Strippers And You

[Anoush]

Re: Strippers And You

I believe every stripper, just like every drug dealer and criminal, made the decision to do what they're doing now. I don't feel sorry for them or the way they are treated. I don't care for the child molestors or why they became that way. I don't care if they had no other route to take in life and had to resort to robbing people.

In the end, these people all had a decision to make. Should I steal? Should I kill? Should I strip? They all chose their life and it's because of their decision that they're doing what they do. Every stripper does what she does because she made the choice to be there. She could have easily objected against it herself. She did not.

I agree... One-Way. A stripper or a prostitute are practically the same thing. They all made that choice to go to that route. An ethically and a morally brought up girl/woman who holds good and decent blood in her veins would rather die of hunger than take that route. A decent girl or woman would much much rather do menial jobs like cleaning houses or offices, babysitting and working hard and long hours than that.

[gmd]

Re: Strippers And You

Having visited the types of establishments in question... All I can say is why would a guy who is not desperate want a real relationship with one of these girls? And why would any of those girls want a relationship with the kind of guy that would go to a strip club? Could there be any trust in this relationship?

[Sako]

Re: Strippers And You

I don't want to go back and forth, Saco. I don't want to object.

Fact is, you don't even need to object. You just keep thinking I'm bringing strippers and criminals into the sunshine. I bet many of you didn't even read what I wrote completely, not taking 5 minutes to understand what I just said. The real fact is, you don't like them whatsoever, period. That's why it's a bit strange when you come and answer Vigilante's question because he wants to hook up with one. It's normal, this isn't a private thread, but all I wanted to do is for you to say one line properly not change your view, which I'm sure you still think to some extent.

I don't want to start another debate with the same topic being thrown around.

Actually, this was the last one, it's not like I have all the time in the world. I wrote whatever I was trying to say all this time in this final post, hope you read it instead of thinking I'm just blaming you.

QUOTE]I don't care for the child molestors or why they became that way.[/QUOTE]

That's a different topic, we're not talking about criminals. I hate child molestors more then you could ever imagine. I'd kill one if I saw him. Even after putting yourself into their shoes, there is no reason, WHATSOEVER, why they are justified even in teh slightest way. I don't feel sorry for them, even criminals don't.

I don't care if they had no other route to take in life and had to resort to robbing people.

You don't care. OK, bro.

In the end, these people all had a decision to make. Should I steal? Should I kill? Should I strip? They all chose their life and it's because of their decision that they're doing what they do.

Right .

Every stripper does what she does because she made the choice to be there. She could have easily objected against it herself. She did not.

Wrong . If you don't know why, one day you will, don't worry. You said a very powerful statement and I think you'll only get what I was saying all this time after you see it for yourself and feel it in someone elses eyes. You for some reason think everyone was in a terrible state in the beginning or that there wasn't any reason in many cases to fall in a terrible line of life. Anyways, good luck, all the same, just remember one thing, bro, don't always let your feelings get ahead of yourself. Think and feel at the same time. You were only thinking from one side and feeling the rest of the way. You didn't really even want to look at the other side or see what the story is about. I thought you did but realized you basically just wanted to read the cover of the book. That's fine with me !

I agree... One-Way. A stripper or a prostitute are practically the same thing. They all made that choice to go to that route.

Anoush Jan, I agree that millions do what they do because they chose to but ...

An ethically and a morally brought up girl/woman who holds good and decent blood in her veins would rather die of hunger than take that route.

...some don't get to even choose. Once they fall in that line, it's hard to come out. Some are so morally degraded, they are embarrassed and never come out. I know how the system works so all I'm saying is, DON'T JUDGE EVERYONE AS A WHOLE. Now, was there something complicated in that line? We have to judge people for who they are (the ones that deserve it) not what their caught up in. Damn, you guys really want to prove me wrong. That's what I've been saying all this time. You don't like them? Good for you, but don't think they were all dumb-asses who willingly just chose to. It disrespects so many people out there who could even be reading this right now. You have to be blind to not see what I'm saying.

Having visited the types of establishments in question... All I can say is why would a guy who is not desperate want a real relationship with one of these girls? And why would any of those girls want a relationship with the kind of guy that would go to a strip club? Could there be any trust in this relationship?

I doubt it, but there are VERY RARE cases. Anything is possible in this world, you come to realize soon.

[One-Way]

Re: Strippers And You

Wrong . If you don't know why, one day you will, don't worry. You said a very powerful statement and I think you'll only get what I was saying all this time after you see it for yourself and feel it in someone elses eyes. You for some reason think everyone was in a terrible state in the beginning or that there wasn't any reason in many cases to fall in a terrible line of life. Anyways, good luck, all the same, just remember one thing, bro, don't always let your feelings get ahead of yourself. Think and feel at the same time. You were only thinking from one side and feeling the rest of the way. You didn't really even want to look at the other side or see what the story is about. I thought you did but realized you basically just wanted to read the cover of the book. That's fine with me !

NOT WRONG. It's fact. They made the decision, Saco. They said to themselves, "I am going to strip to earn a living." They wake up every morning and go to work. The decision is theirs. They can quit, can't they? It's their choice.

I'm not thinking from one side or anything but you seem to ignore this fact.

[Sako]

Re: Strippers And You

*Sigh* you either don't get what I'm saying, or you just don't want to really badly. Let me say it in a more intermediate way, shall we?

THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO DON'T HAVE A CHOICE. THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO GET DRAGGED INTO ALL THAT xxxx EVEN AS A CHILD. WHEN YOU WERE DRINKING A BOTTLE OF MILK, THERE WERE KIDS BEING DRAGGED UNDER THE TABLE AND TO PICK UP A SPOON. THEY DIDN'T HAVE A xxxxING CHOICE. THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO DREAM OF HAVING A LIFE MORE THEN ME AND YOU AND THERE ARE PEOPLE OUT THERE THAT FELL ONTO THE WRONG PATH WITHOUT EVEN IMAGINING SOMETHING LIKE THAT WOULD HAPPEN, THEY WERE ORDINARY PEOPLE JUST LIKE ALL OF US. THERE ARE THINGS IN THIS WORLD THAT YOU COULDN'T IMAGINE IN YOUR WORST NIGHTMARES. SO STOP SAYING THAT THEY CAN QUIT, THAT THEY ALLLLLL HAVE A CHOICE BECAUSE THAT'S BULL xxxx. The fact is, so many CAN'T...EVEN THOUGH THEY WANT TO EVERYDAY. YOU DREAM OF CARS, MONEY, AND A HOT GIRLFRIEND WITH A PRETTY ASS ...... THEY DREAM EVERY NIGHT FOR FREEDOM. THERE ARE MILLLLLLIIIIOOOONNNSSS OF PEOPLE WHO NEVER SAY I'M GOING TO STRIP FOR MONEY OR GIVE PEOPLE ORALS BUT DO, NOT BECAUSE THEY CHOSE TO BUT BECAUSE THEY WERE FORCED TO. THOUSANDS ARE BLACKMAILED, THOUSANDS ARE THREATENED, THOUSANDS ARE STOLEN. IF YOU DON'T RECOGNIZE PEOPLE LIKE THIS THEN YOU’RE BLIND. DON’T THINK THAT EVERYONE IS EXACTLY THE WAY YOU SEE THEM. YOU HAVE NO IDEA. I'M NOT GOING TO SIT HERE AND TEACH YOU WHAT LIFE IS LIKE BUT IT'S NOT WHAT YOU THINK, THAT'S SOMETHING YOU SHOULD REMEMBER. ALL THIS TIME, I'VE BEEN SAYING ONE THING, YOU'VE BEEN SAYING ALMOST NOTHING. I GET YOUR POINT, YOU DON'T WANT TO GET MINE. YOU KEEP THINKING I’M ACCUSING YOU.

Now, I think that’s as simple as it can get. If you still don’t get what I mean, then I’ve been talking to a wall all this time and I wasted that much of my life. I’m offended bro if you object to any single word I just wrote up there. You’ll be offending and disrespecting millions of people out there more then once and I can’t respect that. You said I’m wrong, I hope you have a good reason why, better then the last reason at least. I already know what you’re going to say, let’s hope you say something better. You aren’t wrong bro, again, I know what you mean, but you don’t understand what I’m saying. This is the last time I’m trying and if you still don’t get, I guess you’ll just have to put your finger in the fire to understand that it’s hot.

[One-Way]

Re: Strippers And You

You want to win? You win.

[Anoush]

Re: Strippers And You

Dear Saco, there are very rare cases that some get caught up in the system and can't get out of it. Some Armenian women from Armenia I have read on the web who went to Dubai without knowing the actual facts; but once they found out being out there, they were extremely unhappy and unwilling to do that kind of job (being a prostitute); but they could not get out of it as they didn't have the money to travel and weren't able to leave the country or leave their controlling notorious bosses. But I think these are some rare sad cases. I am thinking that these sad cases are the ones that you are referring about.

[One-Way]

Re: Strippers And You

We're talking about the majority, Saco. Not rare cases. I was talking about America because that's where Vig is from.

[ArmSurvival]

Re: Strippers And You

Saco, while I agree with a lot of what you say, I think your examples apply to very extreme cases. Like when migrant workers are held hostage and made into sex slaves and whatnot, or people who are born into bondage. These people do not apply to our argument, since they didn't make a choice to become part of the sex industry-- they were literally forced with threat of bodily harm, and threatened with having their passport and all their identification destroyed.

I also understand what you're saying about how not every girl who is a stripper or a prostitute is like how we describe. I agree with you that there are some very very very rare exceptions, but the exceptions are so rare, that the general rule still reigns. Just because you can find exceptions to the rule, doesn't mean the rule doesn't exist. The general rule in America, in my opinion, is that girls working at stripclubs are more influenced by laziness (trying to make money the easy way by selling themselves) and the pervalence and glorification of what I'd call (for lack of a better term) attention w-hore culture. Turn on MTV, read a magazine, browse through Myspace or Facebook, its everywhere. If they do it for free, what's stopping them from making money from it? We can have a seperate discussion about the cause of this, but we cannot deny that this exists in America, and it influences the decisions many people make to join the sex industry, which is becoming more and more accepted, and more and more glorified. What these guys are saying to you (I think...correct me if I'm wrong guys) is that a fairly intelligent girl with a minnimal moral standard will not adhere to this part of the culture no matter what.

My parents came to this country to escape war in Lebanon. They weren't rich when they came here, and they lived with my mom's uncle and shared a tiny house with 8-10 family members, half of them slept on couches and on the floor. They had no greencard or anything, so they couldn't even get employed. My mom could have easily become a prostitute, racked up lots of money, spent more time with me growing up, and our situation would have been fixed fairly quickly. What did they do instead? They did menial jobs-- painting people's houses, cleaning, etc. Now we are in a very decent situation, but they had to bust their asses for decades. My mom never said "we can't get a job, we are dirt poor, I'm 'forced' to sell my body to provide for my family"-- no, they used their brains, busted their asses, and fixed the situation. There are many more examples around us and my parents are not unique in this regard. I'm sure you are familiar with many examples yourself.

But a lot of young people in America, brought up in this MTV culture, would not be clever enough, but more importantly, would not have the work ethic to do menial jobs and slowly work their way up to have their own business. And remember, people born here can actually get employed, they don't even have to do menial jobs. Thus, they have no excuse of not finding a job outside of the sex industry.

[Sako]

Re: Strippers And You

You want to win? You win.

OK, I was talking to a wall all this time and I guess my instinct was right, you couldn’t say anything better. This is all you understood? I’m disappointed.

We're talking about the majority, Saco. Not rare cases. I was talking about America because that's where Vig is from.

That’s funny? I never read the word majority till now in your posts. And believe it or not? I wasn’t talking about “rare cases”. The rare case was that girl who got married. Now THAT is rare and NOT what I’m talking about. You were talking about America but you were ignoring anything I was saying. I’m talking about the world, there’s almost no point in talking about America, its worse then those 3rd world countries nowadays. It’s all materialistic there now. There are no morals, or very few, left. I want you to understand what is rare and what isn’t.

Dear Saco, there are very rare cases that some get caught up in the system and can't get out of it. Some Armenian women from Armenia I have read on the web who went to Dubai without knowing the actual facts; but once they found out being out there, they were extremely unhappy and unwilling to do that kind of job (being a prostitute); but they could not get out of it as they didn't have the money to travel and weren't able to leave the country or leave their controlling notorious bosses. But I think these are some rare sad cases. I am thinking that these sad cases are the ones that you are referring about.

Anoush Jan, believe it or not, I wasn’t talking about Armenians and no, those aren’t the sad cases I was referring to. You have read more then experienced, that’s the problem. That’s the worst case that comes to your mind? I could tell you stories that could make your hair stand on end but it’s just pointless. I just want you to understand one thing along with One-Way, what I’m describing is becoming the majority and almost is in many, many countries I have personally been to and I almost know how they feel and when you don’t accept that fact, it’s almost like the same feeling we get when people don’t accept the Genocide like it never even happened. You guys haven’t seen worse yet and you already feel disgusted, what if you saw the truly disgusting sides of the ball, you wouldn’t know what to feel, your life would change completely. What you said is something I knew a very long time ago, that’s still called a choice though, many made the choice. And no, THOSE aren’t the sad cases I’m talking about. You haven’t seen what sad is yet and that’s why I’m not so critical. I’m talking about millions of people who DIDN’T CHOOSE. You can’t believe it because you can’t imagine that that many people are going through all that EVERY DAY. Nowadays, in many, many, many, countries, that has become the majority. Before, people chose to, that was the majority, now, it’s becoming the opposite. People like children nowadays, you know what that means? And just in case you’re wondering, those sad cases are also becoming very famous, not to mention, a grand majority. Millions of people fall under the control of bosses, that’s sad but not what I’m talking about. This isn’t about winning, this is about acknowledging and accepting. You guys are talking about minor details, I’m talking about a tremendous, if not a greater, majority. There are things people don’t want you to know, there things that would make you lose hope in life itself. Don’t underestimate anything in life and then you’ll see what the real world is like. If I really wanted to win, I wouldn’t waste my time here. I know what I’m talking about and so do millions of people out there, I just thought you guys might understand what I’m saying. I guess experience is never given freely no matter how hard you try.

Saco, while I agree with a lot of what you say, I think your examples apply to very extreme cases.

I hate to say this but it doesn’t, Arm. I’m talking about problems that have become everyday problems in countries. Before, they were extreme cases, now they are everyday cases. Leave America to the side right now, it would take much more to change it then many of the 3rd world countries. You guys don’t seem to get what I’m saying and I hope you never do. I was wrong to even try to explain anything here. I guess my heart has a way of throwing me into situations like this. I forgot how long it took me to realize many things and I guess you guys will just have to see it to believe it. Don’t feel guilty though when you do, some things you just really have to feel on your skin to understand, not everyone can understand without that, especially without trying. I asked you all to put your feet in someone else’s shoes but realize now that you didn’t even know whose shoes to put your feet in. It’s not the time for this conversation yet I guess.

These people do not apply to our argument, since they didn't make a choice to become part of the sex industry-- they were literally forced with threat of bodily harm, and threatened with having their passport and all their identification destroyed. I also understand what you're saying about how not every girl who is a stripper or a prostitute is like how we describe. I agree with you that there are some very very very rare exceptions, but the exceptions are so rare, that the general rule still reigns.

I wish those cases were rare although many of them aren’t even what I’m talking about. I respect what your family did, bro, it makes me proud to be able to talk to you and I ask you to send my own respects to your family just for that reason, if not many, many more. My family has been through a lot, as well. I’m glad you understood a few things I was trying to say, at least someone did, but using the word rare just indicates that there are only a few cases out there, if not none. I wish that was true, but it’s almost the opposite. The net even doesn’t tell you everything, if only it did. I agree with almost everything you said, and many of the sentences you wrote were the ones I was waiting to hear from One-Way. I agree with the MTV culture point and everything, I’ve lived, read, and breathed America for more then five years. My entire point was that you use the word rare. That’s like saying the deaths in the Genocide were rare. Your last paragraph is accepted thoroughly though, couldn’t have said it better and I’m personally disgusted. That’s not what I was talking about though. A sane person of course won’t jump into such an industry.

All the same, we understood each other and I know that if you all knew many of the things I knew, you would agree on the spot and completely understand what I was saying, that’s why I didn’t say all this from a critical point of view. If we understood each other and you disagreed with me, then I would be very critical. You’ll be fools to think I said ANYTHING from an enemy’s point of view though and I apologize if I offended any one of you or if I said anything in a manner that upset you and I hope you all never even have to know many of the things going on in the world. I don’t want to continue any longer and I wish you all the very, very best. Cheers, here’s to a brighter future.