Non-Judaic Nature of Christ

[Yeznik]

Re: Non-Judaic Nature of Christ

I'm glad someone here, besides Axel, is taking me to task. Like I said previously, for the sake of convenience I would like to be proven wrong in my thesis.

Ok, here is some information from my studies.

Part 1
First, we must look at the Armenian interaction with the city state of Palestine. The Armenians were well populated in that region before the birth of the Savior in which I would reference Tigran the Great ruling that region, the Armenians were present in Palestine during the time when Jesus and were actually a part of His following, in which I would reference to the 3 Magi and the story of King Abgar, and the Armenians were present at Pentecost, reference Tertullians comments on the book of Acts. When it comes down to the historic reality we would have to see what is more convincing if I was an illiterate pagan peasant, witnessing the Resurrection, Pentecost, and the Apostles working miracles such as raising the dead in the name of Christ, would be far more convincing to follow Christ and His Apostles rather than any xxxish, Zoroastrian or Buddhist literature.
So the first part of the error is that you are approaching your thesis from the view of a post-modern thinker, mainly thinking everyone is just as literate as yourself and that we should base our entire understanding of Christianity off of a book.
Part 2
This section is would state is the complexity of the issue. Why would Christians accept the books from of a religion that crucified the Savior and drove Christians to be destroyed as a part of their core belief? The entire concept sounds backwards, taking books that promote your own destruction as the core of your belief.
The biggest misconception of OT is that all the OT books are the exact canon and interpretation used by the xxxs. The xxxish canon of books was established around the year 70 AD, which is nearly 30 years after the Resurrection, which denotes a major change in their religion.
Secondly, in the Gospels we see two kinds of xxxs those who reject Christ and later crucify Him and those that follow Him and later become Christian. So how come the xxxs were split on Christ? I mean how come the same religion can have two exact and opposing sides in regards to Christ? The only conclusion that I have come up with is the interpretation of Scripture, some interpreted Scripture as Christ as the Savior, and others by their interpretation of Scripture saw Christ as a blasphemer, so this means there is was not a clear consensus of what the xxxs believed and what has remained today of Judaism are the people who rejected Christ.
I see that you are siding, to some degree, with those who reject Christ, but instead of you rejecting Christ, you are rejecting the books from the side you agree with.
Now you mention:
“I once heard a Rabbi state - “you [Christians] have stolen our watch and for two thousand years have been telling us what time it is.”
Big deal, if they knew how to tell time then we wouldn’t have “stolen” their watch. So I would say to the Rabbi quit wining. Second of all, this Rabbi is under the misconception that they invented time rather than God. And believe or not, by Gods Grace, someone, somewhere in sooner or later in history would have invented the watch.

I would say that I am confused about your position by your previous statements.

In all reality, as all mortals, I do not know who or what God is. I don't know where he lives, I don't know his true nature. And I do not know who or what Christ was. I don't know why he was born in Palestine, or what he wants from mankind. I don't know the true answers to any of these question other than what I am told by the J-ewish authors found within the Gospels.

And now state:

Nevertheless, what if I told you that my 'revelation,' pardon the pun, has actually gotten me closer to God?

Ok. I am not questioning that your “revelation” has brought you closer to God. I am asking how, spiritually.

What if I told you I actually understand Christ now more than I ever have in the past?

Ok. How?

God for me is now truly a universal God, a creator of all things good.

So God before wasn’t universal and limited? Ok, how can you believe that God wasn’t universal, do you mean He wasn’t for everyone? Also please clarify the second part of your statement; you didn’t believe God created all things good? Is it possible you didn’t have a solid understanding of the Faith?

Besides, are you saying that belief in traditional Christianity is supposed make one "feel" like they are getting closer to God? Is "feeling" the mere importance of it all?

Orthodox teaching would say a true servant of God is a completely dispassionate man.

If so, then there are many billions of non-Christians on earth who also "feel" close to a god as well. I am not referring to mere feelings here, I am trying to reveal the obvious fact that the God in the Gospels is not the tribal god of the Torah/Tanakh/Talmud.
Yes, I reject the bloodthirsty, jealous and contradictory tribal deity called Yahweh - a god who, according to his "chosen" people, is said to have full control over the "devil" and makes the devil exist only because it wants to see if it can fool mankind into sin and eventual death. The OT god is not our God, that realization to me is as clear as light.

In my opinion you have the wrong interpretation of Scripture if you accept the xxxish interpretation then become a xxx, if you accept the Christian interpretation then continue on your journey. There is an old saying, you can’t have your cake and eat it to. My suggestion, pick a side and stick with it, that’s all. Struggles like this may tend affect a persons spiritual life.

I also want to emphasize here that I am in no way suggesting that our national church has to be tampered with.

I ask you all to wake up from your "Pauline" derived Nicaean sanctioned theological formula.

Statements like this leaves me confused, one point you make is that we shouldn’t tamper with the Church, then you make a point that I should wake up from my “Pauline” theological formula. I am going to make a spiritual point regarding your statement. The Church is not limited to a building, a bunch of priests or bishops. The Church also includes the Saints, the Martyrs and us. As a Christians we believe that the Holy Spirit dwells in us, making each one of us a spiritual church. So I have to ask myself, if I “wake up” from what I have been taught, wouldn’t that also be tampering with the Church? At one point or another something will give.
Or maybe are we just chewing intellectual bubble gum?

Yes, I agree. We have to deal with what history has dealt us. Culturally, we must accept and nurture the Armenian Apostolic Church. There is no other option at this point. However, as souls with independent will we should also be expected to seek the truth, to seek God.

I agree, but when seeking the truth there cannot be two opposing views to be considered valid, if such is the case then, truth either becomes completely subjective and loses its objective and universal meaning, or truth really doesn’t exist.

I have utmost reverence towards our church forefathers. Yes, they are the sources for spiritual guidance. But how does that change any of what I am stating?

Well, the Church Fathers and Saints refer to the OT when teaching, but yet you reject the OT, so help me understand what you are trying to state, do you believe what in what they taught as well, using the OT to derive true Christian doctrine, if so then why reject the OT?

Judging from your reply I gather you are not challenging my core thesis that Christ has no connections to the Old Testament.

To some degree I am. From my studies I believe God is not a proprietary God for a specific. Meaning He is just for the xxx, the Armenian, or any other race or nation in the world that has “special status” about them. Christ died for everyone, so now, everyone is special and in that context, to an Armenian, Jesus is Armenian, to an Egyptian Jesus is Egyptian. I learned from a priest who once said, man is the only creature God dwells in, and man is the only creation that longs to be with God. From the beginning of time man longed to be with God, regardless of race or nationality, there are great commonalities in the ancient religions, again longing to be with God. From ancient cross worshipper from Armenia to Ireland, from ancient mother like Goddess, water purification ceremonies, fasting rituals, in the end they all point to Christ and it’s a matter of what we do with the Gospel now. I have mentioned to people on occasion that the Armenian Church contains some of the greatest treasures of Christianity, but that doesn’t mean we should change the Church into a museum.

This realization has nothing to do with "spiritual guidance."

I understand seeing Christian elements in other religions. But there is a difference stating that a certain religion had similar principles and concepts to Christianity, I would agree with that. But to state the OT be removed because it has absolutely no contributing value to Christianity and replace them with other books is wishful thinking at best.

I think Christ's Gospels by themselves are sufficient for spiritual guidance. I would also say Buddhism and Zoroastrianism are sufficient for spiritual guidance. Having said that, the Torah/Tanakh/Talmud actually get in the way of my spiritual guidance.

Please clarify, you state that your realization has nothing to do with spiritual guidance but yet you claim non-Christian texts are sufficient for Christian spiritual guidance?

I see you have had an absence of several years from this board. What brought you here? How were you informed of this conversation?

I visit this forum once in a while, I just don’t post. I saw an interesting topic and wanted to be a part of the discussion.

[Armenian]

Re: Non-Judaic Nature of Christ

And also racist. How can a god be racist?? How can a god be so subjective? How can people not question this? In Christian sources I haven't seen yet 'advices' or obligations regarding this matter such as this maturbation thing and other carnal affaires (in detailes) You must have been reading some J.ewish or Muslum texts (sources); since they are crammed with do's and don't's regarding carnal affaires, and such things (in detailes).

Complaints about Christianity are primarily due to Semitic elements adopted within it.

The sacred scriptures of Islam and Judaism (and some aspects of Christianity, by the way of the so-called Judeo-Christian tradition) are essentially childish books comprised of dos and donts. These Semitic traditions are very dogmatic and narrow, as a result making the very notion of God narrow and inflexible as well. The deity of Islam and Judaism is confined to strict rules, a far cry from the nature of a universal creator God. The core belief system of Christianity, like its predecessors Buddhism and Zoroastrianism, is based primarily on philosophies, egalitarian ethics and theological mysteries - Աստվածաբանական խորհուրդներ. The Christian God is truly boundless in nature and incomprehensible to mankind, as it should be. By nature, Christianity happens to be a complex belief system where human spirituality plays a fundamental role. And the pure form of Christianity is not bound to rules and regulations, it is open to interpretation and is thus quite flexibility.

When according to the Gospels the apostles asked Christ which are the most important 'commandments' to uphold, Christ answered by more-or-less stating: the most important commandments are to love God and to love humanity. This comment is profound in its universality, simplicity and spirituality. When an individual truly loves God and truly loves humanity - all the written 'commandments' of Judaism or Islam would be considered unessential.

This aforementioned factor is the fundamental reason why throughout history Christian societies worldwide have generally been more advanced and more progressive than their primitive contemporary faiths.

[Lucin]

Re: Non-Judaic Nature of Christ

I reject the bloodthirsty, jealous and contradictory tribal deity called Yahweh - a god who, according to his "chosen" people, is said to have full control over the "devil" and makes the devil exist only because it wants to see if it can fool mankind into sin and eventual death.

And also racist. How can a god be racist?? How can a god be so subjective? How can people not question this?

I believe in testable theories that are able to predict things. A claim such as "don't xxxxxxxxxx or you'll go to hell" is not a "testable" statement so I have no reason to believe or disbelieve it. Such statements are entirely useless in my life.

In Christian sources I haven't seen yet 'advices' or obligations regarding this matter such as this maturbation thing and other carnal affaires ( in detailes) You must have been reading some J.ewish or Muslum texts ( sources); since they are crammed with do's and don't's regarding carnal affaires, and such things ( in detailes).

Now that you bring up Mohammad (pbuh), actually I have to say at least he never claimed to have super powers like Jesus. I appreciate a lot of things Jesus has said in how one should live, but this whole ordeal about spirits, and eternal afterlife, and coming back from the dead etc is just fictional rediculousness to me

Actually, this is what makes Him utterly different.

[Illuminator]

Re: Non-Judaic Nature of Christ

Some human beings are also retarded, while others are not.

Most board members would agree that you're skating on thin ice here

[Sip]

Re: Non-Judaic Nature of Christ

[B][COLOR="Red"]Some human being are simply in tuned to seeing or feeling the spiritual world while others are simply not.

Some human beings are also retarded, while others are not.

[Armenian]

Re: Non-Judaic Nature of Christ

ZEITGEIST, The Movie - Official Release - Full Film: http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...95115331&hl=en

First time I am seeing this film. In my opinion, very well made, well researched and well delivered. However, I reject their atheistic premise regarding religions in Part I. The "solartheology myth" they claim is simply man's realization or understanding of the spirit world that exists. In a sense, this is where the line gets drawn between faith and non-faith. Some naturally come to the conclusion that divine beings or a spiritual world must exist, yet others will say no way - show me. Some human being are simply in tuned to seeing or feeling the spiritual world while others are simply not. Nevertheless, the section in the film regarding religion does have research value. But like I said, its only problem is its inherent atheistic perspective.

[Armenian]

Re: Non-Judaic Nature of Christ

How do all your studies spiritually enlighten your life? Does this bring you closer to God or further from Him?

I'm glad someone here, besides Axel, is taking me to task. Like I said previously, for the sake of convenience I would like to be proven wrong in my thesis.

Nevertheless, what if I told you that my 'revelation,' pardon the pun, has actually gotten me closer to God? What if I told you I actually understand Christ now more than I ever have in the past? God for me is now truly a universal God, a creator of all things good. Besides, are you saying that belief in traditional Christianity is supposed make one "feel" like they are getting closer to God? Is "feeling" the mere importance of it all? If so, then there are many billions of non-Christians on earth who also "feel" close to a god as well. I am not referring to mere feelings here, I am trying to reveal the obvious fact that the God in the Gospels is not the tribal god of the Torah/Tanakh/Talmud. Yes, I reject the bloodthirsty, jealous and contradictory tribal deity called Yahweh - a god who, according to his "chosen" people, is said to have full control over the "devil" and makes the devil exist only because it wants to see if it can fool mankind into sin and eventual death. The OT god is not our God, that realization to me is as clear as light.

I ask you all to wake up from your "Pauline" derived Nicaean sanctioned theological formula.

I understand that you don’t believe in the OT books and that you see Christianity in the Avesta, but the fact of the matter is that those books are there and they are not going anywhere.

Yes, I agree. We have to deal with what history has dealt us. Culturally, we must accept and nurture the Armenian Apostolic Church. There is no other option at this point. However, as souls with independent will we should also be expected to seek the truth, to seek God.

I have a slight concern regarding your statements regarding the Church Fathers and the Saints I hope you understand that their primary objective is the bring spiritual guidance, and when you are “challenging” them that you recognize your statements are as comparative historical assessments and not matters for spiritual guidance.

I have utmost reverence towards our church forefathers. Yes, they are the sources for spiritual guidance. But how does that change any of what I am stating?

For example there are parallels between Christ and Mher and Buddha, but no such example of a person or that stereotype existed in the OT, this is just an assessment not grounds for spiritual guidance.

Judging from your reply I gather you are not challenging my core thesis that Christ has no connections to the Old Testament. This realization has nothing to do with "spiritual guidance." I think Christ's Gospels by themselves are sufficient for spiritual guidance. I would also say Buddhism and Zoroastrianism are sufficient for spiritual guidance. Having said that, the Torah/Tanakh/Talmud actually get in the way of my spiritual guidance.

I see you have had an absence of several years from this board. What brought you here? How were you informed of this conversation?

[Yeznik]

Re: Non-Judaic Nature of Christ

How do all your studies spiritually enlighten your life? Does this bring you closer to God or further from Him? I understand that you don’t believe in the OT books and that you see Christianity in the Avesta, but the fact of the matter is that those books are there and they are not going anywhere.

I have a slight concern regarding your statements regarding the Church Fathers and the Saints I hope you understand that their primary objective is the bring spiritual guidance, and when you are “challenging” them that you recognize your statements are as comparative historical assessments and not matters for spiritual guidance. For example there are parallels between Christ and Mher and Buddha, but no such example of a person or that stereotype existed in the OT, this is just an assessment not grounds for spiritual guidance.

[Sip]

Re: Non-Judaic Nature of Christ

Listen Armenian, it is entirely irrelevant to me as to what you "allow" me or "disallow me". She asked me a question about faith, and I answered. It's a public forum so if you don't like certain opinions, I "allow" you to go somewhere and make a private blog and babble as much as you want.

[Armenian]

Re: Non-Judaic Nature of Christ

I believe in testable theories that are able to predict things. A claim such as "don't masturbate or you'll go to hell"

Listen Sip, I allow you to "masturbate" as much as you like (I don't think any serious theologian would say you will go to hell for it), but please don't turn this thread into a debate regarding whether or not God exists. As far as I'm concerned, not believing in God requires immensely more blind faith that believing in God. Let's leave it at that.