Non-Judaic Nature of Christ

[Armenian]

Re: Non-Judaic Nature of Christ

St John Chrysostom, medieval spin?

St John Chrysostom is perhaps one of the greatest church fathers.

When I say spin, I mean spin in that doing something in the defense of a particular belief system. I believe that St John Chrysostom, as all other church fathers, deeply believed in his spiritual rhetoric. Marcion, however, was also convinced of his beliefs, so was Arian, etc... Similarly, a Muslim scholar will refute anything written by a Christian. A J-ewish scholar who will refute anything written by a Muslim or a Christian...

We all defend our sect, it's human.

Again, I ask you to use your reason and look at the big picture.

Then I guess the Nicene Creed, also, medieval spin.

Yes, it was. It was the official decree of the Empire, sanctioned by the pagan Emperor. They, at Nicaea, decided that it was absolutely necessary to spell out line-by-line exactly what it was that Christians 'had' to believe - because they were so many other theological formulas in existence at the time.

So now you are questioning the Gospels...
What is left exactly now apart from your subjective "analysis" and interpretation?

I would say I am 'reading between the lines' of the Gospels, not questioning it. And I am doing this because the Gospels, as complied and passed down, have caused great confusion and disarray within Christianity.

[Sip]

Re: Non-Judaic Nature of Christ

I always thought you and Ara Baliozian had a lot in common. I don't know what you mean by the Judaizer label, but I'll wear it just to irk you.

Sip and winoman are still around.

I don't know how my name got dragged in here and again with winoman non the less. My only comment here is I refuse to discuss anything that fundamentally is based on "make belief" (aka faith) as the rules of the game are such that it all comes down to what one chooses to believe.

And yah, what is a Judaizer? Is it perhaps someone who can type jew in this forum and get it passed the censor?

[axel]

Re: Non-Judaic Nature of Christ

I don't know how my name got dragged in here and again with winoman non the less. My only comment here is I refuse to discuss anything that fundamentally is based on "make belief" (aka faith) as the rules of the game are such that it all comes down to what one chooses to believe.

And yah, what is a Judaizer? Is it perhaps someone who can type jew in this forum and get it passed the censor?

No, the ability to type j[size=2]e[/size]w, sorry jew and get it passed the censor is not a valid discriminant

[Armenian]

Re: Non-Judaic Nature of Christ

Anyway, can you please clarify what you mean by 'mythical' here, if you wish?

In Egyptian archives, historically speaking that is, Moses never existed. Historically, there is not one reference concerning the Hebrew 'Exodus' in Egyptian records. The only place these stories exist are in J-ewish writings, which has lead some scholars to believe that they are national myths. A highly significant sociopolitical event, as described in Exodus, must have been mentioned in Egyptians records. However, no such reference exists - this in the light of the fact that there are a lot of ancient Egyptian archives in existence. Also, there are some schools of thought that 'Moses' may actually have been a borrowed Egyptian god. The funny part here is that J-ewish scholars have for decades attacked Christ for not appearing in historical texts of the time - even though he is referred to in some historical texts.

This is exactly where this confusion comes from and people cannot have a clear idea of these two irreconciliable characters presented in the Gospels and often refer to Jesus; as King of J.ews. Also, this is where the morons called "Yahweh Witnesses" 'manoeuvre'...

Exactly, Lucin jan. The inconsistencies and the paradoxes in traditional Christianity are the fundamental reasons why all kinds of cults spring up, like the Jehovah Witnesses. Like I outlined above, the Jehovah Witnesses have chosen to abandon the 'divine' aspect of Christ and instead emphasize the 'human' J-ewish rabbi aspect of Jesus.

Christ and Jesus simply don't mix well in any theological concoction.

It doesn't seem that anything was distorted or corrupted but Christanity seems to be a kind of evolution of our initial beliefs ( Zoroastrianism in particular), it did not distort anything, it just completed, 'concretized' and shaped it.

Yes, Christianity is the natural evolution of our ancestral faith.

It's interesting how you and I think similarly

[Lucin]

Re: Non-Judaic Nature of Christ

My only comment here is I refuse to discuss anything that fundamentally is based on "make belief" (aka faith) as the rules of the game are such that it all comes down to what one chooses to believe.

So you believe in nothing. LOL, not even in Mohammad or Emam Zaman?
Good for you, I guess life is less stressful that way.
But seriously, whenever I loose my faith ( it has happened a few times), I feel so down, I feel disapointed, disgruntled and empty. I can't imagine how life goes on for you, without faith.

In Egyptian archives, historically speaking that is, Moses never existed. Historically, there is not one reference concerning the Hebrew 'Exodus' in Egyptian records. The only place these stories exist are in J-ewish writings, which has lead some scholars to believe that they are national myths. A highly significant sociopolitical event, as described in Exodus, must have been mentioned in Egyptians records. However, no such reference exists - this in the light of the fact that there are a lot of ancient Egyptian archives in existence. Also, there are some schools of thought that 'Moses' may actually have been a borrowed Egyptian god. The funny part here is that J-ewish scholars have for decades attacked Christ for not appearing in historical texts of the time - even though he is referred to in some historical texts.

Interesting...
Unlike you ( and Axël) I don't have much knowledge about those famous, respected scholors you talk about, and their ideas. My knowledge is limited to the Bible, Avesta (and Coran) and just a bunch of my personal interpretations and conclusions.

It's interesting how you and I think similarly

Yeah... But you know, God works in mysterious ways.

------------------------------------------------------------------


It's also noteworthy that Muslums also believe in some sort of "Messiah" called Imam Mahdi or Imam Zaman ( Imam of Time).
According to them, it is someone who was once living among us but disappeared mysteriously in order to reappear once again in the futur and in the right time ( that's why they call him Imam of Time) when humanity is in a chaos, etc.
It's weird... I wonder if they have 'stolen' the idea from Christians or...?

[Sip]

Re: Non-Judaic Nature of Christ

So you believe in nothing. LOL, not even in Mohammad or Emam Zaman?
Good for you, I guess life is less stressful that way.
But seriously, whenever I loose my faith ( it has happened a few times), I feel so down, I feel disapointed, disgruntled and empty. I can't imagine how life goes on for you, without faith.

I believe in testable theories that are able to predict things. A claim such as "don't masturbate or you'll go to hell" is not a "testable" statement so I have no reason to believe or disbelieve it. Such statements are entirely useless in my life.

On the other hand, for statements such as "do not steal [since society will function better that way]", there are clear ways of testing this statement and thus, it is possible to believe it (or not).

Now that you bring up Mohammad (pbuh), actually I have to say at least he never claimed to have super powers like Jesus. I appreciate a lot of things Jesus has said in how one should live, but this whole ordeal about spirits, and eternal afterlife, and coming back from the dead etc is just fictional rediculousness to me

And life goes on just fine! I find happiness in other places ... for example when I accomplish something non trivial .. build something useful ... solve some difficult problem ... when I experience something pleasurable (both carnal and mental) ... just human stuff like that.

[Armenian]

Re: Non-Judaic Nature of Christ

It's also noteworthy that Muslums also believe in some sort of "Messiah" called Imam Mahdi or Imam Zaman ( Imam of Time).

The theological concepts of a "savior" that is to judge mankind at the end of times, is universal. The belief in Christ, in essence, is universal. The core beliefs of major religions are strikingly similar to each other. As such, the Shiite Iman Zaman, the Greco-Roman world's Mithra (Arm: Mher) and the Christian Christ are of the same nature as that of the Zoroastrian savior - Saoshyant.

Was Jesus Christ the Saoshyant prophesied by Zoroaster?

Saoshyant

Saoshyant is in Zoroastrianism the World Savior. During the period which was the dark years of the religion the belief in a savior emerged. Gathic passages suggest Zoroaster was filled with a sense of the imminent end of the world which caused him to envision Ahura Mazda sending "a man who is better than a good man" (Y 43.3), the Saoshyant, literally meaning "one who will bring benefit," who will possess revealed truth and will lead humanity in the final battle against evil. It is probable that Zoroaster realized that he was not going to live to see the age of Frasho-kereti. His followers ardently clung to this expectation, coming to believe that Saoshyant would come from the prophet's own seed, miraculously preserved in the depths of a lake (identified as Lake Kasaoya). When the end of time approaches, it is said, a virgin will bathe in this lake and become with child by the prophet, and she will in due course bear a son, named Astvat-ereta, "He who embodies righteousness" (after Zoroaster's own words: "My righteousness embodied" Y 43.16). Despite of his miraculous conception, Saoshyant will be born of human parents according to Zoroaster's teachings. Saoshyant will participate in the cosmic struggle, being accompanied by kings and heroes, and by Khvarenah. Avesta gives the most detailed account: "When Astvat-ereta comes from the Lake Kasaoya, messenger of Ahura Mazda…then he will drive the Drug out from the world of Asha." Such a glorious moment was eagerly hoped for by the faithful, and this hope was to be their strength and comfort in adverse times. According to other mythological traditions Saoshyant, or Saoshyans, is referred to in the plural indicating the religious and other leaders. "The first to be summoned by man, fire, water, and plants to oppose Dahaka is Thraetona (Freifoun). Dahaka (later Zohak), a tyrannical king on whose shoulders grow two voracious serpents, is the symbol of violent, orgiastic kingship destroying the "elements." Thraetina does not prevail and recourse is taken to another hero, Sam Kersasp, son of Mariman, who puts Dahaka to death. Then after a long period of ruling over the world, Kersasp hands to Kay Husroy, who governs with Saoshyans (representing religious tradition) as his great mobed (chief of the ecclesiastical hierarchy). Kay Husroy is succeeded by the first Mazdaen king, Vishtasp, and Saoshyans by the founder of the religion, Zarasthustra" A.G.H.

Source: http://www.themystica.com/mystica/ar...saoshyant.html

Note: In the Armenian epic Sasuntsi David, David's great-grandmother, Tzovinar, is miraculously impregnated when she drinks of a spring water while relaxing with friends by a lake. Soon thereafter, Tsovinar gives birth to two heroes, Sanasar and Baghtasar. Another epic hero, Mher (Mithra), is their off-spring. According to ancient Armenian folklore, Mher is said to buried in a tomb in Van waiting the "cleansing" of the evil world the end of time.

Zoroastrian Last Judgment

"Zoroaster was thus the first to teach the doctrines of an individual judgment, Heaven and Hell, the future resurrection of the body, the general Last Judgment, and life everlasting for the reunited soul and body. These doctrines were to become familiar articles of faith to much of mankind, through borrowings by Judaism, Christianity and Islam; yet it is in Zoroastrianism itself that they have their fullest logical coherence ..." (Mary Boyce, Zoroastrians, pg 29)

Three saviors and the resurrection

In his Gathas (Hymns), Zarathushtra tells us of The World Savior, Saoshyant (Pahl. Soshyant), who is to come and stop the cruelty of bloodthirsty and wicked people, and renew the world, and end death. See Yasna 48.11-12, Yasna 43.3, The victorious Saoshyant and his helpers make the world wonderful: Yt19.9+, Yt19.88+, Astvat-ereta rises out of lake Kansaoya, and Asha will conquer the Druj: Yt19.92+, Dk3.102, Exaltation of mankind, see Dk3.247, Dk3.407. Three saviors will be born of virgins miraculously impregnated with Zarathushtra's seed while bathing in Lake Kansaoya: Aushedar, Aushedar-mah, and the Saoshyant (named Astvat-ereta).

Here is a very interesting historical essay about Zoroastrianism: http://www.iranchamber.com/religions...ns_in_iran.php

And this one concerning the Persian New Year, No-Ruz: http://www.netnative.com/ny/massoume.html

Now, I ask you all to compare these beliefs outlined above to that of Christianity - and especially to that of Judaism.

[Armenian]

Re: Non-Judaic Nature of Christ

I believe in testable theories that are able to predict things. A claim such as "don't masturbate or you'll go to hell"

Listen Sip, I allow you to "masturbate" as much as you like (I don't think any serious theologian would say you will go to hell for it), but please don't turn this thread into a debate regarding whether or not God exists. As far as I'm concerned, not believing in God requires immensely more blind faith that believing in God. Let's leave it at that.

[Sip]

Re: Non-Judaic Nature of Christ

Listen Armenian, it is entirely irrelevant to me as to what you "allow" me or "disallow me". She asked me a question about faith, and I answered. It's a public forum so if you don't like certain opinions, I "allow" you to go somewhere and make a private blog and babble as much as you want.

[Yeznik]

Re: Non-Judaic Nature of Christ

How do all your studies spiritually enlighten your life? Does this bring you closer to God or further from Him? I understand that you don’t believe in the OT books and that you see Christianity in the Avesta, but the fact of the matter is that those books are there and they are not going anywhere.

I have a slight concern regarding your statements regarding the Church Fathers and the Saints I hope you understand that their primary objective is the bring spiritual guidance, and when you are “challenging” them that you recognize your statements are as comparative historical assessments and not matters for spiritual guidance. For example there are parallels between Christ and Mher and Buddha, but no such example of a person or that stereotype existed in the OT, this is just an assessment not grounds for spiritual guidance.