EU-Turkey: A Full Membership Or A "Privileged Partnership?"

[bell-the-cat]

Just click the below link and please tell me that how can you accuse people who built this monument dated 1228 as barbarians without culture, nomad from steppes, etc.
http://whc.unesco.org/en/list/358

Ironically, a building that is actually full of Armenian architectural features, and was probably built by Armenian masons.

[bezjian]

You may be right that tax burden was a incentive to convert to Islam but since 1071 to 1923 Turks did not threatened Christians by death to convert to Islam. If it was so, then today all of you would be Muslim. So it is an unjust claim.

this is tricky. if you are arguing that turks rarely came up to armenians and said, "convert to islam or we will kill you", perhaps you are right, although there are stories like this from the 1915-23 period. however, the more common occurrence was that in massacres, entire families might be killed save for a few survivors, who were then taken in by turkish families and raised as muslims. so it makes little difference to me when you look at the big picture.

i never tried to say turks have no culture. i am personally familiar with turkish culture because one side of my family comes from turkey. i have been there and stayed in the homes of turks, close friends of my grandparents. they are kind people who always treated us as if we were of the same family. in my cd collection i have several recordings of contemporary musicians playing ottoman turkish music, and i enjoy it no less than any purely armenian music i have because one, this was the music of the society that armenians lived in for many centuries, and two, i don't consider this music to belong to any one ethnic group, but instead to all the ethnic groups that made up ottoman society. i really couldn't care less what people say about this because to me this music belongs to the same musical world that armenian music does and has a thousand times more feeling and depth to it than the garbage that is popular in the west and that ear-splitting russian pop-influenced music they listen to in armenia. i encourage everyone interested in music to check out this article:

The Contributions of the National Minorities to Ottoman Music

although travelling to turkey was a mixed bag of feelings, overall i enjoyed it. the reason is simply that i like places with history, and travelling around istanbul one can not escape the thousands of years of history all around you. it overwhelms the senses. the narrow streets, views of the city from the bosphorus, kapali carsi, people's faces, the sounds, the tastes, the way the mosques look when they are lit up at night - for someone who grew up in the u.s. it's a different world. you wonder, what would it be like to stand at this exact spot in the 19th century, 15th c., 12th c., 9th c., 5th c., etc.

at the same time you can not escape thoughts of what you know happened in the past and everything that was lost. that an entire nation with a recorded history of 3000 years simply vanished from the interior of turkey after living on the same land is too much to fathom. what is 90 years compared to 3000? unless turkey tries to destroy armenia again, there will always be armenians and there will always be people who speak armenian. therefore there will always be pride in our history and consequently armenian eyes will forever look longingly at turkey. even in istanbul, armenians left their mark all over the city - i assume you are aware of the balian family, even mimar sinan is thought to be of armenian origin.

i'm sure there are many websites like this on the web but looking at these will give you an idea of what i am talking about:

http://armenianworld.mine.nu/pilgrimages/reliving.htm

http://www.efkere.com

[bell-the-cat]

i'm sure there are many websites like this on the web but looking at these will give you an idea of what i am talking about:

http://armenianworld.mine.nu/pilgrimages/reliving.htm

[/url]

Thanks, either I've missed this site before - or it has got much bigger since I last found it. Seems I'm mentioned briefly. (I'm the "student from Europe who had hitched a ride with us that day" - but I didn't take the photo, it was too dark).

[winoman]

Bezjian - very nice post (and thanks for the site links - most interesting)...

Karakitip - Are you aware that Ataturk desperatly wished to prove that Turks were Caucasian (white) people? Yes - he set up the Turkish Historical Society (in the late 1920s/early 1930s?) in part for this purpose. He sposored and encouraged all sorts of truly kooky research efforts to prove the Turks as the origins of nearly all peoples and cultures on Earth. I have to say this is very telling concerning his and Turkish inferiority issues. (I agree with your points concerning Turks as a mix though - and I find all this sort of racial thing to be quite silly in general...)

Ataturk also established the Turkish Linguistic Society shorty after establishing the Turkish Historical Society. With them he created a version of Turkish which attempted to remove all foreign (mostly Arabic and Persian) influences on the language. He even wrote up a speech in the new language - not sure if he ever gave it - but his advisors informed him that no one could understand what he was saying. So he basically reverted back to the foreign words and just simplyfied the grammer and such. Whats funny is the comical way that the Turkish language today incorporates Turkish versions of English and other words. No examples come to mind at the moment - but I'm sure you could offer us up some.

Ataturk was a brilliant man - but you know what they say - absolute power just drives some people nuts...something like that. I've also heard that Micheal Jackson based much of his recent scandolous behaviors on Ataturk's relations with his adopted children...know anything about that? Though I don't suppose Kemal called Raki "Jesus Juice" do you think? Again...absolute, god-like power...well you and Micheal Jackson understand...

[karakitap]

this is tricky. if you are arguing that turks rarely came up to armenians and said, "convert to islam or we will kill you", perhaps you are right, although there are stories like this from the 1915-23 period. however, the more common occurrence was that in massacres, entire families might be killed save for a few survivors, who were then taken in by turkish families and raised as muslims. so it makes little difference to me when you look at the big picture.

I know that there are such crimes happened at 1915, even at my family we had a Aunt Ziynet, who were originally Armenian, but raised at ours, become Muslim and took name Ziynet. (I don't know her Armenian name) She was one of the most respectful elder at our family and everybody was listening her. She married with a Turk, have children and they have children, too(my father's cousins) One of her grandchild became diplomat at Turkish foreign ministery now. I agree that it makes no difference after 1915, when everything is totally collapsed.

i never tried to say turks have no culture. i am personally familiar with turkish culture because one side of my family comes from turkey. i have been there and stayed in the homes of turks, close friends of my grandparents. they are kind people who always treated us as if we were of the same family. in my cd collection i have several recordings of contemporary musicians playing ottoman turkish music, and i enjoy it no less than any purely armenian music i have because one, this was the music of the society that armenians lived in for many centuries, and two, i don't consider this music to belong to any one ethnic group, but instead to all the ethnic groups that made up ottoman society. i really couldn't care less what people say about this because to me this music belongs to the same musical world that armenian music does and has a thousand times more feeling and depth to it than the garbage that is popular in the west and that ear-splitting russian pop-influenced music they listen to in armenia. i encourage everyone interested in music to check out this article:

The Contributions of the National Minorities to Ottoman Music

Well as a person who interest Ottoman music (which we wrongly say as Classical Turkish music) I know that a lot of Armenian composers had contributed to this music. (Bimen Sen, Tatyos Efendi, Hampartzum Limonciyan (who developed one of the first notation system of Ottoman music) and many more...
I have a CD of Nisan Calgiciyan, a contemporary composer, and his music belongs to what we call as Turkish classical music.
Also your prays at church with maqams have almost no difference with Turkish music system. In fact it is the music that we developed together with Turks, Greeks, Armenians and Jews. About "garbage music" don't worry it is not because of genocide, Turks in Turkey also listens the same garbage. Same problems.

although travelling to turkey was a mixed bag of feelings, overall i enjoyed it. the reason is simply that i like places with history, and travelling around istanbul one can not escape the thousands of years of history all around you. it overwhelms the senses. the narrow streets, views of the city from the bosphorus, kapali carsi, people's faces, the sounds, the tastes, the way the mosques look when they are lit up at night - for someone who grew up in the u.s. it's a different world. you wonder, what would it be like to stand at this exact spot in the 19th century, 15th c., 12th c., 9th c., 5th c., etc.

at the same time you can not escape thoughts of what you know happened in the past and everything that was lost. that an entire nation with a recorded history of 3000 years simply vanished from the interior of turkey after living on the same land is too much to fathom. what is 90 years compared to 3000? unless turkey tries to destroy armenia again, there will always be armenians and there will always be people who speak armenian. therefore there will always be pride in our history and consequently armenian eyes will forever look longingly at turkey. even in istanbul, armenians left their mark all over the city - i assume you are aware of the balian family, even mimar sinan is thought to be of armenian origin.

i'm sure there are many websites like this on the web but looking at these will give you an idea of what i am talking about:

http://armenianworld.mine.nu/pilgrimages/reliving.htm

http://www.efkere.com

It is not hard to understand your feelings since you lost all your past suddenly and when you are gone, we lost our past, too. We lost all that colorful society, our talented craftsman, tradesman, succesful people and Turkey became a narrow cultured place. When I click your link of Efkere and see the village with the big church I can better see how a colorful country has turned to modern Turkey. Youg generation is unaware of living together with Armenians buth the old generation miss you. I believe that most of the ordinary people were not responsible what you faced at 1915 and sorry for this. Nothing can bring the past and to say sorry is also meaningless, too.
BTW, where is your family originally from?

[karakitap]

Bezjian - very nice post (and thanks for the site links - most interesting)...

Karakitip - Are you aware that Ataturk desperatly wished to prove that Turks were Caucasian (white) people? Yes - he set up the Turkish Historical Society (in the late 1920s/early 1930s?) in part for this purpose. He sposored and encouraged all sorts of truly kooky research efforts to prove the Turks as the origins of nearly all peoples and cultures on Earth. I have to say this is very telling concerning his and Turkish inferiority issues. (I agree with your points concerning Turks as a mix though - and I find all this sort of racial thing to be quite silly in general...)

Ataturk also established the Turkish Linguistic Society shorty after establishing the Turkish Historical Society. With them he created a version of Turkish which attempted to remove all foreign (mostly Arabic and Persian) influences on the language. He even wrote up a speech in the new language - not sure if he ever gave it - but his advisors informed him that no one could understand what he was saying. So he basically reverted back to the foreign words and just simplyfied the grammer and such. Whats funny is the comical way that the Turkish language today incorporates Turkish versions of English and other words. No examples come to mind at the moment - but I'm sure you could offer us up some.

Ataturk was a brilliant man - but you know what they say - absolute power just drives some people nuts...something like that. I've also heard that Micheal Jackson based much of his recent scandolous behaviors on Ataturk's relations with his adopted children...know anything about that? Though I don't suppose Kemal called Raki "Jesus Juice" do you think? Again...absolute, god-like power...well you and Micheal Jackson understand...

You ar trying your best to insult Turks by comparing Ataturk with Michael Jackson, but these kind of cheap jokes doesn't work instead of making you cheaper. (I don't know if cheap is also used as idiom in English, too.)
Anyway, you are a boring person. Try better.

[karakitap]

[QUOTE=bezjian]i assume you are aware of the balian family, even mimar sinan is thought to be of armenian origin. QUOTE]
Of course I know Balyans. They were the chief architects of the Empire at 19th century who build Dolmabahce palace and clock tower, Ciragan Plalace, Beylerbeyi Palace, Ortakoy mosque, Dolmabahce mosque as I know.
About Mimar Sinan, well I heared something that he was originally from a Greek village at Kayseri, He borned as Greek and raised as Janissary when he was a child. But I am not sure about it.
In any case he is the genius architect both of Turkish and Islam art.

[karakitap]

Ironically, a building that is actually full of Armenian architectural features, and was probably built by Armenian masons.

sorry but this sounds a bit paranoid.

[winoman]

You ar trying your best to insult Turks by comparing Ataturk with Michael Jackson, but these kind of cheap jokes doesn't work instead of making you cheaper. (I don't know if cheap is also used as idiom in English, too.)
Anyway, you are a boring person. Try better.

No actually the comparisons are entirely valid...but at least Jackson has not been known to sign the execution papers for former compatriots whom he knew were not guilty of anything but perhaps questioning his dictatorial tendencies and application of "Emergency powers" - in some cases Kemal had Parlimentary deputies killed who were opposing his motions in the assembly and others were killed whom he thought might be able to pose a political threat to his dominant rule at some point in the future. But you know your Turkish (Kemalist) history do you not? I'm sure each and every one of these executions is fully explained and justified - at least in your textbooks - eh?

[bezjian]

Of course I know Balyans. They were the chief architects of the Empire at 19th century who build Dolmabahce palace and clock tower, Ciragan Plalace, Beylerbeyi Palace, Ortakoy mosque, Dolmabahce mosque as I know. About Mimar Sinan, well I heared something that he was originally from a Greek village at Kayseri, He borned as Greek and raised as Janissary when he was a child. But I am not sure about it. In any case he is the genius architect both of Turkish and Islam art.

here is an excerpt from an abstract for a paper delivered by lucy der manuelian, a highly respected architectural historian at tufts university, at a conference devoted to armenian constantinople at ucla a few years ago:

"But what is startling is that the most splendid architectural monuments--those that define the power and might of the Ottoman Empire--were built by Armenian architects. These Armenians, appointed as imperial architects and Chief Court Architects by the Ottoman sultans built those considered the most famous monuments of the empire. They include mosques and mosque complexes such as the Suleymaniye, considered by many as the supreme architectural monument of the Ottoman period, the Sehzade Mehmed Mosque, Mihrimah Mosque, Rustem Pasha Mosque and Selimiye Mosque in Edirne, all built in the 16th century by the architect Sinan. He was appointed the chief imperial architect by Suleyman the Magnificent and his two immediate successors, Selim II (1566-1574) and Murad III (1574-1595). Although Sinan is usually identified by authors as "an Ottoman architect" or as "a Christian forced by the Ottomans to serve in the Janissary corps," or sometimes as a Greek or "probably a Greek," he can be identified as an Armenian through a document in the imperial archives and other evidence. He is considered the greatest architect in Ottoman history, and sometimes referred to as the greatest architect who ever lived because of the huge number of structures he designed and built."

you can read the rest at:

http://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/history/centers/armenian/source111.html

as for music i am aware of those musicians' names. i have some recordings of ottoman-era music performed by people like kudsi erguner, goksel baktagir, derya turkan, etc. they are playing compositions by tatyos efendi, kemani sebuh, etc. i was not aware of calgiciyan but coskun sabah was born to armenian parents.

as for my family, one part came from kayseri, one part yozgat, and the other gurun. this last part was a merchant family that owned land in samsun, trabzon, erzerum, and batum. other members of this family were born in trabzon. they must have been a wealthy family b/c my great-grandfather attended robert college in istanbul, even though he was born in manchester, england around 1875.

what about yours? interesting story about your aunt ziynet.