Working with Turks

[Anonymouse]

i just cant believe in an organization which shamelessly takes advantage of a senile, ill old man with alzheimer's disease & dupes him into donating all his family's savings to the "church" just before he dies & then when his family, who are now left in ruins, go back to the "church" & ask for their money back (im talking about close to 100 thousand dollars) the lying prick with a priest collar around his neck told them straight up that the money was already spent & they couldnt have ANY of it back. it was the "church's" money now.... how can u spend 100 000 dollars in a week?? answer: u give most of it to ur superiors & put the rest in ur pocket & claim its been spent. how can u steal 100 000 dollars from a dying old man & his family?? answer: u gotta be a criminal. how can u steal 100 000 dollars from a dying old man & his family & get away with it?? answer: u gotta be a criminal with a priest collar....

The only problem I have with your position here, is something I have noticed in many people, including Crimson Glow in the Scientology thread.

You just brought up an example of how someone voluntarily donates and gives money to something they believe in, such as an organization, or a Church. But this to you folks translates as something negative. You will all too often state "They want to make money off of those dupes". Well, pray tell, who doesn't? Critics of religion and Church who say "They want to rip you off and make money", forget that it is voluntary and nothing is forced. You somehow forget that the biggest criminal of "making money" are governments. Every government extracts its money via coercion ( i.e. taxation ). I don't see you folks parading against that. That's legitimate because it is coercive, but when someone voluntarily does it it is "negative". What's this hang up with people associating "making money" as being negative. Making money is not a bad thing. Money is part of this world and it can both serve good and serve evil. This is similar to people who blame guns for murders, not realizing that guns can do both good and bad things, it is mans nature that is dual. A knife can kill a person, but it can also be used to cut a salad.

[ardenik]

guns cannot do good things. except to threaten another guy with a gun who is about to shoot u.. so bottom line, guns cannot do good things.

i understand what ure saying, anon, & i agree. i have no problems with volutary donations. but u must realize the gravity of this particular situation. the man was very old, senile, had a serious case of alzheimer's & was really not at all in control of himself. i mean, the guy died less than a week after the donation. a donation which he did not make by his own decision, but was convinced to do so by the master champions of mind-control, who saw the opportunity as easy as taking candy from a baby.. even easier, considering babies will cry after u take their candy & they dont usually DIE within the following week... u see what im saying?

not to mention the fact that this man was not a millionnaire to be able to afford donating 100 000 dollars to any organization. he gave them EVERYTHING & his family was left with NOTHING.. they lost everything they owned... they were not millionnaires. they were regular people.

[Anonymouse]

guns cannot do good things. except to threaten another guy with a gun who is about to shoot u.. so bottom line, guns cannot do good things.

Ever heard of self-defense? It is the right of every person to defend themselves. If someone is coming to kill me or is stealing and damaging my property, that gun will save me, thus doing exactly what you claimed it could not do. To deny this is to deny the axiom that man has a dual nature. Such statements usually come from people who say "People don't kill people, Guns kill people". The fallacy of such logic is only laffable.

i understand what ure saying, anon, & i agree. i have no problems with volutary donations. but u must realize the gravity of this particular situation. the man was very old, senile, had a serious case of alzheimer's & was really not at all in control of himself. i mean, the guy died less than a week after the donation. a donation which he did not make by his own decision, but was convinced to do so by the master champions of mind-control, who saw the opportunity as easy as taking candy from a baby.. even easier, considering babies will cry after u take their candy & they dont usually DIE within the following week... u see what im saying?

While I'm not a tashnag nor an AYF, I am hard pressed to believe that they forced this man to give up his money. Once again, you are arguing a straw man. You are making the case again, although more subtly, that somehow he was coerced out of his money, when it was voluntary. What about the man before he had Alzheimer's? He was most likely still involved in it and still believed in it. It does not matter for what you think his reasons are but that man was initially intruiged and interested in that organization for him to be there, to begin with, unless someone forced him at gun point to attend meetings, gatherings and be involved, I cannot accept your reasoning.

not to mention the fact that this man was not a millionnaire to be able to afford donating 100 000 dollars to any organization. he gave them EVERYTHING & his family was left with NOTHING.. they lost everything they owned... they were not millionnaires. they were regular people.

Who cares if he was not a millionaire? It was his money and it was his involvement with that organization. It shouldn't concern you or anyone else what voluntary actions do. Did they lose everything? Did they end up living on the street? Please, unless you can verify this, I do not want to read exaggerated statements. The bottom line is, when people do voluntary business, it is condemned as somehow "being evil", when you have not proven how a voluntary action is coercive. The same applies to socialists who continually bash corporations such as Wal-Mart because somehow people voluntarily choose to do business there, it is somehow "sucking their money".

[xBaron Dants]

Blame the politicians.
But still ARF is the one who is doing something among spiourkahayutiun. My acne is growing b/c I am sick and tired of excusing ARF from my point of view. Who cares, I believe in it and I think it does a work. Everything depends on your beliefs, thank God we have the ability to believe what we want to believe, no one can convince me the opposite and don't bring further reasons to prove me wrong. Even in this little forum 20 hayer chen karoganum lezu ktnel irar het, sad so so sad.

Peace, el inch karam vor inch asem

This reminds me of the ostrich who sticks its head in the ground when it's afraid.

We can all believe in a lot of things. I can believe that Moosh, Gars, Ardahan and Ararad are all part of Armenia as we speak. Doesn't make it true.

As ardenik said, the ARF is a goosagtsootyoon. Nothing more, nothing less. And the fact remains that our political leadership has failed in pretty much everything it has tried. Even in the spurkhayootyoon, its failure is now very very obvious. And what's even worse is that each organization is sure that, in their incompetence, it is more competent than all the other ones.

In the end, all Armenians know that something is going wrong, yet a large part will make no association between our situation today, and our political, religious and social leadership, mainly because it wants to have some sort of victory to celebrate, despite the obvious reality that there really isn't much that has been done (positively)...

[Anonymouse]

In the end, all Armenians know that something is going wrong, yet a large part will make no association between our situation today, and our political, religious and social leadership, mainly because it wants to have some sort of victory to celebrate, despite the obvious reality that there really isn't much that has been done (positively)...

Agreed .

[dstyle]

You guys are kidding right? Not much has been done, oh please, that's a very pessimistic view of occurences in the last 90 years. I agree the first 50 after the genocide were spent just surviving, but since then there has been so much our people have been through, I agree most organizations haven't done anything, or they've sold themselves to the highest bidder but to put the ARF in that category is ridiculous. Any chance you get ha baron lol. I'm not anti buttt, oh God help me.

About Lisbon, you can believe what you want to arden, can't fault you for that, but I don't agree obviously. Terrorism is a word made up by those in power, basically a certain people can massacre, kill but its ok because they are a power, but when the weaker people attack with the only means they have, thats terrorism lol yaaaa right. Man this is too many arguments for a saturday morning. good bye.

[Anonymouse]

Indeed, the definition of terrorism is ambiguous. Even a State can be defined as terrorists.

With that said, no, not much has been done. Armenian leadership has been nothing but a complete failure.

[ardenik]

About Lisbon, you can believe what you want to arden, can't fault you for that, but I don't agree obviously. Terrorism is a word made up by those in power, basically a certain people can massacre, kill but its ok because they are a power, but when the weaker people attack with the only means they have, thats terrorism lol yaaaa right. Man this is too many arguments for a saturday morning. good bye.

I'm not saying when a powerful organization/government makes an attempt at a race's existence that thats more acceptable than terrorism.. in fact its much worse because it affects many many more ppl.

what the ottomans did was genocide.. thats like terrorism on steroids.. it is indeed infinitely worse than what the lisbon 5 did, u cant compare.. however, im not one to believe that actions such as what the lisbon 5 did is a solution to any problem & on the contrary, it just makes things worse. so i see the lisbon 5 as terrorists. their means is an anti-solution.. the total OPPOSITE of what a solution is... in general, armenia is not exactly at the top of the world's list for producing terrorists & im really happy about that. because that means that u can travel to any country & being armenian is not gonna be an excuse for them to strip-search u. i like that idea. & what the lisbon 5 did is like taking a step (or a leap, rather) in the name of all armenians in the world in the direction of becoming a race which would arouse suspicion about terrorism. & i dont like that. & tahts why i hope they burn in hell.

[ardenik]

Ever heard of self-defense? It is the right of every person to defend themselves. If someone is coming to kill me or is stealing and damaging my property, that gun will save me, thus doing exactly what you claimed it could not do. To deny this is to deny the axiom that man has a dual nature. Such statements usually come from people who say "People don't kill people, Guns kill people". The fallacy of such logic is only laffable.



While I'm not a tashnag nor an AYF, I am hard pressed to believe that they forced this man to give up his money. Once again, you are arguing a straw man. You are making the case again, although more subtly, that somehow he was coerced out of his money, when it was voluntary. What about the man before he had Alzheimer's? He was most likely still involved in it and still believed in it. It does not matter for what you think his reasons are but that man was initially intruiged and interested in that organization for him to be there, to begin with, unless someone forced him at gun point to attend meetings, gatherings and be involved, I cannot accept your reasoning.



Who cares if he was not a millionaire? It was his money and it was his involvement with that organization. It shouldn't concern you or anyone else what voluntary actions do. Did they lose everything? Did they end up living on the street? Please, unless you can verify this, I do not want to read exaggerated statements. The bottom line is, when people do voluntary business, it is condemned as somehow "being evil", when you have not proven how a voluntary action is coercive. The same applies to socialists who continually bash corporations such as Wal-Mart because somehow people voluntarily choose to do business there, it is somehow "sucking their money".

anon, i guess i wouldnt expect u to believe all this just because im telling u. uve never met me & so im not exactly a very reliable source to u. if u ask me to prove something, i cant do that. its just something that happened to somebody i know, a family who are close to my family, & its one of the reasons why i dont trust these goosagtsoutiouns for anything, including ARF. im not here to convince u of anything, but if u ask me why i feel this way, that story is one of my reasons. i would not expect u to believe me simply because i told u. but i know its true.

[dstyle]

I would say I hope you join them, but I personally doubt they'd be in hell, so I'd rather you not.