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Non-Judaic Nature of Christ

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  • #21
    Re: Non-Judaic Nature of Christ

    Armenian,

    Confusion leads to people losing their faith. You are entitled to have your opinions but when you express them publicly on such topics you have to be careful and display some sense of responsibility towards the reader which might not be versed in the subject being discussed. One must not add up to the confusion already created by the media. People making the promotion of the gnostic gospels among other things usually do that with the actual intent of undermining the Faith.

    I don't have neither the time nor the will to debate specific issues here (some of which in fact I do not consider open for debate)
    I reject the general protestant/modern attitude towards subjects of the faith which consists in trying to interpret everything outside of the Tradition of the Church in a sort of "sola scriptura" approach. This is making God an object of human subjectivity and is wrong in my view.


    That said, on spirituality before the incarnation of Christ, we can refer to John 3:8
    The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.


    On the "Jesus was a j-ew" assertion:
    This obviously is an (intentionally) misleading statement for the term "j-ew" refers to a modern reality and modern (talmudic) judaism (which is nothing but a disguised atheism with the j-ewish people being the object of worship) is the exact antithesis of christianism. In fact, a "j-ew" is ontologically someone who has crucified Christ in his soul. The j-ews that were Christ' first followers, we call Christians. Most importantly, God isn't j-ewish (nor armenian ). Actually, this "Jesus was a j-ew" statement has an aftertaste of arianism (from Arius)

    ________________________________________

    We believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of things visible and invisible.

    And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of God the Father, only-begotten, that is of the substance of the Father.

    God from God, light from light, true God from true God, begotten and not made; of the same nature of the Father, by whom all things came into being in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible;

    Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven, took body, became man, was born perfectly of the holy Virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit.

    By whom he took body, soul and mind and everything that is in man, truly and not in semblance.

    He suffered and was crucified and was buried and rose again on the third day and ascended into heaven with the same body and sat at the right hand of the Father.

    He is to come with the same body and with the glory of the Father to judge the living and the dead; of His kingdom there is no end.

    We believe also in the Holy Spirit, the uncreated and the perfect; who spoke through the Law and through the Prophets and through the Gospels;

    Who came down upon the Jordan, preached through the apostles and dwelled in the saints.

    We believe also in only one catholic and apostolic holy Church;

    In one baptism with repentance for the remission and forgiveness of sins;

    In the resurrection of the dead, in the everlasting judgment of souls and bodies, in the kingdom of heaven and in the life eternal.


    Comment


    • #22
      Re: Non-Judaic Nature of Christ

      Originally posted by axel View Post
      Armenian, Confusion leads to people losing their faith. You are entitled to have your opinions but when you express them publicly on such topics you have to be careful and display some sense of responsibility towards the reader which might not be versed in the subject being discussed. One must not add up to the confusion already created by the media. People making the promotion of the gnostic gospels among other things usually do that with the actual intent of undermining the Faith.
      I agree with you here, axel. That is why I seldom bring up this topic amongst Christians, especially Armenian ones. I brought this up here because I am craving for debate and analysis regarding this topic. Perhaps I want to be proven wrong. I have even attempted to discuss with this priests and deacons. The attempt has gotten me no where. I sense that some of them know what I am saying and they more-or less-agree but they don't want to discuss it. And some of them don't want to hear any of it because they have devoted their entire lives to one ideology, and proving it flawed is basically telling them they have wasted their lives. They are basically stuck in a powerful institution.

      But you are right, I'm afraid such realizations regarding Christ and Christianity can be used to undermine the faith - not to enhance it. Undermining of the Christian faith is prevalent all over the modern world, especially within the western world.

      I don't have neither the time nor the will to debate specific issues here (some of which in fact I do not consider open for debate)
      This is a mater of blind faith and personal character. As for me, I always had a problem with blind faith. Why? Because I see Muslims, J-ews, Hindus, etc, also practicing blind faith. As a result, they all think they are right, they all think they have the right answers. I don't want to be in that category. Real spirituality should be a life long journey. I believe a soul is in danger when the mind thinks it has all the answers. By nature, I am also very analytical. And I see that getting in the way of my blind faith.

      I reject the general protestant/modern attitude towards subjects of the faith which consists in trying to interpret everything outside of the Tradition of the Church in a sort of "sola scriptura" approach. This is making God an object of human subjectivity and is wrong in my view.
      The problem I have with our Christianity are the fundamental theological paradoxes and inexplicable discrepancies that exists within it. None of the other major religions have this inherent problem because they as, theological concepts, are better formulated and arranged. Our fundamental problem is taking a non-Judaic Christ/Godman and forcing him to be the J-ewish Messiah. Due to this serious paradox we have had countless cults springing up throughout Christian history. Case in point: The Jehovah Witnesses. What they have done is they have altered all passages that would suggest a Godlike quality for Christ and instead emphasized Christ's humanity, his J-ewishness. They have done this because they see the paradox. And others have done the opposite because they see the paradox.

      Compared to Judaism and Islam, Christianity requires the most 'blind' faith.

      On the "Jesus was a j-ew" assertion: This obviously is an (intentionally) misleading statement for the term "j-ew" refers to a modern reality and modern (talmudic) judaism (which is nothing but a disguised atheism with the j-ewish people being the object of worship) is the exact antithesis of christianism. In fact, a "j-ew" is ontologically someone who has crucified Christ in his soul. The j-ews that were Christ' first followers, we call Christians. Most importantly, God isn't j-ewish (nor armenian ). Actually, this "Jesus was a j-ew" statement has an aftertaste of arianism (from Arius)
      I agree. But this has no bearing on the topic of discussion.

      We believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of things visible and invisible.

      And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of God the Father, only-begotten, that is of the substance of the Father.

      God from God, light from light, true God from true God, begotten and not made; of the same nature of the Father, by whom all things came into being in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible;

      Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven, took body, became man, was born perfectly of the holy Virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit.

      By whom he took body, soul and mind and everything that is in man, truly and not in semblance.

      He suffered and was crucified and was buried and rose again on the third day and ascended into heaven with the same body and sat at the right hand of the Father.

      He is to come with the same body and with the glory of the Father to judge the living and the dead; of His kingdom there is no end.

      We believe also in the Holy Spirit, the uncreated and the perfect; who spoke through the Law and through the Prophets and through the Gospels;

      Who came down upon the Jordan, preached through the apostles and dwelled in the saints.

      We believe also in only one catholic and apostolic holy Church;

      In one baptism with repentance for the remission and forgiveness of sins;

      In the resurrection of the dead, in the everlasting judgment of souls and bodies, in the kingdom of heaven and in the life eternal.


      http://www.armenianchurch.net/worship/creed.html
      An article of faith as formulated in 325 AD. An article of faith which I also accept.

      However, again, what you just claimed to believe in here is essentially not Judaic in nature and origin. The core elements of the Nicaean Havatamq has nothing to do with the J-ewish Messiah.

      That is my point.
      Մեր ժողովուրդն արանց հայրենասիրութեան այն է, ինչ որ մի մարմին' առանց հոգու:

      Նժդեհ


      Please visit me at my Heralding the Rise of Russia blog: http://theriseofrussia.blogspot.com/

      Comment


      • #23
        Re: Non-Judaic Nature of Christ

        Originally posted by Armenian
        By nature, I am also very analytical. And I see that getting in the way of my blind faith
        Precisely. "Analytical". But Faith is beyond reason. It is irrational. Everything great is irrational. If you want to call it blind, you may.

        Corinthians 1


        17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
        18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
        19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
        20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
        21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
        22 For the j-ews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
        23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the j-ews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
        24 But unto them which are called, both j-ews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
        25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
        26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
        27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
        28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
        29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
        30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
        31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.


        Originally posted by Armenian
        However, again, what you just claimed to believe in here is essentially not Judaic in nature and origin.
        So I should have put this passage in emphasis (clearly a reference to the old testament, call that "judaic" if you will)

        We believe also in the Holy Spirit, the uncreated and the perfect; who spoke through the Law and through the Prophets and through the Gospels.

        We agree that we are not discussing the nature of Christ here, just the place of the old testament in christianism.

        PS: I am not a judaizer (far from it). I actually happen to be a full-fledged wagnerite (which is sort of a "problem with our Christianity" as you put it)

        Comment


        • #24
          Re: Non-Judaic Nature of Christ

          Originally posted by Armenian View Post
          Lucin jan, your boundless wisdom has inspired me to post this thread: http://forum.armenianclub.com/showthread.php?t=10028
          Thank you my dear, you have so much heart=)
          And the articles are quite intersting, however I need to find the equivalent of some terms and especially some names in Armenian or Persian, to understand better.


          Originally posted by Armenian View Post
          New and Old Testaments have been a part of our heritage for close to two thousand years now. Although I personally reject the Old Testament and embrace other sacred texts as sacred such as the Avesta, I can't blame the average Armenian, the average Christian today, for not understanding.
          I didn't find exactly in the O.T what I was looking for... In any case, I just look at it as a book narrating a series of 'events', stories and adventures, in other words a history book that may not be necessarily as plausible. And of course, I think it should be kept out of reach of children...


          Originally posted by Armenian View Post
          Having said that, objective and open-minded people who study Christian and Zoroastrian theology and ethics soon realize that Christ had fundamentally more in common with Zoroaster and Buddha than with a mythical being called Moses.
          Personally, I have always been attracted to Zoroastrian ethics; they never sounded strange to me, on the contrary, they are so familiar and close to my heart. Anyway, can you please clarify what you mean by 'mythical' here, if you wish?


          Originally posted by Armenian View Post
          In essence, we have two characters in the Gospels - a Godman called Christ and a rabbi called Jesus of Nazareth. Upon closer look, these two characters cannot be made to fit the same mold, and they cannot fit no matter how hard our church theologians try.
          This is exactly where this confusion comes from and people cannot have a clear idea of these two irreconciliable characters presented in the Gospels and often refer to Jesus; as King of J.ews.
          Also, this is where the morons called "Yahweh Witnesses" 'manoeuvre'...


          Originally posted by Azad View Post
          Before Christianity was revised by the Semites the real name of the Son is Ara and Aramazd is The Father. Our present Christianity is only a 3ed generation of Armenian Holly history distorted first by Zoroastrians than revised by the Semites.
          It doesn't seem that anything was distorted or corrupted but Christanity seems to be a kind of evolution of our initial beliefs ( Zoroastrianism in particular), it did not distort anything, it just completed, 'concretized' and shaped it.

          And how is it exactly 'revised' by Semites ( you mean J.ews, I guess) that it's still somehow 'anti-Semitic'? I'm talking about the New Testament.

          Originally posted by Azad View Post
          None of the biblical stories could fit present Palestine/israel.. the place is a desert let alone for it to rain and flood. Reason why Armenians embraced Christianity first cause it was dear to their behavior ... little they knew it was their own History recycled and distorted back to them after 4000 years.
          You are a bit oversimplifying this matter. It's is not reasonable. Such climatic changes are quite natural and frequent that happen everywhere, and these changes are sometimes visible in a very short period of time, let alone 2000 years. (When I was a kid, I remember we used to have freezing winters in my city, but in some twenty years time, it has changed drastically, the winters are not as cold as they used to be.)


          Originally posted by axel View Post
          PS for Lucin: the immaculate conception is a nineteethn century catholic dogma which asserts the virgin Mary was born without the stain of the original sin. It is not held as truth by orthodox christians.
          How so?? Explain please, Axël. Wasn't it mentioned in the N.T.?? By the way, as far as I know, 'immaculate conception' means that she concieved as a virgin and not she was born without the stain of the original sin, as you suggest.
          Last edited by Lucin; 11-05-2007, 09:24 AM.

          Comment


          • #25
            Re: Non-Judaic Nature of Christ

            Originally posted by Lucin View Post
            How so?? Explain please, Axël. Wasn't it mentioned in the N.T.?? By the way, as far as I know, 'immaculate conception' means that she concieved as a virgin and not she was born without the stain of the original sin, as you suggest.
            see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immaculate_Conception for further details

            Comment


            • #26
              Re: Non-Judaic Nature of Christ

              Originally posted by Lucin View Post
              How so?? Explain please, Axël. Wasn't it mentioned in the N.T.?? By the way, as far as I know, 'immaculate conception' means that she concieved as a virgin and not she was born without the stain of the original sin, as you suggest.
              Lucin jan, you and axel are talking about two different things. Axel is referring to the Catholic belief that Mary/Mariam was fee of original sin, which is part of the Catholic Church's Immaculate Conception formula. You are simply referring to the miraculous impregnation of Mary by the Holy Spirit.
              Մեր ժողովուրդն արանց հայրենասիրութեան այն է, ինչ որ մի մարմին' առանց հոգու:

              Նժդեհ


              Please visit me at my Heralding the Rise of Russia blog: http://theriseofrussia.blogspot.com/

              Comment


              • #27
                Re: Non-Judaic Nature of Christ

                The Holy Spirit


                Within the Christian tradition, the Holy Spirit is exclusively a New Testament being for it does not appear anywhere within the so-called Old Testament. In the Gospels, Christ gives the Holy Spirit a special status by claiming that all sins may be forgiven but sins against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. Having said that, there is a being called Spenta Manyu (translated more-or-less as a holy spirit in the ancient Persian language) that exists within the Zoroastrian Avesta as a messenger and manager of the supreme God, Ahuramazda/Aramazd. The following is what the Encyclopedia Britannica states about Spenta Manyu:

                in Zoroastrianism, the Holy Spirit, created by the wise Lord, Ahura Mazda, to oppose the Destructive Spirit, Angra Mainyu. Spenta Mainyu is an aspect of the Wise Lord himself. Through the Holy Spirit, Ahura Mazda creates life and goodness. According to Zoroastrian belief, Spenta Mainyu protects and maintains many realms and creatures—the sky, water, earth, plants, and children… Source: http://www.britannica.com/eb/article...yu#254033.hook
                Մեր ժողովուրդն արանց հայրենասիրութեան այն է, ինչ որ մի մարմին' առանց հոգու:

                Նժդեհ


                Please visit me at my Heralding the Rise of Russia blog: http://theriseofrussia.blogspot.com/

                Comment


                • #28
                  Re: Non-Judaic Nature of Christ

                  Originally posted by Armenian
                  Within the Christian tradition, the Holy Spirit is exclusively a New Testament being for it does not appear anywhere within the so-called Old Testament.
                  Well, what about this passage of the Creed

                  We believe also in the Holy Spirit, the uncreated and the perfect; who
                  spoke through the Law and through the Prophets and through the Gospels.


                  I mentioned earlier?

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    Re: Non-Judaic Nature of Christ

                    Originally posted by axel
                    What about this passage of the Creed

                    We believe also in the Holy Spirit, the uncreated and the perfect; who
                    spoke through the Law and through the Prophets and through the Gospels.


                    I mentioned earlier?
                    Yes, in essence, I believe in the creed. The divine being in question was definitely in the Gospels. But which prophets, which law, did it speak through? Perhaps Zoroaster and the Avesta...? The creed in question is the Nicaean formula. Show me where in the Torah/Tanakh does the Holy Spirit appear.
                    Մեր ժողովուրդն արանց հայրենասիրութեան այն է, ինչ որ մի մարմին' առանց հոգու:

                    Նժդեհ


                    Please visit me at my Heralding the Rise of Russia blog: http://theriseofrussia.blogspot.com/

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      Re: Non-Judaic Nature of Christ

                      Armenian, you hate Hryas so much, yet you live in New York City. If you're not careful, one day a group of Haredi are going to chop you into pieces and sell you to a local delicatessen.

                      Comment

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