EU-Turkey: A Full Membership Or A "Privileged Partnership?"

[karakitap]

BTW are you communicating each other? For example when Anonymouse feels uncomfortable does he call you? "Hey come on wini, Turk is offensing me, I need help!"
Also why don't you come to Turkey since it is the most important place in your poor lives? Be my guest.

[TomServo]

The Albanians are Muslim because of the Ottomans.

[winoman]

BTW are you communicating each other? For example when Anonymouse feels uncomfortable does he call you? "Hey come on wini, Turk is offensing me, I need help!"
Also why don't you come to Turkey since it is the most important place in your poor lives? Be my guest.

Yes - must be...(all of the above)

Well I am a North American - not a European...and I am quite proud of my Asian heritage...so there! I've actually been to Turkey several times - and likely to more places in Anatolia that you have ever been....

[bezjian]

now i see why it is that so many armenian women bleach their hair blond - they are trying to convince themselves and others that they are white europeans. you get the impression that with some of these people it is their greatest dream to be reincarnated as a blond, blue-eyed nordic.

i think the solution to this problem is to accept that some armenians view themselves as european, some as middle-eastern. i am in the second category, so please do not speak for me and tell me i am european when i have no desire to be european. i do not think armenians living in syria, iran, turkey, iraq, egypt, view themselves as european either. they are not cultural hermits in their countries, living in a bubble, they are fully a part of the cultural fabric of the societies they live in. the best evidence for this in my mind is situation of armenians in iraq since the american invasion. yes, there have been one or two bombings of armenian churches (in addition to those of other denominations) by the insurgents. but armenians have not been attacked in large numbers or especially targeted, despite the fact it is christians (americans, british) who are occupying and destroying the country and armenia is contributing personnel to the occupying powers. i would venture to say that the reason for this is that armenians are considered to be native to the near-east by the general population, and as citizens of the country, fellow sufferers of american/european and turkish colonialism. they never gave the authorities any problems and are generally liked in the country.

if you grew up in soviet armenia then you grew up in an empire dominated culturally by white people (russians). if you grew up in the u.s. you grew up in a country also dominated culturally by white people (anglo-saxons). unless you have visited any of the middle east countries, your entire perception of the middle east is informed by the prejudices and biases of white people (overwhelmingly negative). you live in countries which call themselves christian and promote ideas of judeo-christian civilization; being armenian you are christian, therefore you imagine that you belong to a race that is part of this artificial construct of judeo-christian civilization. but no amount of indoctrination can change certain facts of history.

armenians living in the u.s., europe, and the russian empire is a recent phenomenon. for the bulk of their history, when not independent armenians lived under roman, persian, byzantine, arab, and turkish empires, all empires of the ancient and modern near east. in the second century b.c. for example hannibal took refuge in armenia at the invitation of the armenian king artaxias after his defeat by the romans. we all know about the lands conquered by tigran the great. was he a white european from the north conquering the middle east? of course not and that's an absurd idea. armenian is an indo-european language you say? well, so are persian, pashtun, urdu, hindi, and sanskrit. nobody is going around claiming those people are european. armenians are christian you say? well you know what, christianity is not a european religion! read the bible from cover to cover and you will not encounter a single white european in the entire narrative. not a single event related in the bible takes place in europe. instead the events take place in what is now egypt, iraq, syria, jordan, israel, iran, turkey, etc. the existence of armenians is a reminder to the world of the true origins of christianity. that europeans and their descendents have been able to claim that christianity is a white religion is in my opinion the biggest act of cultural theft to have taken place in history. ask yourself the question, what would western civilization and european culture be without christianity? and yet christianity came from the middle east! linguists who are proponents of the anatolian-farming hypothesis of indo-european origins tell us that all the european languages (with a few exceptions) descend from a single language that was spoken in anatolia thousands of years ago. this means that the languages of the people who were living in what is western europe today were gradually replaced by languages spoken by people originating from anatolia who migrated into europe. it is also thought that these anatolian migrants introduced agriculture into europe, which means that europeans were hunter-gatherers until people from the middle east introduced farming to them. thus middle easterners in a sense gave europeans their language, agriculture, and their religion.

so instead of abetting this act of cultural appropriation, we should stand up to re-claim christianity from the bigots and barbarians from europe who have and continue to use it to conquer other peoples (native americans, africans, australians, the list goes on) and even lay waste to countries that gave rise to western civilization thousands of years ago. the u.s., a white country, has invaded and occupied iraq, the land of ancient mesopotamia, killing tens of thousands of that country's people, and treating their deaths as if they were roadkill. americans think they are there to bring "civilization" to iraq, and that they need to teach middle-easterners "western values". but how can they even think that when the earliest signs of a settled human civilization comes from iraq (mesopotamia)! the earliest of examples of writing come from there. the first law code was written there. agriculture is thought to have started there. abraham was born there. my question is, how could you be anything but proud to be from a part of the world that gave so much to the development of human civilization.

i'm afraid i side with karakitap on this one. it seems like the post-9/11 environment and patently obvious racist features of white societies (anglo-saxon, russian) have created an identity crisis for some armenians living in the west. to me it's not even a debate, all you have to do is listen to armenian music or sample armenian cuisine to know what part of the world we come from. but then again i am not like some people who desperately wish to distance themselves from anything oriental or middle-eastern.

[bell-the-cat]

The "Europe" which Red Brigade and rest of you are ambitiously try to feel yourself a part of it is the European nations who are shaped culturally with renaissance and reform, geographycally with Atlantic to Adriatic and ethnically nations consist of the combination of "civilised Romans" and "Barbar" Ostrogoths, Visigoths, Angles, Saxons, Lombards, Bourgons, Franks, Slavs, Friesians, etc. As a result your "Indo-European White Armenians doesn't include thid "privilidged society" both historically, culturally and geographycally. You lived a completely different historical experience than Europeans and you have no common values with them besides being Christian. But being Christian is not a sufficient reference since there are also other middle eastern Christians like Assyrians, Maronites, Keldanians, Nastourians, etc. who are completely Asian like you.

You are as ignorant of the histories of the peoples your race exterminated as you are ignorant of your own country's history.

[bell-the-cat]

. but then again i am not like some people who desperately wish to distance themselves from anything oriental or middle-eastern.

I think you may be misinterpreting things. They are perhaps not distancing themselves from anything oriental, but are merely distancing themselves from you.

[karakitap]

now i see why it is that so many armenian women bleach their hair blond - they are trying to convince themselves and others that they are white europeans. you get the impression that with some of these people it is their greatest dream to be reincarnated as a blond, blue-eyed nordic.

i think the solution to this problem is to accept that some armenians view themselves as european, some as middle-eastern. i am in the second category, so please do not speak for me and tell me i am european when i have no desire to be european. i do not think armenians living in syria, iran, turkey, iraq, egypt, view themselves as european either. they are not cultural hermits in their countries, living in a bubble, they are fully a part of the cultural fabric of the societies they live in. the best evidence for this in my mind is situation of armenians in iraq since the american invasion. yes, there have been one or two bombings of armenian churches (in addition to those of other denominations) by the insurgents. but armenians have not been attacked in large numbers or especially targeted, despite the fact it is christians (americans, british) who are occupying and destroying the country and armenia is contributing personnel to the occupying powers. i would venture to say that the reason for this is that armenians are considered to be native to the near-east by the general population, and as citizens of the country, fellow sufferers of american/european and turkish colonialism. they never gave the authorities any problems and are generally liked in the country.

if you grew up in soviet armenia then you grew up in an empire dominated culturally by white people (russians). if you grew up in the u.s. you grew up in a country also dominated culturally by white people (anglo-saxons). unless you have visited any of the middle east countries, your entire perception of the middle east is informed by the prejudices and biases of white people (overwhelmingly negative). you live in countries which call themselves christian and promote ideas of judeo-christian civilization; being armenian you are christian, therefore you imagine that you belong to a race that is part of this artificial construct of judeo-christian civilization. but no amount of indoctrination can change certain facts of history.

armenians living in the u.s., europe, and the russian empire is a recent phenomenon. for the bulk of their history, when not independent armenians lived under roman, persian, byzantine, arab, and turkish empires, all empires of the ancient and modern near east. in the second century b.c. for example hannibal took refuge in armenia at the invitation of the armenian king artaxias after his defeat by the romans. we all know about the lands conquered by tigran the great. was he a white european from the north conquering the middle east? of course not and that's an absurd idea. armenian is an indo-european language you say? well, so are persian, pashtun, urdu, hindi, and sanskrit. nobody is going around claiming those people are european. armenians are christian you say? well you know what, christianity is not a european religion! read the bible from cover to cover and you will not encounter a single white european in the entire narrative. not a single event related in the bible takes place in europe. instead the events take place in what is now egypt, iraq, syria, jordan, israel, iran, turkey, etc. the existence of armenians is a reminder to the world of the true origins of christianity. that europeans and their descendents have been able to claim that christianity is a white religion is in my opinion the biggest act of cultural theft to have taken place in history. ask yourself the question, what would western civilization and european culture be without christianity? and yet christianity came from the middle east! linguists who are proponents of the anatolian-farming hypothesis of indo-european origins tell us that all the european languages (with a few exceptions) descend from a single language that was spoken in anatolia thousands of years ago. this means that the languages of the people who were living in what is western europe today were gradually replaced by languages spoken by people originating from anatolia who migrated into europe. it is also thought that these anatolian migrants introduced agriculture into europe, which means that europeans were hunter-gatherers until people from the middle east introduced farming to them. thus middle easterners in a sense gave europeans their language, agriculture, and their religion.

so instead of abetting this act of cultural appropriation, we should stand up to re-claim christianity from the bigots and barbarians from europe who have and continue to use it to conquer other peoples (native americans, africans, australians, the list goes on) and even lay waste to countries that gave rise to western civilization thousands of years ago. the u.s., a white country, has invaded and occupied iraq, the land of ancient mesopotamia, killing tens of thousands of that country's people, and treating their deaths as if they were roadkill. americans think they are there to bring "civilization" to iraq, and that they need to teach middle-easterners "western values". but how can they even think that when the earliest signs of a settled human civilization comes from iraq (mesopotamia)! the earliest of examples of writing come from there. the first law code was written there. agriculture is thought to have started there. abraham was born there. my question is, how could you be anything but proud to be from a part of the world that gave so much to the development of human civilization.

i'm afraid i side with karakitap on this one. it seems like the post-9/11 environment and patently obvious racist features of white societies (anglo-saxon, russian) have created an identity crisis for some armenians living in the west. to me it's not even a debate, all you have to do is listen to armenian music or sample armenian cuisine to know what part of the world we come from. but then again i am not like some people who desperately wish to distance themselves from anything oriental or middle-eastern.

Well, it is nice to see that even for once a Turk and an Armenian agree. I agree that Armenians living in Turkey, Lebanon, Israel, Syria, and even in Armenia don't mostly have that kind of inferiority complex. And I can understand how Armenian diaspora who lives in western countries live under a secret racist pressure of living in a society where being white, western, etc. are exalted against "Orient" especially after 9/11. It is not easy to show an Armenian stance for Armenians who are slowly assimilated under those cultures.
We may say lots of reasons of this behaivour such as the devastating cultural effects of Hollywood, European centered human history, globalisation, etc. And we also have to admit that it is not only Armenians who suffer from this degeneration. In Turkey we also suffer from this as well. But what I observed from your western diaspora is not only a identity crisis. You unfortunately also adopt the secret racism and zenophobia of western world against easterns even you are originally eastern. This is the bad point.
I agree that middle eastern nations have started a "city life" thousands of years ago from Europe. And especially as Armenians who have a great cultural background in eastern world, you have to proud of your oriental identities.

[Anonymouse]

OK little mouse if you want to call yourself like this, here is the fact:
We are not talking about the geografically boundaries of Europe which includes countries like Ukraine, Moldovia, Belarussia and even parts of Kazakstan. The "Europe" which Red Brigade and rest of you are ambitiously try to feel yourself a part of it is the European nations who are shaped culturally with renaissance and reform, geographycally with Atlantic to Adriatic and ethnically nations consist of the combination of "civilised Romans" and "Barbar" Ostrogoths, Visigoths, Angles, Saxons, Lombards, Bourgons, Franks, Slavs, Friesians, etc. As a result your "Indo-European White Armenians doesn't include thid "privilidged society" both historically, culturally and geographycally. You lived a completely different historical experience than Europeans and you have no common values with them besides being Christian. But being Christian is not a sufficient reference since there are also other middle eastern Christians like Assyrians, Maronites, Keldanians, Nastourians, etc. who are completely Asian like you. They don't have this kind of claim and I'm sure that except your "diasporans confused with their identity" ordinary Armenians in the middle east don't have this kind of ambitious claims or inferioriy complexes, too.

You are missing the point Turkoglu. You are hung up on Europe as a non changing entity that is static in time. You need to let go of your preconceptions to understand what I am saying. I believe Red Brigade is trying to say that Armenians are Caucasian Indo Europeans, in which case they are similar to Europeans, phenotypically, and linguistically. "Asian" is another geographical term. No one is "Asian" permanantly. Turks were considered Asian by Europeans, and now they are desperately trying to be accepted into the EU. Your arguing is really not addressing what I raised. You dodge the issue and beat around the bush of the points I make. If you have nothing to say about how historic changes occur, and that historically the concept of "Europe" and 'Asia" have changed, then you do not have to feel like you have to say something in order to redeem yourself.

Furthermore, you claim that Nestorians, Assyrians, Keldanians etc, do not have an inferiority complex because they do not want to claim themselves as "European". Have you met every Assyrian, Keldanian, etc., to jump to that conclusion? Of course you have not, but for the purposes of having something to argue and try to inflame people on these boards you make up blanket statements. Furthermore your entire argument that Armenians claim to be European is based on what Red Brigade said. There are many Armenians who consider themselves Middle Eastern. In fact, Armenians will claim different things, some saying European, others saying Middle Eastern. Even maps are different. While some maps throw Armenia in Europe, others throw Armenia in the Middle East. The point being, Armenia is not in a desperate situation to try to validate itself by appealing to the EU to be "accepted" and part of the Europe Club, while Turkey is desperately trying to pretend it is "European" and a "democracy" while it continues its bloodlusting ways with the Kurds.

[karakitap]

You are missing the point Turkoglu. You are hung up on Europe as a non changing entity that is static in time. You need to let go of your preconceptions to understand what I am saying. I believe Red Brigade is trying to say that Armenians are Caucasian Indo Europeans, in which case they are similar to Europeans, phenotypically, and linguistically. "Asian" is another geographical term. No one is "Asian" permanantly. Turks were considered Asian by Europeans, and now they are desperately trying to be accepted into the EU. Your arguing is really not addressing what I raised. You dodge the issue and beat around the bush of the points I make. If you have nothing to say about how historic changes occur, and that historically the concept of "Europe" and 'Asia" have changed, then you do not have to feel like you have to say something in order to redeem yourself.

Furthermore, you claim that Nestorians, Assyrians, Keldanians etc, do not have an inferiority complex because they do not want to claim themselves as "European". Have you met every Assyrian, Keldanian, etc., to jump to that conclusion? Of course you have not, but for the purposes of having something to argue and try to inflame people on these boards you make up blanket statements. Furthermore your entire argument that Armenians claim to be European is based on what Red Brigade said. There are many Armenians who consider themselves Middle Eastern. In fact, Armenians will claim different things, some saying European, others saying Middle Eastern. Even maps are different. While some maps throw Armenia in Europe, others throw Armenia in the Middle East. The point being, Armenia is not in a desperate situation to try to validate itself by appealing to the EU to be "accepted" and part of the Europe Club, while Turkey is desperately trying to pretend it is "European" and a "democracy" while it continues its bloodlusting ways with the Kurds.

Again same inferiority complex. OK, so you are European because of Caucasia. So Bravo to you. Chechnians, Osetians, Dagıstanians, Circassians,Kurds, etc are European, too since they are also belong to your privilidged Indo-European group who live in Caucasia. So you feel yourself better now? Will you walk in the streets of Los Angeles with more self confidence now? Make you believe how you feel better, it is not my problem. You are the one who seems ridiculous and miserable.
About Turkey-EU-Armenia issue. Lets don't fool ourselves. All of us know that Armenia have a great great desire to be a member of EU but since they know that EU will accept their membership in no way that they don't apply for this. And again as I said before personally I am not so ambitious about Turkey's membership of EU because of the abovementioned reasons.

[Anonymouse]

Again same inferiority complex. OK, so you are European because of Caucasia. So Bravo to you. Chechnians, Osetians, Dagıstanians, Circassians,Kurds, etc are European, too since they are also belong to your privilidged Indo-European group who live in Caucasia. So you feel yourself better now? Will you walk in the streets of Los Angeles with more self confidence now? Make you believe how you feel better, it is not my problem. You are the one who seems ridiculous and miserable.

What is your point? It seems you are jealous that you don't speak an Indo European language, and are stuck with some Asiatic altaic nonsense. I think you have to reassess the inferiority complex. It's not what I believe Turkoglu, it's what it is. Armenians speak an Indo European language. Chechens do not. They speak a Caucasian language.

About Turkey-EU-Armenia issue. Lets don't fool ourselves. All of us know that Armenia have a great great desire to be a member of EU but since they know that EU will accept their membership in no way that they don't apply for this. And again as I said before personally I am not so ambitious about Turkey's membership of EU because of the abovementioned reasons.

What a wonderful job you are doing, as Turks always do, of painting the issue with lies. While Armenia may have aspirations into the EU, who do we constantly hear about in the news, whining to constantly have its piece of the pie in the EU? Turkey. Of course you are not ambitious to join the EU. The EU, at least in its effrontery doesn't support bloodlusting, which is much a part of Turkish history. Turkey claims a long history of bloodlusting, which now is with the Kurds.