A New Book For Reading?

[Stark Evade]

Then that must include the priests and the pious up until about the 18th or 19th century.

[XxgoeyxX]

So I was reading St. Augustine and I realized how he mentions how much he wasn’t really good at Greek. Well then after reading my text book for my Bible class, I came across something that said because St. Augustine was not good at Greek he read the Latin Translations of Romans 5:12 “to mean that the sin of Adam was a prototype which caused others to sin.” The text also said, “Augustine’s interpretation gave rise to the doctrine known as ‘original sin’. That was very interesting because almost everyone believes and says that all subsequent humans inherit sin after Adam and Eve.
But in Paul’s original Greek, it seems as though Paul understood Adams sin to be an archetype. And the reason why death became apart of human life was because all people sinned. In other words, sin is humanity’s first and most persistent copycat crime.

I really do like Augustine. But did the poor guy do that much damage? Everyone blames Adam and Eve for our sins, but we all fail to realize that we are just as much at fault as they were, because we continue to sin.

[sleuth]

So I was reading St. Augustine and I realized how he mentions how much he wasn’t really good at Greek. Well then after reading my text book for my Bible class, I came across something that said because St. Augustine was not good at Greek he read the Latin Translations of Romans 5:12 “to mean that the sin of Adam was a prototype which caused others to sin.” The text also said, “Augustine’s interpretation gave rise to the doctrine known as ‘original sin’. That was very interesting because almost everyone believes and says that all subsequent humans inherit sin after Adam and Eve.
But in Paul’s original Greek, it seems as though Paul understood Adams sin to be an archetype. And the reason why death became apart of human life was because all people sinned. In other words, sin is humanity’s first and most persistent copycat crime.

I really do like Augustine. But did the poor guy do that much damage? Everyone blames Adam and Eve for our sins, but we all fail to realize that we are just as much at fault as they were, because we continue to sin.

Ok.According to St. Augustine's doctrine of original sin mankind inherit sin from Adam and Eve. (which means even new born child is a sinner)
"Sin came into the world through one man, and death came through sin, and so death spread to all because all have sinned."(roman 5;12)

But we do know from revelation that adam had received original hollinies and justice.If it's so, how does the doctrine of original sin work?? What happens to babies who die??There is something missing.

In few words i disagree with augustin's interperatation of original sin.It's full of contradictions.

Do u have any information about Pelagius (he was opposed by augustine).What he thought about this subject?

[XxgoeyxX]

Actually I could not find anything in the text book. So I looked at Confessions to see if Augustine said anything about Pelagius.

And I dont agree with St. Augustine either. I think it was a big mistake in translation. So far from reading the Bible and what I have gotten from it I believe no matter how much we or St. Augustine had this theological a double-talk this, we cannot change the fact that the whole concept is immoral and unjust. Punishing millions of people for the acts of one is irrational. I truely in my heart believe God would not make all man sinners even a new born baby because of two people. In Deut. 24:16, "Parents shall not be put to death for their children, nor shall children be put to death for their parents; only for their own crimes many perosons be put to death." And in Ezekiel 18:20 it says "the person who sins shall die. A child shall not suffer for the iniquity of a parent, nor a parent suffer for the iniquity of a child; the righteousiness of the righteous shall be his own, and the wickedness of the wiced be his own." and there are many others that state this.

So, now im thinking is Adam story really literal history? Even the Bible proves the concept false and the invention of mainly Paul. And that each individual is responsible only for their conduct, not that of others and certainly not Adam according to the Old Testament.

Actually my text book stated this" Genesis 1-11 seems to be tring to answer basic questions about why things are as they are." Then it goes on by stateing "given the current state of evidence, we simply cannot talk about history when discussing Genesis 1-11"


As for Pelagius well I found this: Pelagius writes: "Nor is there any reason why it is made difficult for us to do good other than that long habit of doing wrong which has infected us from childhood and corrupted us little by little over many years and ever after holds us in bondage and slavery to itself, so that it seems somehow to have acquired the force of nature (8:3)." So I think Pelagius believed Augustines meaing of original sin was not correct because all men sinned in Adam and thus inherit his guilt; human beings of their own free will simply imitate Adam and re-enact the fall in themselves.

I think Pelagius belief is closer to what Paul was saying then what Augustine thought Paul was stating.

Like I stated before I dont believe it was Adam or Eve's fault we sin. It is just that we continueing doing so and blame them for our own actions. In many ways we believe that and have been taught that way. Even I was taught that.

[Anonymouse]

Augustine invented the concept of Original Sin as we have it today. From the Encarta Multimedia Encyclopedia on Original Sin:

Original Sin, in Christian theology, the universal sinfulness of the human race, traditionally ascribed to the first sin committed by Adam. Theologians advocating original sin argue that the concept is strongly implied by the apostle Paul, the apostle John, and even by Jesus himself. Late Jewish apocalyptic writings attribute the world's corruption to a prehistoric fall of Satan, the temptation of Adam and Eve, and the resulting disorder, disobedience, and pain of human history.

Saint Augustine appealed to the Pauline-apocalyptic understanding of the forgiveness of sin, but he also included the notion that sin is transmitted from generation to generation by the act of procreation. He took this idea from 2nd-century theologian Tertullian, who actually coined the phrase original sin. Medieval theologians retained the idea of original sin, and it was asserted by 16th-century Protestant reformers, primarily Martin Luther and John Calvin. Liberal Protestant theologians later developed an optimistic view of human nature incompatible with the idea of original sin.

From the Catholic Encyclopedia:

Original sin may be taken to mean: (1) the sin that Adam committed; (2) a consequence of this first sin, the hereditary stain with which we are born on account of our origin or descent from Adam.

From the earliest times the latter sense of the word was more common, as may be seen by St. Augustine's statement: "the deliberate sin of the first man is the cause of original sin" (De nupt. et concup., II, xxvi, 43). It is the hereditary stain that is dealt with here. As to the sin of Adam we have not to examine the circumstances in which it was committed nor make the exegesis of the third chapter of Genesis.

As for Pelagius, he disagreed with Augustine's original sin and was responsible for Pelagianism c. 5th century.

[sleuth]

Actually I could not find anything in the text book. So I looked at Confessions to see if Augustine said anything about Pelagius.

And I dont agree with St. Augustine either. I think it was a big mistake in translation. So far from reading the Bible and what I have gotten from it I believe no matter how much we or St. Augustine had this theological a double-talk this, we cannot change the fact that the whole concept is immoral and unjust. Punishing millions of people for the acts of one is irrational. I truely in my heart believe God would not make all man sinners even a new born baby because of two people. In Deut. 24:16, "Parents shall not be put to death for their children, nor shall children be put to death for their parents; only for their own crimes many perosons be put to death." And in Ezekiel 18:20 it says "the person who sins shall die. A child shall not suffer for the iniquity of a parent, nor a parent suffer for the iniquity of a child; the righteousiness of the righteous shall be his own, and the wickedness of the wiced be his own." and there are many others that state this.

So, now im thinking is Adam story really literal history? Even the Bible proves the concept false and the invention of mainly Paul. And that each individual is responsible only for their conduct, not that of others and certainly not Adam according to the Old Testament.

Actually my text book stated this" Genesis 1-11 seems to be tring to answer basic questions about why things are as they are." Then it goes on by stateing "given the current state of evidence, we simply cannot talk about history when discussing Genesis 1-11"


As for Pelagius well I found this: Pelagius writes: "Nor is there any reason why it is made difficult for us to do good other than that long habit of doing wrong which has infected us from childhood and corrupted us little by little over many years and ever after holds us in bondage and slavery to itself, so that it seems somehow to have acquired the force of nature (8:3)." So I think Pelagius believed Augustines meaing of original sin was not correct because all men sinned in Adam and thus inherit his guilt; human beings of their own free will simply imitate Adam and re-enact the fall in themselves.

I think Pelagius belief is closer to what Paul was saying then what Augustine thought Paul was stating.

Like I stated before I dont believe it was Adam or Eve's fault we sin. It is just that we continueing doing so and blame them for our own actions. In many ways we believe that and have been taught that way. Even I was taught that.

I reject Augustin's theology of original sin.It is not spiritual,healthy and productive.I prefer what orioginal christians believed that man's soul was created by God , the same essence in effect and capabilities of acting and living the way that god would be pleased with.
I wonder if pilagius was labelled as hereticos by chatolic church or not.The shamful historical fact of inquisition of chatolic church talks about how corrupted it was and still is.

[XxgoeyxX]

Well, I think the Catholic Church felt like he was a treat. But I really don’t know that much about it. And I don’t know any books that I can read to find out. Anony…do you know any?

Now, I’m kind off going of subject but I was thinking about it so I thought I share. I was reading more of Confessions and thought the reasons why Augustine talked about original sin so much was because of his own experiences, especially with sexuality. As hard as he tried, he found it to be depressingly difficult to avoid what he regarded as the worst sins - which, for him, primarily involved sex. The whole book is like he is telling God all his sins and asking for forgiveness so the book is called (Confessions). But I also got that he never saw himself as able to overcome his weaknesses. Instead saw his victories as resulting solely from a total abandonment of the self to God.

After reading this I thought, how come I always thought we could control ourselves to comment sin? If I put my mind to it then I can. But Augustine believes that every good thought, every good step we take is because God is doing that for us and we are not able to do that without Gods help. Is my way of thought the same as Augustine or do I not understand him?

Help Anon….

[Anonymouse]

Well, I think the Catholic Church felt like he was a treat. But I really don’t know that much about it. And I don’t know any books that I can read to find out. Anony…do you know any?

Now, I’m kind off going of subject but I was thinking about it so I thought I share. I was reading more of Confessions and thought the reasons why Augustine talked about original sin so much was because of his own experiences, especially with sexuality. As hard as he tried, he found it to be depressingly difficult to avoid what he regarded as the worst sins - which, for him, primarily involved sex. The whole book is like he is telling God all his sins and asking for forgiveness so the book is called (Confessions). But I also got that he never saw himself as able to overcome his weaknesses. Instead saw his victories as resulting solely from a total abandonment of the self to God.

After reading this I thought, how come I always thought we could control ourselves to comment sin? If I put my mind to it then I can. But Augustine believes that every good thought, every good step we take is because God is doing that for us and we are not able to do that without Gods help. Is my way of thought the same as Augustine or do I not understand him?

Help Anon….

You're definitely on the money, and I have to agree with Augustine that man's weakest point was sex, and all relativism eventually hovered on this one point. This is mans carnal and animal nature, and this is mans greatest weakness, for if we acknowledge man to be a spiritual being, then this is a great hurdle for it chains man to the material physical/ animal world, and to overcome that, is quite a step, as Augustine believes, and as do I.

[XxgoeyxX]

You're definitely on the money, and I have to agree with Augustine that man's weakest point was sex, and all relativism eventually hovered on this one point. This is mans carnal and animal nature, and this is mans greatest weakness, for if we acknowledge man to be a spiritual being, then this is a great hurdle for it chains man to the material physical/ animal world, and to overcome that, is quite a step, as Augustine believes, and as do I.

If it is a great weakness, is that why Augustine believes only with the help of God it can be stopped?

Confessions state that even from adolescence to age thirty-one Augustine wanted passionate desire and sensual pleasure. That he later avoided approval of such emotions even within the sanctity of holy union. In description of his emotions during that period of life, Augustine records that he was "in love with love," he wanted to show his peers how he was even from the way he was dress. But when he grew older and was searching for truth and knowledge, his sexual habits turned his life into a contradiction. In Confessions he recalls, "on the one side of my life I pursued…the vanity of stage shows and intemperate lusts; on the other side I was striving to be made clean of all this same filth.” Its funny how human beings work. We know its wrong but still do it anyway.

Now what I thought was interesting is that in 1 Corinthians 7:9, Paul advises the unmarried that it is better to marry and avoid burning with passion, than to remain single and possibly sin in that state. His advice in this case communicates that passion within the bonds of marriage is acceptable in the sight of God, whereas Augustine viewed all sexual passion as sin. Then Genesis 2:24 states, "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh." Therefore, Augustine's view of sex within marriage is clearly a reaction to his former life of sensuality. Augustine still struggles with passion and desire and called all of it "lust" even within the bonds of holy union. The events described in his autobiography serve as the basis for his later beliefs about the nature of the fallen will and God's original intent for sex.

But I still think we can stop ourselves…maybe I’m a girl that’s why. I don’t know what its like to be a man and to have that weakness. But I believe he can be stopped.

[Anonymouse]

If it is a great weakness, is that why Augustine believes only with the help of God it can be stopped?

Confessions state that even from adolescence to age thirty-one Augustine wanted passionate desire and sensual pleasure. That he later avoided approval of such emotions even within the sanctity of holy union. In description of his emotions during that period of life, Augustine records that he was "in love with love," he wanted to show his peers how he was even from the way he was dress. But when he grew older and was searching for truth and knowledge, his sexual habits turned his life into a contradiction. In Confessions he recalls, "on the one side of my life I pursued…the vanity of stage shows and intemperate lusts; on the other side I was striving to be made clean of all this same filth.” Its funny how human beings work. We know its wrong but still do it anyway.

Now what I thought was interesting is that in 1 Corinthians 7:9, Paul advises the unmarried that it is better to marry and avoid burning with passion, than to remain single and possibly sin in that state. His advice in this case communicates that passion within the bonds of marriage is acceptable in the sight of God, whereas Augustine viewed all sexual passion as sin. Then Genesis 2:24 states, "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh." Therefore, Augustine's view of sex within marriage is clearly a reaction to his former life of sensuality. Augustine still struggles with passion and desire and called all of it "lust" even within the bonds of holy union. The events described in his autobiography serve as the basis for his later beliefs about the nature of the fallen will and God's original intent for sex.

But I still think we can stop ourselves…maybe I’m a girl that’s why. I don’t know what its like to be a man and to have that weakness. But I believe he can be stopped.

I believe Augustine not only meant it in the sense that we act out these things, but our nature itself, our thoughts. Because it is from thoughts that actions begin, and who here can deny what deep carnal thoughts pervede in the annals of our minds and what fantasies or kinky desires each one holds? That is I believe more in line of what he was trying to convey.