I am starting to like you guys...

[Anonymouse]

And ofcourse a rather interesting flash animation on the Iraq fiasco.

http://www.ericblumrich.com/antivic.html

[jahannam]

I have never, don't, and will never care about politics!
for politics is not the science of life... chocolate is...
8)
when it comes to religion and Armenia...(which is politics lol but whatever)
we have evolved... it's called CHANGE...
yes...our church has helped us stick together back in the day, when people didn't really have a life(except for some guys in black robes and wierd sharp hats, in patlajan's words, telling them to fear God cuz they'd go to hell otherwise)...but that doesn't mean that Armenia will disappear today if we took its "christianity" away from it...
that was only true in the Vartan Mamigonian era and back...
it's the year 2003
people (and I've heard of one ARMENIAN family) are actually refusing to baptize their kids, claiming "let him grow up and choose his own religion"...for all I know...
lets face it...religion doesn't really matter anymore...
we're just too afraid of the "afterlife" to admit it!

and AGAIN for the records: I'm christian... not an atheist...
and surfer... not a bad thread at all... and I DON'T hold Anon's side all the time... we just agreed on that whole Iraq thing...and you know it... u just want me to hate you again don't you? lol

[surferarmo]

I have never, don't, and will never care about politics!
for politics is not the science of life... chocolate is...
8)
when it comes to religion and Armenia...(which is politics lol but whatever)
we have evolved... it's called CHANGE...
yes...our church has helped us stick together back in the day, when people didn't really have a life(except for some guys in black robes and wierd sharp hats, in patlajan's words, telling them to fear God cuz they'd go to hell otherwise)...but that doesn't mean that Armenia will disappear today if we took its "christianity" away from it...
that was only true in the Vartan Mamigonian era and back...
it's the year 2003
people (and I've heard of one ARMENIAN family) are actually refusing to baptize their kids, claiming "let him grow up and choose his own religion"...for all I know...
lets face it...religion doesn't really matter anymore...
we're just too afraid of the "afterlife" to admit it!

and AGAIN for the records: I'm christian... not an atheist...
and surfer... not a bad thread at all... and I DON'T hold Anon's side all the time... we just agreed on that whole Iraq thing...and you know it... u just want me to hate you again don't you? lol

OK, maybe we can work chocolate into the science of life.

On a more serious note. Your main point in discrediting religion is that religion "does not matter anymore." To me and others who believe, it does matter. Do you really think all these people were going to church every sunday back in the day? I dont think so. I go quite often actually. In fact, religion is totally an issue in the world today. You can say whatever you want about Osama and his reasons for bombing, but he did explicitly use religion as one of his motives for attacking.

Now for the record, I believe in God, but I will argue this intellectually with you rather than backing this up with "faith" and what not. Now you might argue that religion does not matter, and that it is not real. You might say that people depend on religion for purpose and comfort, but people do that with all sorts of things. You use philosophy, Anon claims to use reason. I know both go hand and hand. Some use hobbies to give them purpose, others find talents. Who is to say that those passions are any more real. You have made it clear that you have no interest in my passion at all, which is obviously politics. Well, I really dont care about what you do either, it means nothing to me, as passion is an intangible and extremely relative agenda in our lives. For instance, you have a passion for AYF. I have been to an AYF thing, and it seems like a propoganda sort of brainwashing thing to me. I have respect as it keeps us close together, but it also makes us a special interest group in the eyes of the American Government. AYF is sort of self defeating in that sense, and if you want me to explain that later I will. But anyway, the point is, you look to certain things for purpose and comfort as do those who look to religion, as do I whom looks to politics, religion, nationalism for the mother land, and America and many other things.

You might say "the nation state, like religion, is an idea concocted by man to control the masses." Well, lets put it this way. Nationalism never kept a country, or an ethnic group together. Before the genocide, it wasnt AYF that kept us together, it was Christianity. Also, what nation state has existed with consistency for 2000 years? None. I can answer that one.

Dont compliment me, thats not how its supposed to be...REMEMBER?

[surferarmo]

Good start. I feel like things are getting better.

I do agree with you somewhat on the issue of religion and its importance to Armenia. It has been our glue so to speak. It has kept us strong, and kept us together through all times of hardship. Whether it helped us win battles...that is another story. Now, I do believe in God, and our church. But our church is run by man. The church, I believe has taken this Motherly, nurturing figure too far. They use God to instill fear in peoples minds so that authority can be credible in the eyes of the public. Honestly, the church is running Armenia. When did preists become politicians? I am not saying they are corrupt. That is relative, hell Baron, you are the most corrupt man to some people, and to others you are the most true and just, and same goes for me. We are all people, and are judged relatively. My point is that the church should not be actively involved in practical politics, or governmental affairs because it will grant the church more than it was granted when we originally started back in 301 AD. This will in turn corrupt the Church, and in effect, will corrupt Gods, name. Not good. When the Church gets in Politics is when persecution begins.

Disagreee there (and things are now back to normal). The Church did NOT change the law, the government changed the law in order to respect the church. The Armenian Apostolic Church is our state chuch, therefore it was normal to adapt the law so that it would not go against our Church's values. Regarding your statement about the Church running Armenia, that is veeeery distant from the truth, and nothing that I have read, or seen or heard in Armenia suggested otherwise. Armenia has a secular government, and all minorities are respected. Yes, the Jehovah's witnesses did have some problem, but I do believe that they caused most of them by trying to convert children, as I mentionned earlier. Besides that, Israel (or maybe a diplomat or two) has claimed that the government of Armenia is anti-semetic, but the head of the Jewish association of Armenia has denied any wrongdoings done by Armenians towards the Jews. A veery cool guy I met in Armenia, whose mom was Jewish, also told me that all such stories are fabricated. The Iranian Muslims are also treated well, as you may have witnessed by the Mosque which is on the busiest street of Armenia, Mashtots (how i miss it), as well as by the decision of the Artsakh Government to repair the Iranian Mosque in Shushi, which needs renovations after the war. Therefore, there is no persecution going on, as the Armenian Church is not running the country, and I see no risk of it taking over anytime soon. It is not instilling fear in its inhabitants either, as most Armenians go to church only occasionally, and do not practice often.

So are you saying the motherland, which is run on the principles of the Church does the same things as the Unitied States; which you have so clearly claimed to be twisted and corrupt? If so, you are then saying our Church is corrupt. Just trying to clarify things.

[xBaron Dants]

How did I say that Armenia is doing things the same way as the USA? Clarify some more :P

[surferarmo]

How did I say that Armenia is doing things the same way as the USA? Clarify some more :P

Sure, I will be glad to do so. You mentioned political correctness. You said that the USA wouldnt serve pork in the white house if Jews were around or something of that nature. Therefore, in such a case, that behavior would be politically correct. Well, if the policy makers of Armenia are not willing to defy the church when constructing their policy, then they too are being politically correct, which are the same devices you claim America to use. Political correctness can lead to corruption and special interests. If you claim it happens here, then it must happen in Armenia and our Church, right?

YOu must be right about the church attendannce fact. I went during the 1700 anniversary. So they must have gone to impress the diasporans. That is a sad fact my friend Baron, a sad fact indeed.

[xBaron Dants]

I have never, don't, and will never care about politics!
for politics is not the science of life... chocolate is...
8)
when it comes to religion and Armenia...(which is politics lol but whatever)
we have evolved... it's called CHANGE...
yes...our church has helped us stick together back in the day, when people didn't really have a life(except for some guys in black robes and wierd sharp hats, in patlajan's words, telling them to fear God cuz they'd go to hell otherwise)...but that doesn't mean that Armenia will disappear today if we took its "christianity" away from it...
that was only true in the Vartan Mamigonian era and back...
it's the year 2003
people (and I've heard of one ARMENIAN family) are actually refusing to baptize their kids, claiming "let him grow up and choose his own religion"...for all I know...
lets face it...religion doesn't really matter anymore...
we're just too afraid of the "afterlife" to admit it!

and AGAIN for the records: I'm christian... not an atheist...
and surfer... not a bad thread at all... and I DON'T hold Anon's side all the time... we just agreed on that whole Iraq thing...and you know it... u just want me to hate you again don't you? lol

Everyone just sees the Church as an organization that basically screwed its followers (sometimes litterally, as we are finding out), but do not forget that the Armenian Church is the ONLY REASON why you are here today on ArmenianClub, or go to barahantesses, or whatever. Your point of view can be set as (correct me if I'm wrong): Religion kept us alive for 1700 years, but since we don't need it right now, let's drop it and move on.

Doesn't it sound more logical to keep it around, you know, since it saved our asses so many times?

And come on, how are you christian if you claim that religion doesn't matter anymore? And how can you claim that religion isn't important anymore? Have you seen the surge of interest towards Islam? Or colser to home, the many people who are in tears every Sunday at Echmiadzin? (not tourists, people who come to pray). The fact is, religion is still very important in Armenia, although I disagree that the Church is running the country.

[xBaron Dants]

How did I say that Armenia is doing things the same way as the USA? Clarify some more :P

Sure, I will be glad to do so. You mentioned political correctness. You said that the USA wouldnt serve pork in the white house if Jews were around or something of that nature. Therefore, in such a case, that behavior would be politically correct. Well, if the policy makers of Armenia are not willing to defy the church when constructing their policy, then they too are being politically correct, which are the same devices you claim America to use. Political correctness can lead to corruption and special interests. If you claim it happens here, then it must happen in Armenia and our Church, right?

YOu must be right about the church attendannce fact. I went during the 1700 anniversary. So they must have gone to impress the diasporans. That is a sad fact my friend Baron, a sad fact indeed.

Oh, I doubt they go to impress the diasporans. I was saying that many people take their diasporan relatives to go to Church. For instance, if you were staying with an armenian family during your stay, they probably did take you to church every week, cause God knows that we have quite a few churches. :P
As well, during the celebration of the 1700th anniversary, I would find it normal to see more people at church, regularly, cause it pretty much reminded us of our past. I am not saying that the Churches are empty when there are no tourists, I am just saying that most Armenians don't go to church every sunday (though the ones I spoke to were certainly believers and knowledgeable towards religion).
I will disagree about the political correctness. God knows that our government is not always politically correct (Kocharian's reference to our ethnic incompatibility with Azerbaidjan, etc). This is not a case of respecting a minority (like chicken at the White House). This is a case where 95% of your country are affiliated with this particular Church.

[hyeclass]

LA

[jahannam]

On a more serious note. Your main point in discrediting religion is that religion "does not matter anymore." To me and others who believe, it does matter. Do you really think all these people were going to church every sunday back in the day? I dont think so. I go quite often actually. In fact, religion is totally an issue in the world today. You can say whatever you want about Osama and his reasons for bombing, but he did explicitly use religion as one of his motives for attacking.

Now for the record, I believe in God, but I will argue this intellectually with you rather than backing this up with "faith" and what not. Now you might argue that religion does not matter, and that it is not real. You might say that people depend on religion for purpose and comfort, but people do that with all sorts of things. You use philosophy, Anon claims to use reason. I know both go hand and hand. Some use hobbies to give them purpose, others find talents. Who is to say that those passions are any more real. You have made it clear that you have no interest in my passion at all, which is obviously politics. Well, I really dont care about what you do either, it means nothing to me, as passion is an intangible and extremely relative agenda in our lives. For instance, you have a passion for AYF. I have been to an AYF thing, and it seems like a propoganda sort of brainwashing thing to me. I have respect as it keeps us close together, but it also makes us a special interest group in the eyes of the American Government. AYF is sort of self defeating in that sense, and if you want me to explain that later I will. But anyway, the point is, you look to certain things for purpose and comfort as do those who look to religion, as do I whom looks to politics, religion, nationalism for the mother land, and America and many other things.

You might say "the nation state, like religion, is an idea concocted by man to control the masses." Well, lets put it this way. Nationalism never kept a country, or an ethnic group together. Before the genocide, it wasnt AYF that kept us together, it was Christianity. Also, what nation state has existed with consistency for 2000 years? None. I can answer that one.

oh wow.. I disagree with so many of the things in that paragraph I don't even know where to start!
first of all, since when has going to church been a standard for measuring religiousness... ????you could be LIVING in church, for all I know, and you could still be in denial of the fact that Jesus died for us...
back in the day people didn't go to church on Sundays... they (specially women) went to church EVERYDAY... cuz they didn't have the "oh lemme wear my mini skirt and glittery pink top and get my hair and make up and nails done and go to church this Sunday right when it's crowded so that some rich family notices me and I get married" mentality.
pure believers can't even STAND the scenes at churches nowadays... they prefer praying at home... and guess what. They're a saaad minority.

now lets talk about your pathetic way of using hobbies and passions to prove me wrong...
comparing your going to church to my supporting AYF... ???how LAME is that?
you're talking about AYF's not being able to "keep armenia together before the genocide"???... lol... you obviously my friend, have no idea what AYF or ANY other armenian organization is about...
oh wait... you've been to an ayf THING...
thing???
whats a thing?
some lame dance they were trying to raise money from(attracting armo surferboys and proud xxxxs by printing some famous DJ's name on the flyer) so that their Karabagh rennovation projects become reality???

"a special interest group in the eyes of the US government"
all I can say is that if you're Armenian and you think this way... God help us with our cause!
anyway .. I got more to say... but i'm falling asleep!
sorry about the long read.. goodnight 8)