Non-Judaic Nature of Christ

[axel]

Re: Non-Judaic Nature of Christ

Yes, in essence, I believe in the creed. The divine being in question was definitely in the Gospels. But which prophets, which law, did it speak through? Perhaps Zoroaster and the Avesta...? The creed in question is the Nicaean formula. Show me where in the Torah/Tanakh does the Holy Spirit appear.

You are playing with words. A quick look at patristic literature removes any possible misunderstanding on the matter.

[axel]

Re: Non-Judaic Nature of Christ

Armenian, you hate Hryas so much, yet you live in New York City. If you're not careful, one day a group of Haredi are going to chop you into pieces and sell you to a local delicatessen.

Tom, you're the only judaizer left on this board (together with Ara). Tell me, what happened to Sip and Thoth aka w(h)inoman?

[Armenian]

Re: Non-Judaic Nature of Christ

Armenian, you hate Hryas so much, yet you live in New York City. If you're not careful, one day a group of Haredi are going to chop you into pieces and sell you to a local delicatessen.

You silly thing you...

Believe it or not, I have no absolutely hate in my being. I am just very opinionated, I am very political. However, I would never be able to physically hurt another human being. My spiritual convictions regarding Christianity have nothing to do with my politics. It was something I slowly developed within myself as a result of many inconsistencies and paradoxes prevalent in Christianity. My first revelation came when I saw Professor Joseph Campbell's interview with Bill Moyer.

As a matter of fact, I believe all people should be familiar with the scholarly works late Joseph Campbell: http://www.kirjasto.sci.fi/campb.htm

Some of Campbell's quotes:

A hero is someone who has given his or her life to something bigger than oneself.

Computers are like Old Testament gods; lots of rules and no mercy.

Every religion is true one way or another. It is true when understood metaphorically. But when it gets stuck in its own metaphors, interpreting them as facts, then you are in trouble.

Find a place inside where there's joy, and the joy will burn out the pain.

Follow your bliss and doors will open where there were no doors before.

God is a metaphor for that which trancends all levels of intellectual thought. It's as simple as that.

I don't believe people are looking for the meaning of life as much as they are looking for the experience of being alive.

I don't have to have faith, I have experience.

I think the person who takes a job in order to live - that is to say, for the money - has turned himself into a slave.

If you follow your bliss, doors will open for you that wouldn't have opened for anyone else.

Is the system going to flatten you out and deny you your humanity, or are you going to be able to make use of the system to the attainment of human purposes?

It is by going down into the abyss that we recover the treasures of life. Where you stumble, there lies your treasure.

Life is without meaning. You bring the meaning to it. The meaning of life is whatever you ascribe it to be. Being alive is the meaning.

Love is a friendship set to music.

Myths are public dreams, dreams are private myths.

One way or another, we all have to find what best fosters the flowering of our humanity in this contemporary life, and dedicate ourselves to that.

Opportunities to find deeper powers within ourselves come when life seems most challenging.

Participate joyfully in the sorrows of the world. We cannot cure the world of sorrows, but we can choose to live in joy.

The big question is whether you are going to be able to say a hearty yes to your adventure.

The goal of life is to make your heartbeat match the beat of the universe, to match your nature with Nature.

The privilege of a lifetime is being who you are.

We must be willing to get rid of the life we've planned, so as to have the life that is waiting for us.

We must be willing to get rid of the life we've planned, so as to have the life that is waiting for us. The old skin has to be shed before the new one can come.

We must let go of the life we have planned, so as to accept the one that is waiting for us.

We're so engaged in doing things to achieve purposes of outer value that we forget the inner value, the rapture that is associated with being alive, is what it is all about.

What each must seek in his life never was on land or sea. It is something out of his own unique potentiality for experience, something that never has been and never could have been experienced by anyone else.

When people get married because they think it's a long-time love affair, they'll be divorced very soon, because all love affairs end in disappointment. But marriage is a recognition of a spiritual identity.

When we quit thinking primarily about ourselves and our own self-preservation, we undergo a truly heroic transformation of consciousness.

When you follow your bliss... doors will open where you would not have thought there would be doors, and where there wouldn't be a door for anyone else.

When you make the sacrifice in marriage, you're sacrificing not to each other but to unity in a relationship.

Your life is the fruit of your own doing. You have no one to blame but yourself.

Your sacred space is where you can find yourself again and again.

Source: http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/au..._campbell.html

[TomServo]

Re: Non-Judaic Nature of Christ

Tom, you're the only judaizer left on this board (together with Ara). Tell me, what happened to Sip and Thoth aka w(h)inoman?

I always thought you and Ara Baliozian had a lot in common. I don't know what you mean by the Judaizer label, but I'll wear it just to irk you.

Sip and winoman are still around.

[Armenian]

Re: Non-Judaic Nature of Christ

You are playing with words. A quick look at patristic literature removes any possible misunderstanding on the matter.

Playing with what words, axel? There is no misunderstanding on the matter. It's quite clear. Patristic literature is essentially medieval spin. Again, where does the Holy Spirit appear/exist within the Old Testament?

The only place where any biblical authority has be able to claim that the Holy Spirit appeared in the Old Testament is in the Genesis quote:...and the "spirit" of God moved upon the face of the water...

This is what I call "playing with words," axel. I would also call this weak attempt - subjective reasoning, selective memory, and wishful thinking...

Nevertheless, even if we accept this Genesis passage as a reference to the one and only Holy Spirit, this still goes to prove that core elements within the first five books of the Torah are non-Judaic in character and origin.

Try explaining to a rabbinical authority that Yahweh has more than one personalities/characters/branches/natures - but they are all the same person indivisible. One of these personalities was a being called the Holy Spirit that did work for... Himself? And anther was a being called the Christ the Son who basically did work for... Himself? And try explaining such an abstract theological concept to a pagan and see if they would not comprehend.

Naturally, the very abstract concept of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost being three different yet the same being is unfathomable for observant J-ews. That is why Christ was rejected by them and why Christ was accepted by pagans.

Going back to the Holy Spirit-Old Testament connection, there are several other very vague and very subjective references as well. But there exists no obvious, concrete or clear appearance of the Holy Spirit as we have in the Gospels. So, who is playing with words, me or those who want to look for things in the Old Testament that does not exist?

Now, see if you can picture a man called Christ constantly speaking and preaching in terms of - Father, Son and Holy Spirit - in Palestine two thousand years ago. Just image now how foreign, how strange, how dangerous, this religious rhetoric must have sounded to traditional Judaic scholars and authorities at the time - as it still does today.

[axel]

Re: Non-Judaic Nature of Christ

Playing with what words, axel?

I mean with the words Law and Prophets when you say "But which prophets, which law, did it speak through? Perhaps Zoroaster and the Avesta...?"

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil

Naturally, the very abstract concept of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost being three different yet the same being is unfathomable for observant J-ews. That is why Christ was rejected.

I beg to differ. The promise made by the prophets was that of an earthly kingdom. At least was it thus understood. But Christ said "My kingdom is not of this world". This is why the j-ews who valued the promise instead of the path rejected Him.

[Armenian]

Re: Non-Judaic Nature of Christ

I mean with the words Law and Prophets when you say "But which prophets, which law, did it speak through? Perhaps Zoroaster and the Avesta...?"

I was being sarcastic, but it might as well be true.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil

He said this according to who? The Gospels, written by the J-ewish followers of Christ, ones who were desperately trying to convert the J-ews to a new form of religion at the time.

Regardless of the supposed words used by Christ, what did Christ and his followers end up doing to the J-ewish faith? Regardless of the supposed words used by Christ, what about all the theological characteristics of Christ that simply does not fit into Judaic traditions?

Don't limit yourself to the literal interpretation, use your sense of reason and attempt to look at the big picture.

I beg to differ. The promise made by the prophets was that of an earthly kingdom. At least was it thus understood. But Christ said "My kingdom is not of this world". This is why the j-ews who valued the promise instead of the path rejected Him.

Yes. So Christ was not their Messiah. Nothing abut Christ fit the Messianic mold, other than some curious statements in reference to him.

Christ was also rejected, according to J-ewish tradition (Talmud), because he was wicked and a corrupt man poisoning the minds of the population. The claims of Christ wanting to be the King of the J-ews was simply used to convince the Romans to kill him. What chances did a handful of eccentric men living off the land have against J-ewish authorities or the Roam Empire?

[axel]

Re: Non-Judaic Nature of Christ

Not to mention Mat 19:24 which may have been particularly difficult to swallow...

Yes, I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God

He said this according to who? The Gospels, written by the J-ewish followers of Christ, ones who were desperately trying to convert the J-ews to a new form of religion at the time.

So now you are questioning the Gospels...
What is left exactly now apart from your subjective "analysis" and interpretation?

[axel]

Re: Non-Judaic Nature of Christ

Patristic literature is essentially medieval spin

St John Chrysostom, medieval spin?

[axel]

Re: Non-Judaic Nature of Christ

Then I guess the Nicene Creed, also, medieval spin.