suggesting.

Please! I've seen how nice, honorable Armenian husbands have manhandled their wives.

Also, regarding the "American Dream", the nice thing about it is that all dreams are subject to interpretation. Each individual has his or her own dreams, and these things may not necessarily be contingent upon ownership or the amassing of property. The Native Americans had no concept of land ownership. Many languages still don't have indigenous words for private property, and if they do, they borrow from other languages. Ownership is not a prerequisite of a happy life. In fact, one could argue that ownership is what brings the kinds of headaches people deal with.

Interesting. So you somehow think that women and children shouldn't be bound to rules, everything appears out of thin air (cars, food, housing, etc.). Liberal thought never ceases to amaze me. I can also guarantee that you've never been to Afghanistan and haven't a clue what the "Taliban" are/were nor do you know the history of that region of the world or how/why the Taliban was funded and by whom.

[Siggie]

Re: Armenian lesbians/gays

Interesting. So you somehow think that women and children shouldn't be bound to rules, everything appears out of thin air (cars, food, housing, etc.). Liberal thought never ceases to amaze me. I can also guarantee that you've never been to Afghanistan and haven't a clue what the "Taliban" are/were nor do you know the history of that region of the world or how/why the Taliban was funded and by whom.

She didn't say women and children should not be bound by any rules. She said it seems to her that people who feel like they lack control over their own lives seem to be compelled to try to control others. Those others tend to be women and children. I hope that helped with your misinterpretation of her words. Don't want you to waste your time with a straw argument.

Also, in the interest of saving time -- if how the Taliban was funded or by whom it was funded influenced the types of social rules the taliban constructed and enforced, then please enlighten us as to how this occurred and which rules were involved. Otherwise, I fail to see how whether she's been to Afghanistan, who funded the Taliban, etc. makes any difference at all to the larger point she was making. She only used the Taliban as ONE extreme illustration of the larger idea she was expressing. You're doing that thing you do again where you choose to argue small irrelevant details instead of the real issue/topic.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Armenian lesbians/gays

She didn't say women and children should not be bound by any rules. She said it seems to her that people who feel like they lack control over their own lives seem to be compelled to try to control others. Those others tend to be women and children. I hope that helped with your misinterpretation of her words. Don't want you to waste your time with a straw argument.

Also, in the interest of saving time -- if how the Taliban was funded or by whom it was funded influenced the types of social rules the taliban constructed and enforced, then please enlighten us as to how this occurred and which rules were involved. Otherwise, I fail to see how whether she's been to Afghanistan, who funded the Taliban, etc. makes any difference at all to the larger point she was making. She only used the Taliban as ONE extreme illustration of the larger idea she was expressing. You're doing that thing you do again where you choose to argue small irrelevant details instead of the real issue/topic.

Well, I suppose if you want extreme illustrations, you can illustrate the role of madams in prostitution rings. The point is, control over territory and other beings is inherent to nature. Whether you study the role of queen bees or queen ants or the role of kings and queens in society, you'll find that the "workers" have the same roles in both the animal kingdom and the human kingdom. So unless there is admittance that women are just as if not more controlling than men, the entire house made of straws is bound to fall down

[Flamenkita]

Re: Armenian lesbians/gays

Who said women were not capable of being controlling? And I see we're back to the "well, that is how nature intends things to be" way of explaining away things that are, in fact, social constructions.

Have you seen the film Vodka Lemon, incidentally? There you have some very good illustrations of the kinds of gender and power relations that I'm talking about. And that's not even the main point of the film.

[Flamenkita]

Re: Armenian lesbians/gays

Siggie, his point is that the Taliban was funded by the West.

Let me just clarify that just because I believe in gender equality (which is mostly associated with Western cultures), doesn't mean I approve wholesale all the policies and actions of the Western governments. But it is nice that I can express my disapproval of how my government behaves in the world without being afraid for my life, and without being accused of being insubordinate to the men who make decisions.

I think much of what is happening in Afghanistan has to do with the illegal trafficking of narcotic drugs, and I place the blame for that squarely on the shoulders of the White European power brokers who saw it to their advantage to carpet that whole area with opium poppies. Believe me when I say I feel no sympathy at all for Europeans who feel superior and entitled.

I am writing from a family systems perspective, and it has been shown that, in all cases, families function better when there is an active effort to transcend narrow gender roles and attitudes in the home. Europeans and Americans are often just as narrow minded and chauvinistic as folks from the East. And, when it comes down to it, men everywhere will protect patriarchal privilege, and will cross cultural and religious lines to preserve their primacy in social relations.

[Siggie]

Re: Armenian lesbians/gays

Flam, I thought as much, but wanted to see how/why he thought that invalidated anything you were saying.

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Kanada, if you put the antagonistic approach on pause long enough to really listen to what we have been saying and to continue the dialogue in that way, I think you'd find that what we're saying isn't as objectionable as your initial assessment has been.

Certainly, women can be controlling too and if it overall it was women creating rules to limit the freedom of men, I would object to that too. Gender equality goes both ways. Rigid gender roles are harmful to both genders.

And, yes there's lot of effed up stuff about the West and I am aware (albeit very broadly) of the Afghanistan back story.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Armenian lesbians/gays

The notion of gender equality in the West was adopted in the early 20th century and has, in my eyes been a half-assed attempt. Many of the Latin languages have male/female associations with the language whereas there aren't even masculine or feminine associations in the Armenian language. Also, from what I've noticed, first generation Armenians who migrated to the Americas were successful in both education/business and family life which wouldn't have been possible without a gender balance in place (meaning men and women aided the other to attain success). The current Armenian mentality which most people refer to is a mixture of damage sustained by Soviet, European, Western, Pan-Turkic, Islam and what ever else we've obtained/sustained since driven from our homelands.

[Siggie]

Re: Armenian lesbians/gays

The notion of gender equality in the West was adopted in the early 20th century and has, in my eyes been a half-assed attempt. Many of the Latin languages have male/female associations with the language whereas there aren't even masculine or feminine associations in the Armenian language. Also, from what I've noticed, first generation Armenians who migrated to the Americas were successful in both education/business and family life which wouldn't have been possible without a gender balance in place (meaning men and women aided the other to attain success). The current Armenian mentality which most people refer to is a mixture of damage sustained by Soviet, European, Western, Pan-Turkic, Islam and what ever else we've obtained/sustained since driven from our homelands.

Just to get on the same page, what are the major changes in the mentality that you have observed?