Diversity In France!

[bell-the-cat]

Perhaps Siamanto will give us a discourse on the meaning of the phrase "France métropolitaine" - an understanding of that uniquely French concept might throw a lot more light on the flaws in the fundamental structures of French state ideology.

[Anonymouse]

And to show that these trends are not just in France, look at what is happening in Great Britain - majority non-white by 2100. I think you'll like that Steve, won't you?

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,6903,363750,00.html

[Anonymouse]

I'll see your "Diversity and Unity Build a Community" and raise you a

[Կարմիր Բ]

The French and the English should not whine much since they have pretty much raped the world by colonizing almost half of the world.I fail to see why some individuals here are whining like little girls regarding the black and arabs immigrants of France.

Every action in this world has a consequence.These are the consequences of their own very actions.Next time they will think twice before colonizing anyone.

As for mister Anonymouse, he should keep in mind that he is an immigrant himself before giving his insignificant opinions regarding immigrants of other nations.

I am afraid people like you (and our friend enger garmir biber who has the excuse of young age) fail to see reality as it is and instead attempt to redefine it through their own ideological prism so that it fits the abstract and purely intellectual vision they have concocted in their head this is quite typical of the "french" left btw.

First of all my son it is banak not biber.

Second, you are illiterate of history,probably a religious fundamentalist and certainly an ultranationalist since you fail to see, due to your dogmatic paranoia, that the very notion of ''nation-state'' in the modern sense was invented after the industrial revolution.

The ignorance of some people here is touching.

Above all i regret that i lost so much of my precious time to write this post in order to illuminate a bunch of insignificant dogmatists.

Fools they are and fools they shall remain.

[axel]

I suggest that you edit your post and remove the sentence starting with "First of all"...

You're not a bad guy in my view.

[Siamanto]

Siamanto,
I am afraid people like you (and our friend enger garmir biber who has the excuse of young age) fail to see reality as it is and instead attempt to redefine it through their own ideological prism so that it fits the abstract and purely intellectual vision they have concocted in their head this is quite typical of the "french" left btw

axel,
I hope that beyond your "verbiage" that you exthere is some substance. So, can you please clarify yourself and let us know - as you perceive it:
1- What is the "reality" that you have in mind
2- What is the "ideological prism" that is used to "redefine" the "reality"
3- What is the "abstract and intellectual vision" that you have in mind

Can it be that, in fact, the reality is that we have different "visions" of the "reality" and you simply have an issue with diversity? At least, it would be consistent with yourself.

Also, for the record, I am eclectic enough to use ideas from any school of thought; be it "leftist" or not. What can I say, I don't have issues with diversity!

with such an attitude you end up with totally nonsensical declarations such as that of former EU commissioner Emma Bonino: "notre identité, c'est notre avenir"
"Our identity is our future"
!!!!

Before I reply, can you please let us know how you interpret her statement and what makes it "nonsensical?" Again, can it be that "nonsensical" means "different" from your views?
I'm not familiar with the statement and the context where it was said. In fact, I see at least two different interpretations:
1- "Our identity is the basis of our future, so let us preserve it."
2- "What defines us is whatever our future is - or will be."
Probably, the first interpretation is how you perceive it; but I may be wrong.

France was not the artificial nation the republic made it into. it had a past, a religion, a culture. everyting was systematically leveled. complete tabula rasa. the french republic actually rests upon the negation and annihilation of french identity (and the EU project is just an extension of that)

Though grossly exagerated and dramatized, that is a banality that nobody contests. However
1- That is true of all modern Nations that do not exist in isolation. Are you suggesting isolationist policies?
2- Democracy had a more drastic "leveling" effect than cultural exchanges and migratory movements; shall we revert to pre-democratic forms of governance?
3- It is grossly exagerated that the French Identity has been - or is being drasticaly - negated or annihilated. That is a bit "demagoqique" and "politicard."
A journey across the different provinces would be enough; the countryside is the soul and substance of a culture and a national identity, specially for a country like France.
Even in a city like Paris, the French Identity is still more than alive - maybe somehow diluted - but still alive. "Identity Loss" - "hemoragie identitatire" - is a fact of life unless you isolate yourself from exchanges.
I find an isolationist of defensive "paranoia" a bit dangerous.

the sad thing is that we see the exact same forces at work in Armenia, of course, with a slightly different ideological make-up. and it seems there is nothing to do about it unless there is a rebirth of national sentiment coupled with a true spiritual renaissance. for, this war we have to fight from within, first and foremost.

Despite the fact that I read the news on a daily basis, I don't comment on such aspects of the Armenian Society because I have not lived there recently - actually, I have never lived there. Having lived in more than one country, I know how pretentious is to think that one can comment on such fundamental issues based on indirect - objective or not - information.
However, I - and my friends - have spent enough time analyzing and debating issues related to "Identity," "Identity Crisis" or "Identiity Loss" and , I don't share the excessive fear or "paranoia" of a dramatic Identity Loss that seems to worry you. I think that both the French and Armenian Cultures are rich enough to withstand the "shocks" caused by the exposure to "foreign" elements.

[Siamanto]

Did anybody deny that - fortunately - France, like many other European countries, believes in and has integrated Socialistic values.

France is not a Socialistic society -

Integrating socialistic values does not mean being a "Socialistic society." Too subtle for our Straw Man Maker?

it is a "bread and circus" society. Unlike other societies, the children of the working class stay working class and never rise, the middle class stay middle class and never rise or fall, the ruling class stay the ruling class generation after generation and never fall. The glue that sticks the edifice together is for everyone towards the bottom end of the pyramid to be subsidied and supported so that they have just enough for their station in life to be satisfied and not resort to riots and barricades and throwing cobblestones. French society is set up for it to always remain that way, since they remember the horrors of what it was like when society was entirely upset. Insert a rogue element into that cosy, smug arrangement, like a couple of million North Africans, and you are bound to have trouble.

So Anglo-Saxons continue to base their education on fairy tales...LOL just like Jurks! After all, militarist barbarians think alike.

[skhara]

As for mister Anonymouse, he should keep in mind that he is an immigrant himself before giving his insignificant opinions regarding immigrants of other nations.

Yes but the difference is that he isn't an Islamic or black thug who tries to subvert a nations character. But in fact seems well-educated as well as integrated.

[Siamanto]

So when someone disagrees with the ever omniscient Siamanto, he/she suffers from ignorance. How dare anyone! When did I ever state that somehow we should limit ourselves in our understanding? I only protested your poor and fallacious notion that somehow being in France, or having been to France was the prerequisite for discussing about France. I never claimed to have been there, nor to have a wise and all knowing outlook on France, but yet you have made this somehow the pinnacle of the whole discussion in order to have something to discuss.

Someone is ignorant when someone makes gratuitous and unfounded statements about a subject that he/she has no knowledge, understanding or exposure to.
It is true that you are relatively well read and intelligent, but maybe you should limit yourself to what you understand.
You can put it in any way you please, but the fact remains that - based on your previous cheap shots - you are totally ignorant about the French Society and its nature. All you have expressed so far is - in quality and essence - comparable to the gossips commonly expressed in the US.
I hope that you will find the courage within you to face the facts.

As far as my alleged cheap shots at France, that exists only in the ever imaginitive confines of your mind, which no doubt is in love with France. I do not have any dislike for France. Criticisms of your cherished place perhaps may be misconstrued as such. However, I do have an opinion and a dislike of the trends that I, as an individual have noticed, not just in France, but everywhere else. This has nothing to do with visiting to France, or disliking France. I did not necessarily have to have been there to express my views.

No, this thread is at least the third one that you have started during the last couple of months - and because I was not too active lately, I may have missed others. Also, the quality of the posts justify the expression of "cheap shots."
Please have the courage to be honest. Thanks.

How do you know that my understanding of socialism is somehow based on mono-party regimes, or conditioned by US obsession with socialism? In fact, you don't know that, you just assume that to have some illusory ammo to go by in this internet discussion. Just in that blob of nonsense you have managed to pile up so many assumptions about me, it's like an orgy of assumptions, and is laughable. Yet, you expect to be taken seriously all the while deriding me for somehow not making this more "enjoyable" or "constructive", due to my lack of "required exposure/knowledge".

You have expressed your opinions and understanding of Socialism on numerous occasions. I had enough occasions to read your posts during the last year or so - and, as we all know, that means many many posts.
Your views sound so narrowly focused on the Soviet Union experience, obsolete Marxist views and often reflect the narrowness of how Socialism is perceived - or misconceived - in the US.

I do not prescribe to the U.S. governments ideas of what are or are not proper, and what is defined as socialism. Clearly you do not know me and how much contempt I have for this government, and the ideological tendencies that pervade. But here we see a double standard, although you will not admit, yet you engage in the same thing you accuse me of. You accuse me of forming opinions without having full knowledge of the shades in between, yet you engage in precisely the same thing with me, placing me in a monolothic idea of what you deem to be conditioning and typical American not thinking for himself.

Who said you do? LOL You need to pay attention!

I'm sure travelling has it's benefits but that is not the issue here. You are creating an intellectual Berlin Wall around yourself and this discussion. In effect, you are engaging in a tactic that Fadix engaged in a while ago during the debates about the historicity of the Holocaust. During those discussions, he claimed that anyone who has not read Raul Hilberg's book was not qualified to engage in the discussion regarding the historicity of the Holocaust.

Similarly, here you are setting the bar at traveling. I do not need to travel or have previously engaged in travel, nor is that a prerequisite to allow someone to discuss something. Your self-absorbed and elitist approach is typical. It suggests that you, because you have traveled, are far better and beyond than those other plebians. Those that perhaps consider traveling as tourism, are somehow still not as high up there on the clouds with you, because they have chosen to engage in travel that is different from what you deem to be the proper travelling which will provide the "required exposure/knowledge". In other words, you assume that somehow through tourism people will not get "exposure/knowledge", or what you actually meant, the "required exposure/knowledge" which you deem to be sufficient, not whether they will get exposure or knowledge.

It's a different situation. In order to understand certain issues, such as the one discussed in this thread, one should have "on hands" experience. At least, enough understanding of the subject matter. Face it you have none, not even some! You have no understanding of the French mindset, culture or society!

Yes, I did state "Had France respected its homogeneity it would not be in this situation." In other words there was nothing about comparative points being discussed. I merely threw out an observation, nothing comparative. You squeezed that in for whatever reasons, perhaps just to show your intellectual candor. Anyone can look at France and walk in the streets of Paris and see that it won't be long before the French themselves are a minority. Ha! I'd give them 10 or 20 years. I do have relatives in Paris and Marseille and my aunt visited last year, as well as many friends. It's not like I am making these things up out of thin air, and you can even go into search mode and see that 40% of the current people in France are descended from these immigrant populations.

How can someone so arrogantly, confidently and repeatedly express such an ignorance? Please stop ridiculing yourself. You've probably never have been to Paris or France. Where do you get what you think is factual information?

And yet again you assume that somehow I rely on "gossip" in the "US", as if I consider the U.S. the bastion of information, or whatever you mean by the "U.S." Do you mean the U.S. media, or U.S. government, or French folks I've known in the U.S.? Which would it be Mr. Siamanto, inquisitive minds desire to know!

The bastion of "information????" What quality of information? The US media is so controlled and prejudiced when it's about other countries.
It was meant both in Government, media, society and Academia.

Yes, you need to pay attention . The point I was making, and which I already clarified, was the alleged cultural enrichment from dumping millions of foreign blood into your homeland, and which was strangely enough, the whole point of this thread. That is all. You don't have to like it, and it doesn't have to appease your egalitarian tendencies and bias, but that is the way it is.

LOL I will repost the same sequence that I have already posted; hoping that this time you will pay attention!

P.S. Yes, the Africans and the African Culture did enrich European and American Culture in a sensible manner.

That my friend is a matter of opinion.

That is a matter of knowledge. European Art - sculpture, painting - has been greatly enriched by African elements; contemporary classical music has incorporated African polyrhythmy and pop music has African roots etc. etc.s

[Anonymouse]

The French and the English should not whine much since they have pretty much raped the world by colonizing almost half of the world.I fail to see why some individuals here are whining like little girls regarding the black and arabs immigrants of France.

Every action in this world has a consequence.These are the consequences of their own very actions.Next time they will think twice before colonizing anyone.

As for mister Anonymouse, he should keep in mind that he is an immigrant himself before giving his insignificant opinions regarding immigrants of other nations.

I was beginning to wonder where the resident Marxist was. I never denied that I am an immigrant so that point is automatically moot.

As far as the rest of your rant, I am to guess you favor the miscegenation of our commonfolk with every genotype. You are trying to hard and forcing consequences out of nothing. The immigration patterns into France or England, have nothing to do with colonization. While they are mostly from lands that were former colonial possession, to imply there is a causality between colonization and immigration of these non whites into their lands is a fallacy.

First of all my son it is banak not biber.

Second, you are illiterate of history,probably a religious fundamentalist and certainly an ultranationalist since you fail to see, due to your dogmatic paranoia, that the very notion of ''nation-state'' in the modern sense was invented after the industrial revolution.

The ignorance of some people here is touching.

Above all i regret that i lost so much of my precious time to write this post in order to illuminate a bunch of insignificant dogmatists.

Fools they are and fools they shall remain.

The only thing modern about that is the state. Nations have always existed. The rest of your post is the same gutter filled trash that it usually is.