Non-Judaic Nature of Christ

[Armenian]

Re: Non-Judaic Nature of Christ

The Holy Spirit

Within the Christian tradition, the Holy Spirit is exclusively a New Testament being for it does not appear anywhere within the so-called Old Testament. In the Gospels, Christ gives the Holy Spirit a special status by claiming that all sins may be forgiven but sins against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. Having said that, there is a being called Spenta Manyu (translated more-or-less as a holy spirit in the ancient Persian language) that exists within the Zoroastrian Avesta as a messenger and manager of the supreme God, Ahuramazda/Aramazd. The following is what the Encyclopedia Britannica states about Spenta Manyu:

in Zoroastrianism, the Holy Spirit, created by the wise Lord, Ahura Mazda, to oppose the Destructive Spirit, Angra Mainyu. Spenta Mainyu is an aspect of the Wise Lord himself. Through the Holy Spirit, Ahura Mazda creates life and goodness. According to Zoroastrian belief, Spenta Mainyu protects and maintains many realms and creatures—the sky, water, earth, plants, and children… Source: http://www.britannica.com/eb/article...yu#254033.hook

[Armenian]

Re: Non-Judaic Nature of Christ

How so?? Explain please, Axël. Wasn't it mentioned in the N.T.?? By the way, as far as I know, 'immaculate conception' means that she concieved as a virgin and not she was born without the stain of the original sin, as you suggest.

Lucin jan, you and axel are talking about two different things. Axel is referring to the Catholic belief that Mary/Mariam was fee of original sin, which is part of the Catholic Church's Immaculate Conception formula. You are simply referring to the miraculous impregnation of Mary by the Holy Spirit.

Re: Non-Judaic Nature of Christ

How so?? Explain please, Axël. Wasn't it mentioned in the N.T.?? By the way, as far as I know, 'immaculate conception' means that she concieved as a virgin and not she was born without the stain of the original sin, as you suggest.

see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immaculate_Conception for further details

[Lucin]

Re: Non-Judaic Nature of Christ

Lucin jan, your boundless wisdom has inspired me to post this thread: http://forum.armenianclub.com/showthread.php?t=10028

Thank you my dear, you have so much heart=)
And the articles are quite intersting, however I need to find the equivalent of some terms and especially some names in Armenian or Persian, to understand better.

New and Old Testaments have been a part of our heritage for close to two thousand years now. Although I personally reject the Old Testament and embrace other sacred texts as sacred such as the Avesta, I can't blame the average Armenian, the average Christian today, for not understanding.

I didn't find exactly in the O.T what I was looking for... In any case, I just look at it as a book narrating a series of 'events', stories and adventures, in other words a history book that may not be necessarily as plausible. And of course, I think it should be kept out of reach of children...

Having said that, objective and open-minded people who study Christian and Zoroastrian theology and ethics soon realize that Christ had fundamentally more in common with Zoroaster and Buddha than with a mythical being called Moses.

Personally, I have always been attracted to Zoroastrian ethics; they never sounded strange to me, on the contrary, they are so familiar and close to my heart. Anyway, can you please clarify what you mean by 'mythical' here, if you wish?

In essence, we have two characters in the Gospels - a Godman called Christ and a rabbi called Jesus of Nazareth. Upon closer look, these two characters cannot be made to fit the same mold, and they cannot fit no matter how hard our church theologians try.

This is exactly where this confusion comes from and people cannot have a clear idea of these two irreconciliable characters presented in the Gospels and often refer to Jesus; as King of J.ews.
Also, this is where the morons called "Yahweh Witnesses" 'manoeuvre'...

Before Christianity was revised by the Semites the real name of the Son is Ara and Aramazd is The Father. Our present Christianity is only a 3ed generation of Armenian Holly history distorted first by Zoroastrians than revised by the Semites.

It doesn't seem that anything was distorted or corrupted but Christanity seems to be a kind of evolution of our initial beliefs ( Zoroastrianism in particular), it did not distort anything, it just completed, 'concretized' and shaped it.

And how is it exactly 'revised' by Semites ( you mean J.ews, I guess) that it's still somehow 'anti-Semitic'? I'm talking about the New Testament.

None of the biblical stories could fit present Palestine/israel.. the place is a desert let alone for it to rain and flood. Reason why Armenians embraced Christianity first cause it was dear to their behavior ... little they knew it was their own History recycled and distorted back to them after 4000 years.

You are a bit oversimplifying this matter. It's is not reasonable. Such climatic changes are quite natural and frequent that happen everywhere, and these changes are sometimes visible in a very short period of time, let alone 2000 years. (When I was a kid, I remember we used to have freezing winters in my city, but in some twenty years time, it has changed drastically, the winters are not as cold as they used to be.)

PS for Lucin: the immaculate conception is a nineteethn century catholic dogma which asserts the virgin Mary was born without the stain of the original sin. It is not held as truth by orthodox christians.

How so?? Explain please, Axël. Wasn't it mentioned in the N.T.?? By the way, as far as I know, 'immaculate conception' means that she concieved as a virgin and not she was born without the stain of the original sin, as you suggest.

Re: Non-Judaic Nature of Christ

By nature, I am also very analytical. And I see that getting in the way of my blind faith

Precisely. "Analytical". But Faith is beyond reason. It is irrational. Everything great is irrational. If you want to call it blind, you may.

Corinthians 1


17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22 For the j-ews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the j-ews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 But unto them which are called, both j-ews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

However, again, what you just claimed to believe in here is essentially not Judaic in nature and origin.

So I should have put this passage in emphasis (clearly a reference to the old testament, call that "judaic" if you will)

We believe also in the Holy Spirit, the uncreated and the perfect; who spoke through the Law and through the Prophets and through the Gospels.

We agree that we are not discussing the nature of Christ here, just the place of the old testament in christianism.

PS: I am not a judaizer (far from it). I actually happen to be a full-fledged wagnerite (which is sort of a "problem with our Christianity" as you put it)

[Armenian]

Re: Non-Judaic Nature of Christ

Armenian, Confusion leads to people losing their faith. You are entitled to have your opinions but when you express them publicly on such topics you have to be careful and display some sense of responsibility towards the reader which might not be versed in the subject being discussed. One must not add up to the confusion already created by the media. People making the promotion of the gnostic gospels among other things usually do that with the actual intent of undermining the Faith.

I agree with you here, axel. That is why I seldom bring up this topic amongst Christians, especially Armenian ones. I brought this up here because I am craving for debate and analysis regarding this topic. Perhaps I want to be proven wrong. I have even attempted to discuss with this priests and deacons. The attempt has gotten me no where. I sense that some of them know what I am saying and they more-or less-agree but they don't want to discuss it. And some of them don't want to hear any of it because they have devoted their entire lives to one ideology, and proving it flawed is basically telling them they have wasted their lives. They are basically stuck in a powerful institution.

But you are right, I'm afraid such realizations regarding Christ and Christianity can be used to undermine the faith - not to enhance it. Undermining of the Christian faith is prevalent all over the modern world, especially within the western world.

I don't have neither the time nor the will to debate specific issues here (some of which in fact I do not consider open for debate)

This is a mater of blind faith and personal character. As for me, I always had a problem with blind faith. Why? Because I see Muslims, J-ews, Hindus, etc, also practicing blind faith. As a result, they all think they are right, they all think they have the right answers. I don't want to be in that category. Real spirituality should be a life long journey. I believe a soul is in danger when the mind thinks it has all the answers. By nature, I am also very analytical. And I see that getting in the way of my blind faith.

I reject the general protestant/modern attitude towards subjects of the faith which consists in trying to interpret everything outside of the Tradition of the Church in a sort of "sola scriptura" approach. This is making God an object of human subjectivity and is wrong in my view.

The problem I have with our Christianity are the fundamental theological paradoxes and inexplicable discrepancies that exists within it. None of the other major religions have this inherent problem because they as, theological concepts, are better formulated and arranged. Our fundamental problem is taking a non-Judaic Christ/Godman and forcing him to be the J-ewish Messiah. Due to this serious paradox we have had countless cults springing up throughout Christian history. Case in point: The Jehovah Witnesses. What they have done is they have altered all passages that would suggest a Godlike quality for Christ and instead emphasized Christ's humanity, his J-ewishness. They have done this because they see the paradox. And others have done the opposite because they see the paradox.

Compared to Judaism and Islam, Christianity requires the most 'blind' faith.

On the "Jesus was a j-ew" assertion: This obviously is an (intentionally) misleading statement for the term "j-ew" refers to a modern reality and modern (talmudic) judaism (which is nothing but a disguised atheism with the j-ewish people being the object of worship) is the exact antithesis of christianism. In fact, a "j-ew" is ontologically someone who has crucified Christ in his soul. The j-ews that were Christ' first followers, we call Christians. Most importantly, God isn't j-ewish (nor armenian ). Actually, this "Jesus was a j-ew" statement has an aftertaste of arianism (from Arius)

I agree. But this has no bearing on the topic of discussion.

We believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of God the Father, only-begotten, that is of the substance of the Father.

God from God, light from light, true God from true God, begotten and not made; of the same nature of the Father, by whom all things came into being in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible;

Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven, took body, became man, was born perfectly of the holy Virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit.

By whom he took body, soul and mind and everything that is in man, truly and not in semblance.

He suffered and was crucified and was buried and rose again on the third day and ascended into heaven with the same body and sat at the right hand of the Father.

He is to come with the same body and with the glory of the Father to judge the living and the dead; of His kingdom there is no end.

We believe also in the Holy Spirit, the uncreated and the perfect; who spoke through the Law and through the Prophets and through the Gospels;

Who came down upon the Jordan, preached through the apostles and dwelled in the saints.

We believe also in only one catholic and apostolic holy Church;

In one baptism with repentance for the remission and forgiveness of sins;

In the resurrection of the dead, in the everlasting judgment of souls and bodies, in the kingdom of heaven and in the life eternal.

http://www.armenianchurch.net/worship/creed.html

An article of faith as formulated in 325 AD. An article of faith which I also accept.

However, again, what you just claimed to believe in here is essentially not Judaic in nature and origin. The core elements of the Nicaean Havatamq has nothing to do with the J-ewish Messiah.

That is my point.

Re: Non-Judaic Nature of Christ

Armenian,

Confusion leads to people losing their faith. You are entitled to have your opinions but when you express them publicly on such topics you have to be careful and display some sense of responsibility towards the reader which might not be versed in the subject being discussed. One must not add up to the confusion already created by the media. People making the promotion of the gnostic gospels among other things usually do that with the actual intent of undermining the Faith.

I don't have neither the time nor the will to debate specific issues here (some of which in fact I do not consider open for debate)
I reject the general protestant/modern attitude towards subjects of the faith which consists in trying to interpret everything outside of the Tradition of the Church in a sort of "sola scriptura" approach. This is making God an object of human subjectivity and is wrong in my view.


That said, on spirituality before the incarnation of Christ, we can refer to John 3:8
The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.


On the "Jesus was a j-ew" assertion:
This obviously is an (intentionally) misleading statement for the term "j-ew" refers to a modern reality and modern (talmudic) judaism (which is nothing but a disguised atheism with the j-ewish people being the object of worship) is the exact antithesis of christianism. In fact, a "j-ew" is ontologically someone who has crucified Christ in his soul. The j-ews that were Christ' first followers, we call Christians. Most importantly, God isn't j-ewish (nor armenian ). Actually, this "Jesus was a j-ew" statement has an aftertaste of arianism (from Arius)

________________________________________

We believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of God the Father, only-begotten, that is of the substance of the Father.

God from God, light from light, true God from true God, begotten and not made; of the same nature of the Father, by whom all things came into being in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible;

Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven, took body, became man, was born perfectly of the holy Virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit.

By whom he took body, soul and mind and everything that is in man, truly and not in semblance.

He suffered and was crucified and was buried and rose again on the third day and ascended into heaven with the same body and sat at the right hand of the Father.

He is to come with the same body and with the glory of the Father to judge the living and the dead; of His kingdom there is no end.

We believe also in the Holy Spirit, the uncreated and the perfect; who spoke through the Law and through the Prophets and through the Gospels;

Who came down upon the Jordan, preached through the apostles and dwelled in the saints.

We believe also in only one catholic and apostolic holy Church;

In one baptism with repentance for the remission and forgiveness of sins;

In the resurrection of the dead, in the everlasting judgment of souls and bodies, in the kingdom of heaven and in the life eternal.

http://www.armenianchurch.net/worship/creed.html

[Yedtarts]

Re: Non-Judaic Nature of Christ

In Defense of My Spiritual Convictions

Amen

Amen!

[Armenian]

Re: Non-Judaic Nature of Christ

In Defense of My Spiritual Convictions

John's baptism of Christ in the official presence of the Holy Trinity

I have read the works of the Christian apologists (I used to be one myself, in a sense). In my opinion, relatively speaking, the apologists' works are nothing but verbal gymnastics and theological spin. It's the defense of a particular view or a formulation in theology by special interests. Let's also realize that traditional Christianity as we currently know it, in a sense, became the officially sanctioned religion of the most powerful entity on earth at the time, the Eastern Roman Empire (Byzantium). Thus, that particular line of theological reasoning/formula had immense influence over other belief systems that may have existed within the vast territories of the Eastern Roman Empire. Let's also take into serious consideration that many of the so-called heretical movements were only subdued by bloody suppression, sometime lasting generations to eliminate completely. What we have here is a glaring example of how winners have written history. And the winners in this case also managed to destroy most of the literature of the so-called "heretics" of old.

Nevertheless, the fact still remains: core elements found within Christian theology and ritual are non-Judaic in nature and origin. As a matter of fact, one can rightfully claim that some core elements found within J-ewish beliefs and traditions are not Judaic either.

To move forward, one must be able to break the emotional bonds of literally interpreting the works of the church forefathers and/or the apostles and to begin reading between the rhetorical or theosophical lines. As a result, the probable manipulation of Christ's statements or his biography by his J-ewish followers is a very crucial realization one has arrive at here. On the one hand, derived from the Gospels, we have a Trinity represented by God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit that closely resembles deities found within the pagan world. Christ's philosophies and ethics resemble that of the pagan world as well. And, Christ's suggested purpose on earth, namely to die for our sins, defeat the Devil and to be the judge of mankind at the end of times, also resembles the tenets found within pagan world. All this, not to mention all the others pagan elements within our faith: the virgin birth, water baptism, the life giving cross, prayers for the dead, miracles of healing, the order of the angelic world, the concepts of heaven and hell, etc...

Yet, on the other hand, we also have a man called Jesus of Nazareth, also according to the Gospels, making statements to the effect that he was indeed the long awaited savior of the J-ews, born from the lineage of the Hebrew King David.

What we have here is a major theological paradox, a serious dilemma within traditional Christianity that would naturally require an army of apologists and "spinners" to reconcile.

In essence, we have two characters in the Gospels - a Godman called Christ and a rabbi called Jesus of Nazareth. Upon closer look, these two characters cannot be made to fit the same mold, and they cannot fit no matter how hard our church theologians try. Attempting to combine these two diametrically opposed concepts - a Godman and the J-ewish Messiah - within Judaism is absurd to say the least. You can have one, or the other, but one can't have both existing in union within Judaism. It's simply not Judaic.

It is obvious to me that Christ's Hellenized J-ewish followers wanted to convert the J-ews from their primitive belief system. And simple logic here would suggest that they may have manipulated certain texts towards that purpose, enter the most influential Gospel character, Paul of Tarsus. However, their attempts simply did not work in the longterm. J-ewish orthodoxy, J-ewish society, naturally did not accept Christ as their Messiah. And look at those people who did accept Christ: Romans, Greeks, Assryians, Armenians, Iranians, Copts, Ethiopians and Hellenized, in other words, assimilated - J-ews.

What I am trying to convey here is that Christianity in particular (and Judaism in general) is not derived from or originated by the Hebrews. Christianity, in essence, is the continuation, albeit through J-ewish eyes, of a faith that existed within Asia Minor and Mesopotamia, the birth place of mankind, centuries prior to Christ's birth. And, as I have already noted above, the nomadic J-ews obtained their faith in Babylon during their captivity there during the sixth century BC at a time when Babylon was the epicenter of world and human civilization.

I have highlighted quite a few core theological tenants within Christianity that are exclusively non-Judaic in nature and origin. Bear in mind that even if only one of the highlighted pagan elements exists within Jesus of Nazareth, his entire Messianic facade crumbles. For one not to see this one must be blind spiritually.

On that note, I would also like to say: The truest essence of our ancient faith system only exists within Christian Orthodoxy today, although I still have a problem with their acceptance of the so-called Old Testament. Nonetheless, of all the existing religions on earth, Christian Orthodox rituals, philosophies, theologies and ethics come the closest to our ancient belief system.

As for myself, culturally I am a Christian Orthodox. I am also a child of the Armenian Apostolic Church. Spiritually, however, I guess one can call me a - heretic. I am a "Christian," in the sense that I am a follower of Christ, but I reject any connection that is said to exits be between my Christ and the J-ewish Messiah, between my Triune God and Yahweh, between Judaic ethnics and Christian ethnics.

The Armenian nation converted to Christianity from Zoroastrianism in 301 AD and became the first Christian state within the world. Armenian history and ethnic identity is closely intertwined with Christianity. Having voluntarily served within the Armenian Apostolic Church, I have noticed that much of our church rituals are directly derived from Zoroastrianism and earlier native beliefs. To me and to most Armenians throughout history, Christ's message and his nature was a very familiar concept and one that found a permanent home within Armenian society. Thus, I have never felt compelled to go into another religion in search of a so-called "truth" and/or belonging. Nevertheless. the main area where I respectfully deviate from my Church is my refusal to spiritually accept the Old Testament as a main source or liturgical prerequisite for my belief in Christ.

My suggestion to all those who reject my spiritual convictions: Please read all the materials posted in this thread. I am going to periodically post more materials in support of my particular line of belief. Read the materials with an open mind and objectivity and most of all meditate on it. I was also once a traditionalists and I also looked upon all "heretics" as demons out to destroy the Judeo-Christian Jesus.

I also want to emphasize here that I am in no way suggesting that our national church has to be tampered with. Regardless of the theological debates that may exist, our Church, as it exists, has been a bulwork of Armenian identity and has gallantly helped in preserving our national heritage. I look at our church as our national treasure. Nevertheless, as I have outlined above, my personal spiritual convictions differ a bit from the official doctrines canonized by mortal men some sixteen hundred years ago.

I do not know if any of what I am stating here makes any sense to the reader or if I answered any questions the reader may have had. This is a very complex topic, one which I am still in the process of learning. And I doubt if I will ever complete the learning process within my lifetime. In all reality, as all mortals, I do not know who or what God is. I don't know where he lives, I don't know his true nature. And I do not know who or what Christ was. I don't know why he was born in Palestine, or what he wants from mankind. I don't know the true answers to any of these question other than what I am told by the J-ewish authors found within the Gospels.

However, I know for certain that there is an all powerful creator God in existence. I know for certain that the world, at least the civilized world, was populated from out of Asia Minor, specifically from our sacred highlands. I know for certain that there is a anti-God known as Satan, a demon who is dark, destructive and hateful. I also realize that mankind is in essence stuck between these two diametrically opposed natures within the universe. I also know for certain that the Godman known as Christ to us existed within many ancient cultures at different time periods. And I suspect that this Godman Christ's last manifestation occurred in Palestine, where he preached good deeds, worked miracles and died for our sins only to rise again from the dead - as he had done within various other ancient societies.

God does exist, has always existed, will always exist. Being that we are mere mortals living in our awfully limited physical realities, we will never fully comprehend our universal creator. We must, nonetheless, as children seek or pursue his life giving divine light. And I believe Christ to be the divine light of the world, only through him we can obtain everlasting life.


Well, enough of my Sunday sermon for now.


Go, in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost.


Amen


Armenian

[Armenian]

Re: Non-Judaic Nature of Christ

A lot of the material above appears quite unorthodox to me.

Axel, let's debate the elements, the core beliefs of our faith. But before we do that I ask you to please familiarize yourself with the contents of the posted materials.