I am starting to like you guys...

[surferarmo]

On a more serious note. Your main point in discrediting religion is that religion "does not matter anymore." To me and others who believe, it does matter. Do you really think all these people were going to church every sunday back in the day? I dont think so. I go quite often actually. In fact, religion is totally an issue in the world today. You can say whatever you want about Osama and his reasons for bombing, but he did explicitly use religion as one of his motives for attacking.

Now for the record, I believe in God, but I will argue this intellectually with you rather than backing this up with "faith" and what not. Now you might argue that religion does not matter, and that it is not real. You might say that people depend on religion for purpose and comfort, but people do that with all sorts of things. You use philosophy, Anon claims to use reason. I know both go hand and hand. Some use hobbies to give them purpose, others find talents. Who is to say that those passions are any more real. You have made it clear that you have no interest in my passion at all, which is obviously politics. Well, I really dont care about what you do either, it means nothing to me, as passion is an intangible and extremely relative agenda in our lives. For instance, you have a passion for AYF. I have been to an AYF thing, and it seems like a propoganda sort of brainwashing thing to me. I have respect as it keeps us close together, but it also makes us a special interest group in the eyes of the American Government. AYF is sort of self defeating in that sense, and if you want me to explain that later I will. But anyway, the point is, you look to certain things for purpose and comfort as do those who look to religion, as do I whom looks to politics, religion, nationalism for the mother land, and America and many other things.

You might say "the nation state, like religion, is an idea concocted by man to control the masses." Well, lets put it this way. Nationalism never kept a country, or an ethnic group together. Before the genocide, it wasnt AYF that kept us together, it was Christianity. Also, what nation state has existed with consistency for 2000 years? None. I can answer that one.

oh wow.. I disagree with so many of the things in that paragraph I don't even know where to start!
first of all, since when has going to church been a standard for measuring religiousness... ????you could be LIVING in church, for all I know, and you could still be in denial of the fact that Jesus died for us...
back in the day people didn't go to church on Sundays... they (specially women) went to church EVERYDAY... cuz they didn't have the "oh lemme wear my mini skirt and glittery pink top and get my hair and make up and nails done and go to church this Sunday right when it's crowded so that some rich family notices me and I get married" mentality.
pure believers can't even STAND the scenes at churches nowadays... they prefer praying at home... and guess what. They're a saaad minority.

now lets talk about your pathetic way of using hobbies and passions to prove me wrong...
comparing your going to church to my supporting AYF... ???how LAME is that?
you're talking about AYF's not being able to "keep armenia together before the genocide"???... lol... you obviously my friend, have no idea what AYF or ANY other armenian organization is about...
oh wait... you've been to an ayf THING...
thing???
whats a thing?
some lame dance they were trying to raise money from(attracting armo surferboys and proud xxxxs by printing some famous DJ's name on the flyer) so that their Karabagh rennovation projects become reality???

"a special interest group in the eyes of the US government"
all I can say is that if you're Armenian and you think this way... God help us with our cause!
anyway .. I got more to say... but i'm falling asleep!
sorry about the long read.. goodnight 8)

I am among that majority who does dislike the social scene at church. It disgusts me. It is the one day, actually only 1.5 hours of your time a week to God, and we cant just chill and devote it to Him.

Your point about AYF is ridiculous. I am part of two Armo orgs, and I like them, but AYF is not my thing. I went to a teach in. It was a brain washing ceremony. Half of those kids dont know why they hate the Turks. I want the genocide recognized as much as you do. But it is not the only thing on my mind. THe church is what kept our people together for 2000 years, NOT AYF. AYF has transformed into an organization dedicated to NOTHING but recognizing the genocide. You can say all you want about its work, and what it does, but all the people I have talked to, including leaders in it are for nothing but that one cause. Therefore it has made us an INTERST GROUP. I truly feel sad when our people congregate for one purpose, for one interst. One thing you guys do which is a big mistake is you separate our people. You told me I wasnt "Armenian enough" in some other thread. So basically you excluded me from the cause. I have an armo friend who has blonde hair and spoke a different dialect of Armenian. He wanted to join your organization but he took a lot of xxxx. You do nothing but separate people who you believe are not Armenian enough to be part of "our" cause. Your only cause is to recognize the genocide, which makes us an interst group. What if our interst is met? If the genocide was recognized today, AYF would die in 20 years. I gauruntee it.

You bash America for doing the same thing. Why cant you people see you are as "corrupt" as the people you are judging? How selfish. Just because it is for your cause does not make it right. Let me explain what I am saying by giving you an example. You telling me "I am not Armenian because I dont want to join AYF" is exactly what some people say about the war on Iraq. "If you dont support the war on terrorism, you are anti-American." I disagree with both statements. I dont have to be in AYF to want justice for my people. It is a crime against humanity, and should be recongized. I dont need to be part of the exlusive AYF to want that for my people.

[Anonymouse]

Surfer that was a very lucid post.

To the rest, he does have a valid point

Rebuttal raised rebuttle delivered.

Sweet and calculated play.

...and GOAL!

[Anonymouse]

Re: I am starting to like you guys...

I think it's time I gave a fair response to this thread.

I love the tax cut. How bout you? We need this people. Poor people try to get jobs every day. Some of them do get jobs. When they get their check, half of it is taken away from them in the form of taxes. Whether it be initial taxes taken off our checks, or sales tax, they are being stripped of their meager wealth to purchase necessary means which keep them alive. Tax cut is necessary and so is a Republican Governor.

Now surfer, if you weren't blinded by your party's allegiance you would see that a tax cut is, in the long run, essentially pointless, as the root of the system is still in place, that being the tax itself, and the IRS. Tax cut or tax raise, you are still paying this odious thing when clearly the income tax, along with the IRS, along with the whole Federal Reserve System, came in power by acts of subterfuge and have enslaved not only this country, but the world with their financial system, that of fiat money, and usury.

Do you really think that that paper you get back from the supposed tax cut is worth anything? It's just money by government decree. As long as the government stays in power, it's worth something, you have faith in it ( to those who only use reason and ignore faith, your faith in governments paper money is evidence of faith ). Not like yore, when you exchanged butter for meat, hypothetically, or for that matter when money was indeed backed by some form of material means. Nowadays, it's a financial slave system designed to suck everyone into its vortex, and suck in it has.

Now you may say that that is a price to pay for a 'country' such as this to provide you with so called 'safety', or 'infrastructure', or for establishing 'legal order committed to resolving disputes between humans by reason and not by violence', or for 'providing goods and services by centrally-directed systems' such as electricity, or gas. Now see what happens when you allow government centralization? Soon you have every aspect of our lives in centralized hands, from the electricity, to the gas, to the water. Then you have the governments electricity priesthood come out and say "we will fix it so it won't happen again". Whatever government glitch occurs, whether its a plane crash, or a shuttle disaster, or a blackout, the technocrats shout "we will fix it so it won't happen again". It's almost as if theres a ritualistic ring to it.

As long as our institutionalized world has been built on the premise of collectivism, by our belief that we can maximize the production of goods and services, and protect ourselves from threats and inconveniences, by centralizing decision making into the hands of expert planners who can accomplish ends we could not bring about on our own, we will continue to have these problems because complex systems such as power grids are unpredictable and, therefore, incapable of being planned for and managed. There will always be some unforeseen glitch to upset the best laid plans and backup plans. It is an illusion, born of a faith in collective thinking, that the causes of today’s problems can be "fixed so that they won't happen again". This proves that the state doesn't make things better, it only exists for mass production, because that was what the industrial revolution ushered in, hand in hand with the rise of imperialism, nation states, and a financial system based on monopolization and mass production.

Quick question. What you guys think about issues of religion and Armenia, religion and the US, and Religion and government?

(And just to make this how it was before. Anon, you need to take this seriously and argue with me for 100 posts like old times. Baron needs to jump in and back you, then Pat comes in and backs me. Jahnnam jumps on Anons side cause she doesnt know what else to do. Flames, you make fun of me and everyone else from the sidelines. Speakenglishordie can say something stupid like always. Then my friends, it will turn back to the ways of old...AMEN)

As far as religion and Armenia, I am aware that religion has indeed helped Armenians keep their 'identity' whatever that means, as that is something that changes as time passes. But Armenians now all over the world are further from religion, as is most of the world, since we believe it as 'superstition'. Or, many sects keep popping out like poisonous mushrooms all claiming to have some sort of answer to our problems. In other words to paraphrase what Carl Jung was saying, mankind has exhausted its creativeness, its individualism, and has brushed away with faith or superstition or the metaphysical, but rather has replaced everything with reason, and rationalism, the belief that everything has a logical and reasonable explanation based on evidence. Our society in general, industrialized western society ( and Armenia I am to guess is at least in the Industrial category ), has been as well a victim of this.

Furthermore, as I said, Armenians of then and now are different, and the religion pertaining to Armenians then, and now are different as well and therefore cannot be compared. This is what I mean when we use the present to describe the past, and in doing so create historical innaccuracy. The Armenians that clung to religion throughout our history, maintained their identity, not because it was coincidence that they were Christian, but rather because of the situation. Armenians were a people conquered and invaded and occupied time and time again gradually losing land and losing faith and being a small place in the middle of nowhere, and of course attacked most notably by Muslims. The reason they kept their identity was not beacuse of Christianity, but because they were situated where they were, and circumstance prevailed. Don't forget folks there were lots of bloody wars fought between Armenians because of this religion. In a way it saved Armenians being surrounded by muslim neighbors, and in a way it made them easy targets to get butchered. Perhaps the tension and disaster brought by foreign invaders, made Christianity a comfortable place for Armenians to unite under one force, have faith again and perhaps the Crusades also heightened Armenian faith in the church? Perhaps it was truly a call from God for Armenians to be Christian, to save them from the surrounding muslim world? Perhaps Christianity wasn't as strong among Armenians at first, but was reinforced ultimately because of the rise of Turks and invasions into their lands, as you must remember this is ultimately a call for survival and they are merely using organized religion, as a means to that end. It was no way part of their culture, but only later came to be a part of it. Now that Armenia exists on the global platform, tensions aren't what they used to be for Armenians from the muslim world. Given a tension exists, it is not in anway related to how the world was laid out say 800 years ago regarding religion of course. Armenians today for the most part have lost that religious fervor and now have been more 'secularized' if I may. Sure we may go to church and treat it like a chore, but some still go fervently and support all the religious events and such but for the most part the only time we find ourselves at church are during weddings or baptisms or funerals, speaking purely from what I see in Los Angeles Armenians. Clearly Armenians have lost the once vibrant devotion to the organized religion, that is so because the threat of destruction for Armenians is more or less over from the muslim world. Armenians have lost faith not in organized religion, but their ability mostly to unite like they used to. Whereas enemies and genocide throughout our history has prompted us to unite, under organized religion, Armenians have now lost the threat of those enemies and believe that nothing else exists, in a sort of cultural burn out. I know many will yell "Oh there are plenty of devoted Armenians blah blah blah, who do this and do that". I know there are, and I know some of them too. That means nothing in the grand scheme of things. Now Armenians have their own nation state, and no one wants to return it but instead support it from abroad like its some private museum that lives off donations. That is not how our ancestors envishioned this to be. Sadly it is. Perhaps it's really not a question of organized Christianity as many of you say, but perhaps it is a deeper truth, faith in something that Armenians lack now?

[surferarmo]

Re: I am starting to like you guys...

I think it's time I gave a fair response to this thread.

I love the tax cut. How bout you? We need this people. Poor people try to get jobs every day. Some of them do get jobs. When they get their check, half of it is taken away from them in the form of taxes. Whether it be initial taxes taken off our checks, or sales tax, they are being stripped of their meager wealth to purchase necessary means which keep them alive. Tax cut is necessary and so is a Republican Governor.

Now surfer, if you weren't blinded by your party's allegiance you would see that a tax cut is, in the long run, essentially pointless, as the root of the system is still in place, that being the tax itself, and the IRS. Tax cut or tax raise, you are still paying this odious thing when clearly the income tax, along with the IRS, along with the whole Federal Reserve System, came in power by acts of subterfuge and have enslaved not only this country, but the world with their financial system, that of fiat money, and usury.

Do you really think that that paper you get back from the supposed tax cut is worth anything? It's just money by government decree. As long as the government stays in power, it's worth something, you have faith in it ( to those who only use reason and ignore faith, your faith in governments paper money is evidence of faith ). Not like yore, when you exchanged butter for meat, hypothetically, or for that matter when money was indeed backed by some form of material means. Nowadays, it's a financial slave system designed to suck everyone into its vortex, and suck in it has.

Now you may say that that is a price to pay for a 'country' such as this to provide you with so called 'safety', or 'infrastructure', or for establishing 'legal order committed to resolving disputes between humans by reason and not by violence', or for 'providing goods and services by centrally-directed systems' such as electricity, or gas. Now see what happens when you allow government centralization? Soon you have every aspect of our lives in centralized hands, from the electricity, to the gas, to the water. Then you have the governments electricity priesthood come out and say "we will fix it so it won't happen again". Whatever government glitch occurs, whether its a plane crash, or a shuttle disaster, or a blackout, the technocrats shout "we will fix it so it won't happen again". It's almost as if theres a ritualistic ring to it.

As long as our institutionalized world has been built on the premise of collectivism, by our belief that we can maximize the production of goods and services, and protect ourselves from threats and inconveniences, by centralizing decision making into the hands of expert planners who can accomplish ends we could not bring about on our own, we will continue to have these problems because complex systems such as power grids are unpredictable and, therefore, incapable of being planned for and managed. There will always be some unforeseen glitch to upset the best laid plans and backup plans. It is an illusion, born of a faith in collective thinking, that the causes of today’s problems can be "fixed so that they won't happen again". This proves that the state doesn't make things better, it only exists for mass production, because that was what the industrial revolution ushered in, hand in hand with the rise of imperialism, nation states, and a financial system based on monopolization and mass production.

[quote]


The tax cuts do help people. I am not only talking about income tax, medicare, and social securtiy tax taken from peoples checks, I am also talking of sales tax, sin tax, car tax, and whatever other weird tarriff might exist in this country. You can say whatever you want about how our currency is made and distributed and that it has no value because it is backed by nothing but our faith; the fact is, whether faith, or a tangible item makes my dollar worth something, it is worth something. When you have all these taxes you lower the purchasing power of everyone. Tax raises mainly effect people making a low income.

People without adequate amounts of money, have to pay the same taxes as I do, therefore, creating difficulty for that person to breech the barriers of the status quo. The result of high taxes and lower purchasing power is a higher populous of people depending on centralized social and governmental programs. The governement creates this dependency with higher taxes, dependency leads to control. The government can then control these people. The result of more people participating in social welfare programs is creating a two class system, making it harder for anyone to mobilize in the class system. Basically, this leads to a two class system: one of the poor and dependent, and one of the rich who is forced to give to the government to provide for society. This is exactly how it was in the manor days when nobles, kings and queens ruled the land. Why in Gods name, would anyone want to regress to the old ways.

Anon, now that I have illustrated the importance of a tax cut (I dont particularily mean the tax cut by Pres. Bush, but I mean lower taxes in general) it is clear that you contradict yourself when you oppose lower taxes and a decentralized govnerment. The such cannot exist.

As far as religion and Armenia, I am aware that religion has indeed helped Armenians keep their 'identity' whatever that means, as that is something that changes as time passes. But Armenians now all over the world are further from religion, as is most of the world, since we believe it as 'superstition'. Or, many sects keep popping out like poisonous mushrooms all claiming to have some sort of answer to our problems. In other words to paraphrase what Carl Jung was saying, mankind has exhausted its creativeness, its individualism, and has brushed away with faith or superstition or the metaphysical, but rather has replaced everything with reason, and rationalism, the belief that everything has a logical and reasonable explanation based on evidence. Our society in general, industrialized western society ( and Armenia I am to guess is at least in the Industrial category ), has been as well a victim of this.

Furthermore, as I said, Armenians of then and now are different, and the religion pertaining to Armenians then, and now are different as well and therefore cannot be compared. This is what I mean when we use the present to describe the past, and in doing so create historical innaccuracy. The Armenians that clung to religion throughout our history, maintained their identity, not because it was coincidence that they were Christian, but rather because of the situation. Armenians were a people conquered and invaded and occupied time and time again gradually losing land and losing faith and being a small place in the middle of nowhere, and of course attacked most notably by Muslims. The reason they kept their identity was not beacuse of Christianity, but because they were situated where they were, and circumstance prevailed. Don't forget folks there were lots of bloody wars fought between Armenians because of this religion. In a way it saved Armenians being surrounded by muslim neighbors, and in a way it made them easy targets to get butchered. Perhaps the tension and disaster brought by foreign invaders, made Christianity a comfortable place for Armenians to unite under one force, have faith again and perhaps the Crusades also heightened Armenian faith in the church? Perhaps it was truly a call from God for Armenians to be Christian, to save them from the surrounding muslim world? Perhaps Christianity wasn't as strong among Armenians at first, but was reinforced ultimately because of the rise of Turks and invasions into their lands, as you must remember this is ultimately a call for survival and they are merely using organized religion, as a means to that end. It was no way part of their culture, but only later came to be a part of it. Now that Armenia exists on the global platform, tensions aren't what they used to be for Armenians from the muslim world. Given a tension exists, it is not in anway related to how the world was laid out say 800 years ago regarding religion of course. Armenians today for the most part have lost that religious fervor and now have been more 'secularized' if I may. Sure we may go to church and treat it like a chore, but some still go fervently and support all the religious events and such but for the most part the only time we find ourselves at church are during weddings or baptisms or funerals, speaking purely from what I see in Los Angeles Armenians. Clearly Armenians have lost the once vibrant devotion to the organized religion, that is so because the threat of destruction for Armenians is more or less over from the muslim world. Armenians have lost faith not in organized religion, but their ability mostly to unite like they used to. Whereas enemies and genocide throughout our history has prompted us to unite, under organized religion, Armenians have now lost the threat of those enemies and believe that nothing else exists, in a sort of cultural burn out. I know many will yell "Oh there are plenty of devoted Armenians blah blah blah, who do this and do that". I know there are, and I know some of them too. That means nothing in the grand scheme of things. Now Armenians have their own nation state, and no one wants to return it but instead support it from abroad like its some private museum that lives off donations. That is not how our ancestors envishioned this to be. Sadly it is. Perhaps it's really not a question of organized Christianity as many of you say, but perhaps it is a deeper truth, faith in something that Armenians lack now?

I believe this is true. Armenians have traditionally stuck to religion during times of desperation. Our history has been filled with it. Now with more Armenians living in luxury, our religion is no longer needed so to speak. Religion was used to keep us unified. Since religion is dying, we now use the genocide to unify our people. By all means, it should be recognized, but that is what we use to "glue" our people.

However, for some reason, we are not using that unifying element, the genocide, correctly. As Armenians are split on the issue. Diasporans are split and are fighting over interests. It seems the only cause of our people is the genocide, or for the rungovars, it is nothing but white washing our church without much emphasis on the genocide. The genocide cant keep us glued alone, we need something else, maybe the Church, maybe another crisis?

(Patlajan, I know that if you read this, you will wonder what I am talking about. After being in the east coast, I really like AYF and ACYO. But here in Cali, the organizations are totally different. They are unorganized, and seperate. IN the east coast, they work together on issues. If you are "whitewashed" then you are in ACYO, if you are "thugged out and FOB" then you are in AYF. Too bad we cant function the same way the eastern region does.)

[surferarmo]

Re: I am starting to like you guys...

I think it's time I gave a fair response to this thread.

I love the tax cut. How bout you? We need this people. Poor people try to get jobs every day. Some of them do get jobs. When they get their check, half of it is taken away from them in the form of taxes. Whether it be initial taxes taken off our checks, or sales tax, they are being stripped of their meager wealth to purchase necessary means which keep them alive. Tax cut is necessary and so is a Republican Governor.

Now surfer, if you weren't blinded by your party's allegiance you would see that a tax cut is, in the long run, essentially pointless, as the root of the system is still in place, that being the tax itself, and the IRS. Tax cut or tax raise, you are still paying this odious thing when clearly the income tax, along with the IRS, along with the whole Federal Reserve System, came in power by acts of subterfuge and have enslaved not only this country, but the world with their financial system, that of fiat money, and usury.

Do you really think that that paper you get back from the supposed tax cut is worth anything? It's just money by government decree. As long as the government stays in power, it's worth something, you have faith in it ( to those who only use reason and ignore faith, your faith in governments paper money is evidence of faith ). Not like yore, when you exchanged butter for meat, hypothetically, or for that matter when money was indeed backed by some form of material means. Nowadays, it's a financial slave system designed to suck everyone into its vortex, and suck in it has.

Now you may say that that is a price to pay for a 'country' such as this to provide you with so called 'safety', or 'infrastructure', or for establishing 'legal order committed to resolving disputes between humans by reason and not by violence', or for 'providing goods and services by centrally-directed systems' such as electricity, or gas. Now see what happens when you allow government centralization? Soon you have every aspect of our lives in centralized hands, from the electricity, to the gas, to the water. Then you have the governments electricity priesthood come out and say "we will fix it so it won't happen again". Whatever government glitch occurs, whether its a plane crash, or a shuttle disaster, or a blackout, the technocrats shout "we will fix it so it won't happen again". It's almost as if theres a ritualistic ring to it.

As long as our institutionalized world has been built on the premise of collectivism, by our belief that we can maximize the production of goods and services, and protect ourselves from threats and inconveniences, by centralizing decision making into the hands of expert planners who can accomplish ends we could not bring about on our own, we will continue to have these problems because complex systems such as power grids are unpredictable and, therefore, incapable of being planned for and managed. There will always be some unforeseen glitch to upset the best laid plans and backup plans. It is an illusion, born of a faith in collective thinking, that the causes of today’s problems can be "fixed so that they won't happen again". This proves that the state doesn't make things better, it only exists for mass production, because that was what the industrial revolution ushered in, hand in hand with the rise of imperialism, nation states, and a financial system based on monopolization and mass production.

[quote]


The tax cuts do help people. I am not only talking about income tax, medicare, and social securtiy tax taken from peoples checks, I am also talking of sales tax, sin tax, car tax, and whatever other weird tarriff might exist in this country. You can say whatever you want about how our currency is made and distributed and that it has no value because it is backed by nothing but our faith; the fact is, whether faith, or a tangible item makes my dollar worth something, it is worth something. When you have all these taxes you lower the purchasing power of everyone. Tax raises mainly effect people making a low income.

People without adequate amounts of money, have to pay the same taxes as I do, therefore, creating difficulty for that person to breech the barriers of the status quo. The result of high taxes and lower purchasing power is a higher populous of people depending on centralized social and governmental programs. The governement creates this dependency with higher taxes, dependency leads to control. The government can then control these people. The result of more people participating in social welfare programs is creating a two class system, making it harder for anyone to mobilize in the class system. Basically, this leads to a two class system: one of the poor and dependent, and one of the rich who is forced to give to the government to provide for society. This is exactly how it was in the manor days when nobles, kings and queens ruled the land. Why in Gods name, would anyone want to regress to the old ways.

Anon, now that I have illustrated the importance of a tax cut (I dont particularily mean the tax cut by Pres. Bush, but I mean lower taxes in general) it is clear that you contradict yourself when you oppose lower taxes and a decentralized govnerment. The such cannot exist.

As far as religion and Armenia, I am aware that religion has indeed helped Armenians keep their 'identity' whatever that means, as that is something that changes as time passes. But Armenians now all over the world are further from religion, as is most of the world, since we believe it as 'superstition'. Or, many sects keep popping out like poisonous mushrooms all claiming to have some sort of answer to our problems. In other words to paraphrase what Carl Jung was saying, mankind has exhausted its creativeness, its individualism, and has brushed away with faith or superstition or the metaphysical, but rather has replaced everything with reason, and rationalism, the belief that everything has a logical and reasonable explanation based on evidence. Our society in general, industrialized western society ( and Armenia I am to guess is at least in the Industrial category ), has been as well a victim of this.

Furthermore, as I said, Armenians of then and now are different, and the religion pertaining to Armenians then, and now are different as well and therefore cannot be compared. This is what I mean when we use the present to describe the past, and in doing so create historical innaccuracy. The Armenians that clung to religion throughout our history, maintained their identity, not because it was coincidence that they were Christian, but rather because of the situation. Armenians were a people conquered and invaded and occupied time and time again gradually losing land and losing faith and being a small place in the middle of nowhere, and of course attacked most notably by Muslims. The reason they kept their identity was not beacuse of Christianity, but because they were situated where they were, and circumstance prevailed. Don't forget folks there were lots of bloody wars fought between Armenians because of this religion. In a way it saved Armenians being surrounded by muslim neighbors, and in a way it made them easy targets to get butchered. Perhaps the tension and disaster brought by foreign invaders, made Christianity a comfortable place for Armenians to unite under one force, have faith again and perhaps the Crusades also heightened Armenian faith in the church? Perhaps it was truly a call from God for Armenians to be Christian, to save them from the surrounding muslim world? Perhaps Christianity wasn't as strong among Armenians at first, but was reinforced ultimately because of the rise of Turks and invasions into their lands, as you must remember this is ultimately a call for survival and they are merely using organized religion, as a means to that end. It was no way part of their culture, but only later came to be a part of it. Now that Armenia exists on the global platform, tensions aren't what they used to be for Armenians from the muslim world. Given a tension exists, it is not in anway related to how the world was laid out say 800 years ago regarding religion of course. Armenians today for the most part have lost that religious fervor and now have been more 'secularized' if I may. Sure we may go to church and treat it like a chore, but some still go fervently and support all the religious events and such but for the most part the only time we find ourselves at church are during weddings or baptisms or funerals, speaking purely from what I see in Los Angeles Armenians. Clearly Armenians have lost the once vibrant devotion to the organized religion, that is so because the threat of destruction for Armenians is more or less over from the muslim world. Armenians have lost faith not in organized religion, but their ability mostly to unite like they used to. Whereas enemies and genocide throughout our history has prompted us to unite, under organized religion, Armenians have now lost the threat of those enemies and believe that nothing else exists, in a sort of cultural burn out. I know many will yell "Oh there are plenty of devoted Armenians blah blah blah, who do this and do that". I know there are, and I know some of them too. That means nothing in the grand scheme of things. Now Armenians have their own nation state, and no one wants to return it but instead support it from abroad like its some private museum that lives off donations. That is not how our ancestors envishioned this to be. Sadly it is. Perhaps it's really not a question of organized Christianity as many of you say, but perhaps it is a deeper truth, faith in something that Armenians lack now?

I believe this is true. Armenians have traditionally stuck to religion during times of desperation. Our history has been filled with it. Now with more Armenians living in luxury, our religion is no longer needed so to speak. Religion was used to keep us unified. Since religion is dying, we now use the genocide to unify our people. By all means, it should be recognized, but that is what we use to "glue" our people.

However, for some reason, we are not using that unifying element, the genocide, correctly. As Armenians are split on the issue. Diasporans are split and are fighting over interests. It seems the only cause of our people is the genocide, or for the rungovars, it is nothing but white washing our church without much emphasis on the genocide. The genocide cant keep us glued alone, we need something else, maybe the Church, maybe another crisis?

(Patlajan, I know that if you read this, you will wonder what I am talking about. After being in the east coast, I really like AYF and ACYO. But here in Cali, the organizations are totally different. They are unorganized, and seperate. IN the east coast, they work together on issues. If you are "whitewashed" then you are in ACYO, if you are "thugged out and FOB" then you are in AYF. Too bad we cant function the same way the eastern region does.)

[Anonymouse]

Re: I am starting to like you guys...

The tax cuts do help people. I am not only talking about income tax, medicare, and social securtiy tax taken from peoples checks, I am also talking of sales tax, sin tax, car tax, and whatever other weird tarriff might exist in this country. You can say whatever you want about how our currency is made and distributed and that it has no value because it is backed by nothing but our faith; the fact is, whether faith, or a tangible item makes my dollar worth something, it is worth something. When you have all these taxes you lower the purchasing power of everyone. Tax raises mainly effect people making a low income.

People without adequate amounts of money, have to pay the same taxes as I do, therefore, creating difficulty for that person to breech the barriers of the status quo. The result of high taxes and lower purchasing power is a higher populous of people depending on centralized social and governmental programs. The governement creates this dependency with higher taxes, dependency leads to control. The government can then control these people. The result of more people participating in social welfare programs is creating a two class system, making it harder for anyone to mobilize in the class system. Basically, this leads to a two class system: one of the poor and dependent, and one of the rich who is forced to give to the government to provide for society. This is exactly how it was in the manor days when nobles, kings and queens ruled the land. Why in Gods name, would anyone want to regress to the old ways.

Anon, now that I have illustrated the importance of a tax cut (I dont particularily mean the tax cut by Pres. Bush, but I mean lower taxes in general) it is clear that you contradict yourself when you oppose lower taxes and a decentralized govnerment. The such cannot exist.

First off I haven't contradicted. The idea of "limited government" is a myth. As for my treatise on taxation itself, I am opposed to any tax period. To have some tax means you have some government, which means you have some power that is centralized. All governments seek centralization. Hence this "tax cut" is a myth in two ways because it doesn't really affect the centralization or decentralization of our government ( our government has only grown more powerful throughout, especially since Sept. 11 with the odious Patriot Act ), nor does it make your money have any more worth. And based on the criteria of the Constitution itself is still illegal.

I believe this is true. Armenians have traditionally stuck to religion during times of desperation. Our history has been filled with it. Now with more Armenians living in luxury, our religion is no longer needed so to speak. Religion was used to keep us unified. Since religion is dying, we now use the genocide to unify our people. By all means, it should be recognized, but that is what we use to "glue" our people.

However, for some reason, we are not using that unifying element, the genocide, correctly. As Armenians are split on the issue. Diasporans are split and are fighting over interests. It seems the only cause of our people is the genocide, or for the rungovars, it is nothing but white washing our church without much emphasis on the genocide. The genocide cant keep us glued alone, we need something else, maybe the Church, maybe another crisis?

(Patlajan, I know that if you read this, you will wonder what I am talking about. After being in the east coast, I really like AYF and ACYO. But here in Cali, the organizations are totally different. They are unorganized, and seperate. IN the east coast, they work together on issues. If you are "whitewashed" then you are in ACYO, if you are "thugged out and FOB" then you are in AYF. Too bad we cant function the same way the eastern region does.)

That is precisely my point surfer. Once religion was used and as social evolution took its toll we now moved for the genocide. In a way "it" has become our religion, just like for Jews and Jewish unification ( Zionism ) and the creation of Israel have relied on the Holocaust which is in a way a religion to them, that of the Shoah. So now that Israel exists and the Holocaust is "undeniable fact" with the threat of coercion, where is Israel? Israel is a racist apartheid like Zionist state based on violence and intimidation and pure evil. Will Armenia be like that too? If hypothetically speaking Armenians get the approval of their genocide, what else do they live for now? I believe that such ideas or "religions" if you will helped keep Armenians unified throughout our history. Whereas we have seen alot of cultures come and go and easily disperse, Armenians have been rather strong. Will recognition of the genocide lead us down to a similar path? Who knows?

[surferarmo]

There is not such thing as a limited government. Even if the government is local, it is powerful in that region. I like local government better, because it is better informed of issues that hit closer to home, rather than some men all the way across the country.

I have asked the same question about our people, are we becoming like the jews ourselves? If we were in the same power threshold that the Jews have reached, we too would probably be the same way.

[Anonymouse]

Government or limited government, all the same to me really, as they are all a myth.

As far as our genocide, I believe we have come up to an interesting point and something really worth discussing. What would be the sociological, cultural, and political ramifications of a possible "acceptance" of the genocide. You are right in the sense that we have become no different than Jews in that regard, begging for votes and such and turning into a special interest group lobbying for this. We are taking the same road Jews took, notice. Will Armenianness lose importance? If we are fighting for this now, then what happens after we are done fighting for this? We just wither away? What then becomes the purpose of a culture such as this? You see, Zionism, as many Jews, rather Rabbies, have admitted, has thrived on anti-Semitism. In other words, the anti-Jewish sentiment throughout history in Europe, and then the Nazi regime legitimized and in fact created Jewish unity. Without that threat or sentiment, there would be no Jewish unity, and thus no Zionism. The same goes for Armenian unity and the hardship this people has endured throughout, and now the fight for the Genocide. Alot of myst clouds the future, and perhaps we won't know until we know when the time is right.

[xBaron Dants]

Veeery very interesting post anon.

I had just finished writing quite a lenghty reply but ym adroable pc froze right before I was going to click send.

Anywho, since I have nothing better to do (Flames and Surfer, don't you dare getting me involved in your "you have nothing better to do" argument), I shall retype.

I am personally against the fact that we put so much emphasis on the genocide, and so little on the rest. For instance, consider the average kintergarden english class, and the average armenian kintergarden class.
In english, we were probably reading a Dr Seuss book, laughing and having fun. While in armenian, they were already traumatizing us with stories of murdered authors. Why were we not told the story of Kach Nazar, vor min zargets, chartets hazar? I remember when I was in an "ardasanootyoon" contest a few years back, and the featured author was Hovannes Tumanyan. There was one mandatory poem, and one that each contestant had to choose. I had chosen "Paregentan". I remember hearing all the kids (as well as the adults) laughing as they heard the story. My point is, when you're having fun in a subject, it creates interest in the subject. That is why all those who have heard only about the genocide are now speaking only english and have all but forgotten that they are armenian, while others, like I, who have heard or read Tumanyan, Baronian, yevayln, are now very passionate about Armenia. It is one thing to know that Krikor Zohrab, an author known to you only by name, was brutally killed by the Turks. It is a whole different story when you have read texts such as "Rehan", have laughed at its surprise ending, and then found out that he was brutally killed by the Turks.
My point is, if the older generation had put some effort in giving us a reason to be proud of being armenian, instead of stuffing our heads with endless stories of sadness, not only would the youth be more passionate about the recognition of the Genocide, but it would also have other links to Armenia once we do get recognition.

I find that it is morally and spiritually unhealthy to associate yourself with a nation only because you share the same sufferings. We should have more to think about, we have a 12 year old country trying to stand up on its own feet, and we even want to slow that down by not permitting it to have economic links with its direct neighbour.

Does this have anything to do with anything you guys were saying? I'm not sure, it is just a little rant I had to make.

Now I better click post before my pc freezes again. That was pretty dumb of me, typing that last sentence, what if the pc had frozen while I was writing that? Oh God, I'm still doing it......ok ok, I'm bored...

[Anonymouse]

Baron, I agree with what you said in the first paragraph. The last part I couldn't really associate with.

As far as the genocide, too much of our fellow Armenian adults do cram it down our throats from an early age to have a traumatic effect. All too often its the "we were slaughtered by Turks", but they fail to tie in the cultural aspect or the ramifications it had.

A genocide is a genocide. There are many genocide. Treat them all the same. But a genocide that happens, doesn't just happen, it has ramifications so great that we can only begin to wonder, such as you mentioned, having our culture stolen from us.

However what I raised, and I believe surfer as well, is not so much what you touched upon, the fact that we have to teach our fellow Armenians more about how the genocide affected our culture and what we lost, as opposed to continuous horror stories that make an impression on impressionable minds, but rather how it has been politicized and turned into what surfer raised a special interest case, and I fear heading down the path that others have done before us, would have some very different repercussions. But alas only time will tell.