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I am starting to like you guys...

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  • #41
    OK Baron. Here we go. I am going to write this essay style so as to organize the arguements into a well written flow of ideas.

    The Armenian genocide has had obvious implications on our people. It weakened our boarders, our land was conquered, our people dispersed. This left Armenians desperate, and thus created an opportun time for communism to rear its ugly conformist head and aim it straight for Armenia. Since Armenia's independence in 1990, Armenia has since been stuck in the rut of third world disparity.

    Communism, in theory, is ideally a utopic state. In theory, people of the society work for the state and the state takes care of them, treating everyone equally. There is a beauracratic department that serves one purpose; to work for the equal distribution of goods among the people. However, in practice, communism has served to be no more than the systematic killing machine, innovation inhibitor, and cultural decimator of the 20th century.

    Armenians survived a genocide where they were forced to march through the desert at gun point, only to be forced to adhere to the will of the Communist Soviet Union. When the Turks left a scrap of land for Armenians to call home, the Soviet Union came in to take what was left. Under such a regime, Armenians like most Soviets, were struck by plague of hunger. Communism had illogically left the farming industry to monopoly. One plague of bad weather, insects, or bad soil would wipe out an entire crop, an entire food supply, and an entire family. Because of communism and its equal distribution laws, families of twelve would receive the same amount of food as a family of three. This illustration makes quite clear the danger of Communism and its effects on Armenians. As a result, survival became a necessary part time job for all. People resorted to stealing, gangs, and murder so that they might be able to receive more than what was given to them. Instead of becoming individuals working to earn a living, they were forced to resort to thievery.

    Many Armenians were made inefficient. People, under a communist regime are told what trades they are to learn from an early age without any say in what their career interest might be. For example, a young man who possess great skills as a carpenter is forced to be a landscaper. This is inefficient. His superb skills at carpentry will never be used to its fullest potential.

    Religion was, and is an important part of Armenian culture. Armenians under communism were not allowed to fully take part in their religious ceremonies. Churches were burnt down, priests were killed, and faith was discouraged. Seminaries were limited to a minimal amount of students. Had one openly proclaimed their faith, death would be iminent.

    Even today effects of the Soviet Communist regime are apparent. In Armenia, many half constructed projects are left scattered throughout the land. Many people died bitter deaths, making Armenians that once held strongly to their faith, detest it. People have become accustomed to a life style of theivery, which is apparent in Armenia, and in Glendale CA, where Armenians would kill another for no reason of survival, but as instinct of their previous surroundings.

    Capatilism would have proven better for our people. In the case of hunger, farms, like in USA would have been privately owned. The crops would have been more diverse, providing a variety of food items. Variety also makes it so that one element that would prove disastorous for farming only wipe out one crop. FOr instance, the USSR primarily grew wheat. Lets imagine that wheat can not handle cold weather very well. A cold wind blows rendering all the wheat crops spoiled, the nation will go hungry. Grapes have no effect, positive or negative, in cold weather. If Armenians had been under a capatalist regime with privately owned farms and diverse crops, our people would not have fallen victim to such simple remedied, and preventive problems.

    Armenians also could have had more options in the consumer industry. Different colors, different styles, different quality and different prices. This not only goes for clothes, furniture, and other decorative items, but for food as well.

    People, under capatilism, could have explored their own individual talents and developed them to their fullest potential. This in turn would allow the individual to sufficiently assist society with their talents and innovation. The boy mentioned earlier who possess the skills necessary for carpentry could easily become a caerpenter, and a very good one at that.

    Faith could have flourished more easily, and more freely. The deaths of thousands would not have happened, had Armenians been free from religious persecution under the USSR.

    Communism has proven fatal for the Armenian people. Independence was sought and earned, and well celebrated for. Capatilism would have been better, and is, and has been proving better fot the Armenian people. The capatilist philosphy will continue to prove its worth by allowing an enviornment where the individual minds of our people will be appreciated. The participatory nature of capatilism will bring our people to be more effective as a nation, and as a nation among nations.


    Have fun Baron. I seriously, cant wait for your reply. THis was quickly written, so I apologize for any errors.

    Comment


    • #42
      Hmmmm, very very interesting. We have differing (if not opposite) views on the subject, and though I would love to reply right now, I have a bus to catch in 5 minutes. How idiotic is it to have one course from 3:30 to 5 and nothing else the whole day?

      Oh well, at least it'll give you some time to think of counter-counter arguments. hehe

      tsuh!

      Comment


      • #43
        OK, i cannot believe this. I had written like a 5 page reply, and once i clicked submit, my sign in had apparently timed out. Now I am pissed. I'm gonna go take a shower, and maybe post again.




        AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGGHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!! !

        Comment


        • #44
          Ok, I am now a bit more relaxed, I got my comfy shorts on, and am playing a 30 minute track of Djivan Gasparyan. Ah, posting heaven. lol

          here we go.

          Armenians survived a genocide where they were forced to march through the desert at gun point, only to be forced to adhere to the will of the Communist Soviet Union. When the Turks left a scrap of land for Armenians to call home, the Soviet Union came in to take what was left. Under such a regime, Armenians like most Soviets, were struck by plague of hunger. Communism had illogically left the farming industry to monopoly. One plague of bad weather, insects, or bad soil would wipe out an entire crop, an entire food supply, and an entire family. Because of communism and its equal distribution laws, families of twelve would receive the same amount of food as a family of three. This illustration makes quite clear the danger of Communism and its effects on Armenians. As a result, survival became a necessary part time job for all. People resorted to stealing, gangs, and murder so that they might be able to receive more than what was given to them. Instead of becoming individuals working to earn a living, they were forced to resort to thievery.
          Every armenian gets the impression that communism stole us our independance right when we had our own country and things were getting better. This can't be more wrong. Armenia's woes were certainly not over when we declared independance. In fact, the Tashnag government, at that point and time, did not even want independance. It wanted to create a republic of Transcaucasian states, with Georgia and Azerbaidjan. Georgia declared its independance, same with the Azeris, which left Armenia no choice but to declare its own. Our 3 years of independance were marred by great human losses to famine and epidemics. Also, while our people were able to hold back the Turks and even advance during the legendary war of Sartarabad, its effects where cancelled out because the Tashnag government was unaware of what was happening in the battlefields, and was quick to sign a treay with Turkey, giving even more territory away (this is what prompted General Antranig to quit the ARF). Therefore, morale in the army was also at a low, and our men wouldn't be able to resist to the Turks much longer. Of course, bolshevik Russia also had its eyes on Transcaucasia. We were pretty much sandwiched between these two powers. Azerbaidjan was safer as it had Tukey's support, while Georgia had Germany's. Armenia was still waiting for our good American friends as we lost more territory with each passing day. It was at this point where an INTERNAL REVOLUTION led by ARMENIANS took place, and the Red Army came in to help the Armenian bolsheviks take power, and stop the Tashnag resistance.

          Many Armenians were made inefficient. People, under a communist regime are told what trades they are to learn from an early age without any say in what their career interest might be. For example, a young man who possess great skills as a carpenter is forced to be a landscaper. This is inefficient. His superb skills at carpentry will never be used to its fullest potential. ]
          Well, here's the story of little Djivanik. Djivanik was a small 8 year old boy who one days heard a concert, and was enchanted by the sound of the Duduk, our national instrument. Djivanik was given a duduk by a family member, and found out that he was quite talented. Djivanik grew up to be Djivan Gasparyan, world-reknown duduk player, decorated by Stalin himself, who played in such movies as Gladiator, and who is scheduled to hold a concert in Turkey this year. Djivanik is not a landscaper. While your example is taken out of the blue, this is one based on a real person. I also think you are mistaken when you say that they could not choose their branch, as my dad had to apply to go to Yerevan Polytechnic, beating out many students from Armenia. Wouldn't they just be given a spot if that's what they HAD to be?


          Capatilism would have proven better for our people. In the case of hunger, farms, like in USA would have been privately owned. The crops would have been more diverse, providing a variety of food items. Variety also makes it so that one element that would prove disastorous for farming only wipe out one crop. FOr instance, the USSR primarily grew wheat. Lets imagine that wheat can not handle cold weather very well. A cold wind blows rendering all the wheat crops spoiled, the nation will go hungry. Grapes have no effect, positive or negative, in cold weather. If Armenians had been under a capatalist regime with privately owned farms and diverse crops, our people would not have fallen victim to such simple remedied, and preventive problems.
          Armenia does not have a lot of fertile lands (around 9%). What it does have was developped though, as armenian fruits and alcohol were praised during the Soviet Era. Winston Churchill was said to only drink Armenian brandy, which prompted Stalin (no, I don't like him) to give him many full barrels during their historic meeting. All this to say, the USSR did not only harvest wheat, and there were other foods. In fact, the lack of fertile lands is what prompted the USSR to industrialize Armenia. Makes sense to me.


          Religion was, and is an important part of Armenian culture. Armenians under communism were not allowed to fully take part in their religious ceremonies. Churches were burnt down, priests were killed, and faith was discouraged. Seminaries were limited to a minimal amount of students. Had one openly proclaimed their faith, death would be iminent. ]
          Gross exaggeration. How was Vazken Arachin able to live in Armenia all the time he was Gatoghigos. How was Sourp Sarkis Church built in the 1960s? If churches were burnt down, why is there a church on every street corner in Armenia?

          Even today effects of the Soviet Communist regime are apparent. In Armenia, many half constructed projects are left scattered throughout the land. Many people died bitter deaths, making Armenians that once held strongly to their faith, detest it. People have become accustomed to a life style of theivery, which is apparent in Armenia, and in Glendale CA, where Armenians would kill another for no reason of survival, but as instinct of their previous surroundings.
          95% of Armenians in Armenia try to lead honest lives. If there is corrution and thievery, it is caused by the fact that Armenia was pushed to make the Communism-to-Capitalism transition so fast that public institutions were left without care, letting anyone take charge and getting rich. For instance, a few thousand Lada-s were arriving to Yerevan right during the collapse of the Soviet Union. The institution who was supposed to receive the cars in order to distribute them was, of course, state run. Since the State no longer existed, the man in charge of the institution made fortunes, as the cars arrived to him.

          People, under capatilism, could have explored their own individual talents and developed them to their fullest potential. This in turn would allow the individual to sufficiently assist society with their talents and innovation. The boy mentioned earlier who possess the skills necessary for carpentry could easily become a caerpenter, and a very good one at that.
          This is probably what pisses me off the most in all your post. Armenian culture was reborn during the USSR and there is no denying that. Talent and innovation would've developed only under capitalism? The USSR was first in putting a man in space, that's quite an innovation right there.
          Here is a small list of Armenian who were, to say the least, quite talented: Victor Hambartsoomian, Aram Khachaturian, Avedik Isahagian, Hovannes Shiraz, Ardem Migoyan, Martiros Saryan, Minas Avetisian, Alexander Tamanian, Djivan Gasparyan, Arno Babadjanian, Khachatur Avetisian, Hovannes Badalian, Tigran Petrosyan, Alexander Spendiarian, Hovhannes Chekijian, Marshal Baghramyan, Tatoul Altounian, Rouben Matevosian, Vartuhi Khachatryan, Hrant Matevosian and the list goes on and on.

          The Opera Theater, the many museums and universities, the national library which has a collection at least 5 times bigger than the one in Athens, the fact that there is a monument, a statue or a water fountain at every five steps, the National Song and Dance Ensemble, the fact that Armenia is the world's third strongest nation in Chess, the Observatory, the fact that we have a very educated manpower, which can attract investors, the fact that Armenian Gymnastics, headed by such legends as Hrant Shahinian, were one of the strongest in the world, (this is to be revived), the fact that our soccer was competent at the international level (Ararat 70-73) (also to be revived, though it's slooooowly on its way), all this, we owe to the Soviet Union. The USSR allowed Armenia to bring its culture back out from the ashes, and to develop it, and there is no denying that.

          Had the dismantlement of the Soviet Union been more peaceful, and not rushed as it was, Armenia would be a lot more ready to face the situation it's facing today.

          Comment


          • #45
            Re: I am starting to like you guys...

            Originally posted by surferarmo
            Religion was used to keep us unified. Since religion is dying, we now use the genocide to unify our people. By all means, it should be recognized, but that is what we use to "glue" our people.

            However, for some reason, we are not using that unifying element, the genocide, correctly. As Armenians are split on the issue. Diasporans are split and are fighting over interests. It seems the only cause of our people is the genocide, or for the rungovars, it is nothing but white washing our church without much emphasis on the genocide. The genocide cant keep us glued alone, we need something else, maybe the Church, maybe another crisis?
            you are pathetic...
            do you realize that you wouldn't be where you are right now if not for the genocide??
            "we're USING the genocide"????glue??
            what the hell is wrong with you?
            are you suggesting you would use a close family member's murder case, to "glue" your family together?
            they're both crimes that should be paid for damit!
            I so wish you were here right now, so that I could kick you on the balls so you wouldn't be able to contribute more armenians like you to this world!! oh I'm so serious...

            Comment


            • #46
              LOLOL. You are lame. Yes, we are using at as our glue. It is sooooo true. For you not to see that is lame. Come and kick me in my balls. I dare you. I would probably like that actually.

              Anyway, yes. THe fact is most Armenians of todays generations are only proud to be Armenian because we suffered a genocide in 1915. So you know that language? Big Deal. That is saving our culture as much as the New Deal saved this nation. Its all full of xxxx, just like you. Armenians are only participating in politics for that ONE INTEREST. Do you know anything else about your culture? I didnt until I attended St. Nersses in NY. Now I am truly proud of being Armenian.

              If it wasnt for the genocide, I would be raising sheep in the fields with my father, and xxxx YOU. My great grandparents would have sufffered the way they did. Again, you are telling me I should be thankful for the genocide because I am in the lands of America. I dont care where I am, as long as my family and my culture are with me.

              Your Organization has made us an interest group, centered around nothing but the genocide. It is a bunch of xxxxed up kids acting like they care on April 24 so they can get a day off from school.

              The only reason most Armenians in glendale are Democrat, are because they are quick to "ACT" loyal to the INTERESTS of specific cultures. More Democrats endorse the ANC legislation, that is why most new people, only in LA mind you are becoming Democrat. Democrats are a party of interst groups, not of principle or platform. Shame on YOU and AYF for making us an interest group. It is an important issue, but if that is all you have to live for, then you might as well do a demonstration that marches off the Grand Canyon, because you are doing nothing but making our people low life, interest minded people, only out to exploit their interests and take everything they can...reminds me of another group of people, you might know them, they are the losers that wont let our xxxx pass!

              And if you dont like politics...THEN LEAVE AYF! Where is your brain? Maybe I should have asked if you had one first.

              Comment


              • #47
                I will destroy that last post. I worked all weekend at the CRP convention, and I am spending my last few days with my family. I shall respond on my arrival to school.

                Comment


                • #48
                  "I should like to see any power of the world destroy this race, this small tribe of unimportant people, whose wars have all been fought and lost, whose structures have crumbled, literature is unread, music is unheard, and prayers are no more answered. Go ahead, destroy Armenia. See if you can do it. Send them into the desert without bread or water. Burn their homes and churches. Then see if they will not laugh, sing and pray again. For when two of them meet anywhere in the world, see if they will not create a New Armenia" _William Saroyan

                  and that is why I'm a proud Armenian.
                  and I'm proud of my parents and teachers and mentors for raising me that way. and I'm proud of God for giving me the ability to pass this pride to the coming generation. Nothing can stop my blood from flowing that way. and I will die happy when I see that pride passed down.

                  Comment


                  • #49
                    Surfer jan, not knowing the language and not passing it on is one of the biggest steps in losing our culture. Say what you want, an armenian that speaks armenian, in 99% of the cases, has a bigger clue about Armenia than a non-speaker.

                    Comment


                    • #50
                      SURFER ARMO U SHOULD LIVE IN HOLLYWOOD FOR LETS SAY 3 MONTHS UR BRAIN WILL CHANGE IN DEFFERENT WAYS U WILL BECOME A DEFENSIVE DRIVER CUZ EVERYONE IN HOLLYWOOD WANTS TO HIT SOMEBODY SECOND U WONT GIVE A xxxx ABOUT POLOTICS CUZ NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS U WILL RELIZE U GONNA BE THE SAME WHITE ARMENIAN GUY BUT THE MOST IMPORTANT THING U WILL LEARN TO SPEAK ARMENIAN FASTER THAN HERE

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