Political Systems and Nation States

[omniscient]

hey jahannamesh im saying it because i dont like politics and i think its worthless and pure garbage and evil. so i dont like seeing it in the forum thats why i kept saying it. and AC should make a politics forum not just armenian, but politics so everyone can post the worthless crap there. so i still think we should have a general politics forum and get this thread out here. and thats the fourth time i said it, do you have a problem with that jahannamesh

* working to find a way to repair jahannam's dumb brain (hopefully there will be a cure)

[surferarmo]

Politics is no more evil than business, economics, medicine, or law. Everthing that deals with people involves politics. Even when we talk on this forum there are politics. It exists in the work place, it exists in church, even at the dinner table with your family. For instance, your arguement about how you think politics is worthless is in itself politics. You are trying to take your point of view and impose it on the rest of us to serve your personal interests. Your interest in this case is to erase "politics" in its academic sense from the general discussion forum and make a new forum concerning general politics. I, on the other hand, believe that it is good to have politics mixed in with the normal friendly discussions of forumers. It shows how important it is, and we can all learn new things about the human and his reasons for creating the polity in the first place.

[omniscient]

yes exactly, politics is everywhere and in everything. thats why this world is so xxxxed up and evil :idea:

[surferarmo]

Great new topic omniscient. The world might be evil because we took politics to a personal level, rather than for the state. Which leads us right back to the idea of the nation. Is the individual as guilty as a nation when it committs a crime?

[omniscient]

Great new topic omniscient. The world might be evil because we took politics to a personal level, rather than for the state. Which leads us right back to the idea of the nation. Is the individual as guilty as a nation when it committs a crime?

fine fiiiine, ill discuss politics too . even though we take politics to a personal level I still dont think we are that guilty when our nation commits a crime. to some extent it is but thats a very limited extent. the govt is more guilty then the individual if thats what youre asking. ill get into more detail when i have time. lol see damn politics everything you write takes up a lot of time. when it comes to politics each individual has a lot to express and thats why if youve noticed this thread has like 10 posts that are half a page or more long.

[Anonymouse]

This isn't about being alone. Patlajan has misunderstood what I have said and has yet to address the contradictions of the state and the criticisms I've offered. The misunderstanding about the individual vs the state and of lack of centralization, in essence, what anarchism is mainly about, hasn't gone ignored. I have yet to see him address anything new aside from the same old "anarchy is chaos" argument which holds no merit. Trivial examples such as cigarettes have nothing to do with what is the topic at hand. Cigarette production and in fact organization isn't absent from anarchism, but it is free of the industrial centralization that exists in the form of corporate globalization. The belief that stripping away the present system would take us back to stone age shows exactly the average persons misunderstanding with anarchism. In essence, such people have been conditioned to think that without a big daddy in the form of a government, no organization can exist.

As far as causes go, why is "our cause" better than theirs? These are people who are fighting for their ability for self determination and not have the U.S. meddle in their affairs. The U.S. history in the middle East is a brutal one and a closer look into it will tell you why they hate America. The continued U.S. support of the terrorist state of Israel with American taxpayer money is another major reason. The U.S. created these terrorists so now they keep the masses in fear to rally behind their cause, no differently than the U.S. does. The terrorists don't hate us because of cultural envy, yet many are conditioned to think so. So some dozen and a half "terrorists" carefully plotted and carried out the destruction of the WTC knowing full well that they were going to be killed in the process for no other reason than resentment of the fact that we have MTV and Calvin Klein jeans and women who can go out into public without being covered by a tent. I'm sorry but that's horse pucky.

Then you gon on attempting to seperate a nation and an individual by trying to justify violence. If individuals cause violence it is bad, but nations are justifed. But nations are the collective force of individuals. So what you're saying is violence when done by nation states is okay, but otherwise individuals aren't allowed to since the nation is greater than the individual, nevermind that all contributions to mankind and creativity flow from individuals, not nations.

To the extent you identify yourself with the state, you are distressed confronting the destructive nature of how all governments including the one under which you live behave. You project any negative qualities onto others, against whom you then take a morally righteous stance and insist upon punishing them for our inadequacies of character. If the United States has created chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons, we will go to war with Iraq for allegedly trying to acquire such weapons for themselves. America will condemn North Korea for having nuclear missiles, even though the US is the only country in history that has actually used such weapons against civilian populations.

Your allusion that terrorists are ruining your "freedom" is a misnomer, since freedom in the absolute sense is just a word/idea. However, why are terrorists getting in the way of your liberty ( a more precise term )? That is because of the actions of America has a nation. Every since the Enlightenment, nations have been growing and getting bigger, and society is moving closer and closer to centralization and globalization, and power is amassing in the hands of fewer and fewer people, and the death toll is rising even more. There must be a reason why terrorists hate this country. As I've said, a country requires an allegience and an allegiance requires a cause, and so in order for this nation to exist they must create causes ( Red menace, Cold War, Terrorism ), in order to justify their existence and make you believe that your "freedom is threatened". What is our cause anyway? This neverending "cause" that all nation states supposedly speak of has been in action since the Enlightenment and all it has done is stifle individualism and creativity, centralized power and wealth in the hands of fewer people, and causes more bloodshed than anything else.

The apparatus of the state has neither the capability nor the inclination to protect any of your interests. To the contrary, you are expected to provide the means including your very lives in order to protect the state, hence why the people fight the wars for the state, not the other way around, so how is the state protecting your interests? This is why wars have always increased the powers of political systems as they diminish individual liberties. The state is as dependent upon wars as orthodontists are on overbites, or lawyers are on disputes.

Every war is conducted by the state against its own citizenry. If you doubt this, ask yourself these questions, whose liberties have been more greatly curtailed since Sept. 11th, bin Laden’s or yours ( The Patriot Act )? Whose belongings are being searched at airports and other public buildings, whose telephone, computer, credit card, medical, bank, and employment records are being monitored, Al Qaida operatives or yours? Whose taxes will be increased and whose children will be called upon to die in this eternal war, leaders of the Islamic Jihad or yours?

Come on folks, put things into perspective. If you have not already figured out the essential nature of the state, it s time for you to reasses things. Every political system is a racket, run by and for the benefit of the most disreputable people in any society, and employing those methods that, to any decent folk represent the lowest qualities in human behavior. Lying, threatening, coercing, killing, corrupting, deceiving, are such common characteristics in political life that we scarcely comment upon it anymore. Yet if your child grew up exhibiting such traits, you would rightfully regard yourself as a parental failure.

Well whenever people interact, politics is present, therefore being alone is the absence of politics. When people are together, politics comes into existence and is organized in the nation state. My liberties are somewhat infringed on for my security. It is a necessary sacrifice when involved in a polity. I chose to become a citizen. I like the securities that the state has to offer.

Your misunderstanding what I am stating. Politics has more than one meaning. It applies to the profession devoted to governing and to political affairs, as well as the social interaction. I am speaking of the initial, not the latter. It's the same with religion. Religion is an institution to express belief in a divine power. However fanaticism in anything can become a "religion" such as my love for mixed martial arts would be like a religion to me. Therein lies the differences.

What you like or do not like has nothing to do with political systems and the 200,000,000 million people the nation states have killed around the world. What securities does the state offer you anyway? In your everyday life you protect yourself more than the state, by locks, doors, guns, etc. The state only protects itself when people rebell or attack the state. The state has only one interest, to sustain itself over you.

[surferarmo]

I completely understood what you you were saying, I was just bringing up another point. A question you must then ask when you say that purpose of the nation is to sustain itself over me is, WHO IS THE NATION? I am the nation. I am sustaining myself over myself? And, if you dont believe that you are part of the nation, if you believe that the nation and the individual are two seperate and different enitities then you must ask, what is the purpose of the individual? Both answers lead back to security. The individual strives to find others to create a secure enviornment to pursue his or her interests. The nation tries to exclude external individuals so that the nation and the people of that nation may pursue their interests.

Either way it comes to security and pursuance of interests.

[Aphrodit3]

I've pulled my head out of the clouds and realized that it's practically impossible to not only establish a perfect government but to gain total freedom. Democracy gives us the illusion of freedom but it's flawed, just like any other political system. It will always be flawed despite our best efforts because human nature is fundamentally flawed. The best way to maintain some sort of balance and civility is to impose power upon us (as pathetic as that sounds). But think about what would happen if they removed the leash... We elect our government. Essentially, it reflects us. The beauty is, if we don't like it, we have the power to change it. It just gets tricky because we have to make informed choices...

Anyway, I thought I'd put in my 2 cents and I'll shut up now :?

[hyeclass]

so any republicans here??

[surferarmo]

so any republicans here??

Yes. 100% GOP right here.