"White People"

[ArmoBarbi]

Have any of you guys heard Armenians refering to some otars as "white people" as if we Armenians are not "white people"? Now, I take it by "white people" they mean the race. (correct me if I am wrong here) How do you feel about this?

I must say, I personally find it quite frustrating and annoying. I want to ask them what we are. Do they think we are in a different race? Are we special and get our own color??

[Thai-Samurai]

I've been trying to get a tan lately, but it hasn't changed anything.

[ArmenianKid]

alot of people. including some dumb armenians think we are from the middle east when we more closely resemble aryans. so they think they can call people white.i get called a camel jockey all the time in school so there are dumb people around the world lol.

[nunechka]

armobarbi, good point... and yes we are white, we are rather CAUCASIAN! which is known as white here in the US, but when people say "white people" i guess we are using the vocabulary of the US of A which is a compilation of languges and even some new forms of those languages... so we are repeating black, latinos, etc... why? because we actually arent like the "white people" here in the US, we are euro-mediteranian...

so thats all we are really doing, no labeling, just fitting in with society...

[ArmoBarbi]

It doesnt matter what the blacks and latinos think to call us. We should know better! Excluding ourselves from our own race is one dumb way of fitting in with a society as ethnically diverse as the one in this country. I do understand your rational, Nune, but I dont see any real justification for this stupidity.

[CatWoman]

THANK YOU! Great topic... I think what they mean by 'white' is an American (blonde hair/blue eyes, Irish/German origin). But yes we are white, I used to be very allergic to that but I got used to it :rolleyes:

However, one thing I don't understand is labeling brand names, like Volcom, Hurley, etc. as 'white' brands! Grrrr so annoying, or she dresses like a white girl, LOL! A while ago, I was at Macy's and this Armenian guy asked his gf or lady friend 'how about this' pointing to a Hurley sweater and she was like ewwww Hurley? that's for white people! hahaha so annoying. I wanted to offer them a ticket back home to Africa. :laugh:

[TigranJamharian]

"White people" in America is most times associated with the bland, ingrained anglo-saxon culture. If you have ever seen My Big Fat Greek Wedding i think it addresses this very well, there are the Greeks( who are so like us), the Armenians, Italians ... with the lively culture, big families, good food... and the bland boring "White people", the groom and his parents. But in the general sense of the word, Armenians are white, people refer to us as white people as they should. But i still understand what Armenians mean when they refer to white people.

[ArmoBarbi]

Yeah, I know that we ARE and I understand what they mean when they say "white people". I just had to see if anyone else was bothered by this.

I was once told (in high school) by a black girl that Im not white. When I said that I am she looked confused. lol

Another time (same high school) I was trapped in a bathroom stall by a group of black girls for being a "white girl". Go figure...

Cat, I would have loved to see you do that. lol

I havent really seen this in real life, but I see it online sometimes. I dont even bother bringing it up with these people. It seems to be hopeless. Thank goodness Michigan Armenians dont think this way!

[Crimson Glow]

:rolleyes: I've been told several times in the AC chat room that I listen to "white music", and that rap and hip hop is for Armenians/non-whites. White to them = "mainstream American", which for some reason, a lot of Armenians don't want to be associated with. Now I could understand this philosophy if it's because you're...."a true Armenian", but what these people are saying is that we should be thugs and niggas, not clean cut "whities". Well....in spite of the brilliance of such thoughts, I'm going to go ahead and elect to not give a rats ass about their ironic theories.

[Anonymouse]

Armenians are as white as anyone can get, minus the exceptions of some of the mixed ones who are most likely the ones to spout this bromide of Armenians being "non-white".

[winoman]

Hm - I've rarely ever met any actual "white" person outside of the occasional Albino...oh and there is Micheal Jackson of course...so I really don't understand this need to impose mass color blindness...Armenians are categorized as a Caucasian people - for what it is worth. Everyone should understand that these types of groupings are somewhat arbitrary and have largely been concocted as a matter of convienince to distinguish certain peoples with particualr (visible) genetic traits and to some (not insignificant) degree to recognize some cultural (largely language based) lineages. So we can easily put up examples of a particualr group that is categorized Caucasion alongside of one who is Semetic and they may have more (visible and even cultural) similarities then others who are grouped within these categories. So what does it all mean - and why should anyone really care? For the purposes of the kinds of arguments that I feel some people here and elsewhere like to make I think these distinctions mean very little. Trying to claim for instance that Armenians are somehow more related to the Danes then to most of the peoples of the Eastern Mediteranian or the Middle East is I think a bit absurd - genetically, culturally or what have you. But perhaps we are part Ethiopian or such eh? As many there are Coptic Christians...certainly we aren't related to any Muslims or such no? Whatever. Its all quite slilly. Obviously all peoples on Earth have both their unique traits and experiences as a people as well as those shared by a great number of others that they have come into contact with, dealt with, blended with and so on and so forth. Arguing that we are "white" is really much less interesting or telling then actually researching and discovering aspects of our specific history that can actually tell where we might have come from - genetically and culturally. And as opposed to trying to downplay how we might be different from others (people of the Levant/Western Asia etc) to prop up some sort of Aryan ideal about ourselves - we should be celebrating our unique mix and why it makes us special or worthwhile in itself - and more importantly just recognizing our cultural achievements and value...why do we need to grab onto the coatails of others for our self worth?

[Thai-Samurai]

Let's all just ask, "what's up w/ white people?"

[ArmenianKid]

i constier myself white. i know many dumb armenians including some of them in my family that dont think we are white. so let them dream lol

[winoman]

look kid - get your ass to a paint store - tell me exactly which shade of "white" you most resemble...then consider who to call a "dumb Armenian"

[ArmoBarbi]

Wino, your first post had little to do with the original topic. We are not arguing whether or not we are European or "white" or Caucasian blah blah...Everyone here, except you, knows that we are in fact as "white" as a Dane or a Frenchman or what have you.

In case you didnt notice, I specified what "white" means in this context and put it in quotation marks for a reason. You are taking a word and playing on it.

I do agree with your statements about the classification process and such, but that is not the issue at hand. Armenians are not WASPs, but neither are the French, Russians, Belgians, and many others who are here called "white". There are Armenians who think that belonging to the race means being WASPs....and Heaven forbid we become too WASPy.

What is this resentment of WASPiness?? We are no less Armenian by being normal "Caucasian" people. Its a crazy thought. Why wouldnt you be proud of being "white", winoman? I dont understand.

[Sip]

I'm not a color. I am Armenian.

[Anonymouse]

Why wouldnt you be proud of being "white", winoman? I dont understand.

Because winoman is a wine drinking human. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v96/Anonymouse/frown.gif

[winoman]

Well - lets just say I don't feel the need to glom onto any group to justify my identity. And this is what its really all about. You people are obviously insecure and in need of associating yourself with "white people" in order to feel superior to those who are "non-white" - pure and simple. And this is of course - laughable. First - as I briefly implyed - these are just lables - and they border on being meaningless. No matter what you say you aren't going to convince me (or any other person of Northern European descent) that you are closer to being danish then you are to being...lets say Turkish for instance (but of course we are closer even to Kurds/Persians and such...but still probably - at least arguably - more like [at least the sedentary] Arabs then we are to most Northern Europeans. Somehow I think its the Lavash bread that binds us....

I don't argue that we are labled as Caucasian (for what it is worth - and please understand the arbitrariness of this designation)...but this is merely a lable of dubious value - as is a claim of being just as "white" as a Frenchmen...so what - it means nothing...next you will be claiming the couissant...

[ArmoBarbi]

Funny. I already told you that I agree with your arguments about the classifications, etc. No need to beat a dead horse.

This is about Armenians classifying themselves as "non-white" for some purpose. If you cant explain your feelings on THIS matter, then you do my question no good. Unless you calling "us people" insecure was your way of sharing those feelings.

[winoman]

Why wouldnt you be proud of being "white", winoman? I dont understand.

Hm - "white pride" you say??

"Wake up White People!"

So - are you proud of being "white"? Why? What is it that you feel you have to claim? Can't we "claim" all human achievements just for being human (wine drinking or otherwise...)...and do you also claim and are you also proud of all the various atrocities and exploitation of "non-whites" that "whites" have managed over the last few milenia or so? Yeah - various Turks, Mongols, and other Asiatics have terrorized the world in their time and comited great atrocities...and maybe we could footnote the Japanese for some more recent wrongdoing...but pretty much other then a few of these marrauding groups - most of of the massively criminal type of actions (genocidal and large scale wars of conquest and associated misery, slavery, religeous persecution...etc etc) have been perpetrated by various folks considering themselves as "whites" ...so yeah - White power! eh?

[ArmoBarbi]

I'm not a color. I am Armenian.

Noone IS a color. Go back to my original post, and read the explanation like I told winoman.

[Anonymouse]

Winoman is not Armenian thus his opinion matters little.

[ArmoBarbi]

Hm - "white pride" you say??

"Wake up White People!"

So - are you proud of being "white"? Why? What is it that you feel you have to claim? Can't we "claim" all human achievements just for being human (wine drinking or otherwise...)...and do you also claim and are you also proud of all the various atrocities and exploitation of "non-whites" that "whites" have managed over the last few milenia or so? Yeah - various Turks, Mongols, and other Asiatics have terrorized the world in their time and comited great atrocities...and maybe we could footnote the Japanese for some more recent wrongdoing...but pretty much other then a few of these marrauding groups - most of of the massively criminal type of actions (genocidal and large scale wars of conquest and associated misery, slavery, religeous persecution...etc etc) have been perpetrated by various folks considering themselves as "whites" ...so yeah - White power! eh?

That isnt what I was suggesting and you know it. Are you not proud of being Armenian? Shouldnt we be proud for what/who we are without having a secret agenda like claiming some achievements? I am proud of being Armenian and European simply because its mine. When I am in an environment where it is not beneficial or even harmful for me to be this I am still proud.

[ArmoBarbi]

Winoman is not Armenian thus his opinion matters little.

...He isnt? I assumed he was. *blushes*

[winoman]

Well - just off the top of my head...Armenians are...well Armenian...a people of Anatolia and the Caucuses...who follow certain traditions/have lived primarily as a sedentary agricultural people with very strong familial bonds...known for their craftsmenship and artistry, their business acumen, their literary and scholarly achievements, their fierce independence and perseverence against great odds - who predominantly display certain physical characteristics (perhaps too numorous too mention at this time) - who share both physical and cultural similarities (incl foods, social practices, common/similar dances, games etc) with many of the peoples ranging from the Balkans, Eastern Medaterranean through Anatolia, the Caucuses and parts of Western Asia, and with those people who inhabit the region sometimes known as the Levant. Some Armenians are under the delusion that Hitler actually liked them and thought of them as his brothers - but most reasonble Armenians know that this is in fact untrue.

[winoman]

I am proud of being Armenian and European ...

Hm - just what part of Armenia - ancient and/or modern lies within the commonly accepted boundaries of Europe?

[winoman]

Winoman is not Armenian thus his opinion matters little.

I'll take (being) human over rodent anyday....

[Anonymouse]

I'll take (being) human over rodent anyday....

Well, if you must know, I am Armenian.

[ArmoBarbi]

Well - just off the top of my head...Armenians are...well Armenian...a people of Anatolia and the Caucuses...who follow certain traditions/have lived primarily as a sedentary agricultural people with very strong familial bonds...known for their craftsmenship and artistry, their business acumen, their literary and scholarly achievements, their fierce independence and perseverence against great odds - who predominantly display certain physical characteristics (perhaps too numorous too mention at this time) - who share both physical and cultural similarities (incl foods, social practices, common/similar dances, games etc) with many of the peoples ranging from the Balkans, Eastern Medaterranean through Anatolia, the Caucuses and parts of Western Asia, and with those people who inhabit the region sometimes known as the Levant. Some Armenians are under the delusion that Hitler actually liked them and thought of them as his brothers - but most reasonble Armenians know that this is in fact untrue.

We have a grasp of who we are - thanks.

Who cares what Hitler thought of us or anyone else?? Any REASONABLE Armenian in this day and age will not listen to Hitlers opinion when establishing their cultural identity. lol

...And winoman wins the Oscar for least helpful post ever! Well done http://www.my-smileys.de/smileys2/stricken.gif

[ArmoBarbi]

Hm - just what part of Armenia - ancient and/or modern lies within the commonly accepted boundaries of Europe?

The Caucusus is geograpically a part of the Russian Core which is considered Eastern Europe. It is west of the Ural Mts, which is the standard used by modern geogrophers when differentiating Eatern Europe from Asia. Take a class?

[CatWoman]

okay winoman, the topic is why are Armenians referring to others as 'white-people' in their conversations? When we are white as well?

You're getting too deep into the cultral aspects, that's not necessary. "We're close to turks and persians but are more like Arabs"? We're not discussing our culture here. Our 'culture' is Armenian yet our 'race' is white. German culture is different from lets say Greek culture, yet they're both considered white. I believe this is what Armobarbi meant.
I'll take (being) human over rodent anyday....
That doesn't say much about you, are there un-human humans in this world as well? :rolleyes:

[winoman]

Well doll - you were indicating your pride in being European...I figured I'd think of how to perhaps briefly describe who Armenains are - put some of the more or less important characteristics or identifiers...and the European connection didn't quite make the grade. In fact we share most things with the peoples around us - in the Caucuses, the Middle East, the Balkans and Anatolia (OK Duh) - and of these areas - only the Balkans fall within what is considered as Europe - and I would argue that aside from Orthodoxy (not universal in the Balkans but certainly a major factor) - we are (in general) more alike other Middle Easterners and such then we are like Europeans - if you look at our traditions and how we have lived and such...again its Lavash bread and Paklava - not coissants or danishes...

[ArmoBarbi]

okay winoman, the topic is why are Armenians referring to others as 'white-people' in their conversations? When we are white as well?

You're getting too deep into the cultral aspects, that's not necessary. "We're close to turks and persians but are more like Arabs"? We're not discussing our culture here. Our 'culture' is Armenian yet our 'race' is white. German culture is different from lets say Greek culture, yet they're both considered white. I believe this is what Armobarbi meant.

That doesn't say much about you, are there un-human humans in this world as well? :rolleyes:

You understood the thread exactly right.

I didnt even bother with the rodent thing. It makes no sense. lol

[ArmenianKid]

thank u! that is what i have been trying to get at.

[winoman]

"white" is not a "race" it is a color - and it does not describe most Armenians I know - outside of an occasional Albino and perhaps if its found that Micheal Jackson is the bastard son of Cher....

[ArmoBarbi]

Well doll - you were indicating your pride in being European...I figured I'd think of how to perhaps briefly describe who Armenains are - put some of the more or less important characteristics or identifiers...and the European connection didn't quite make the grade. In fact we share most things with the peoples around us - in the Caucuses, the Middle East, the Balkans and Anatolia (OK Duh) - and of these areas - only the Balkans fall within what is considered as Europe - and I would argue that aside from Orthodoxy (not universal in the Balkans but certainly a major factor) - we are (in general) more alike other Middle Easterners and such then we are like Europeans - if you look at our traditions and how we have lived and such...again its Lavash bread and Paklava - not coissants or danishes...

This argument is just silly, Im sorry. What does eating Lavash have to do with my RACE? There are many many many different cultures and ethnicities within our WHITE (lol) race.

You call the current classification system laughable yet you suggest going by food when differentiating between races? K.. http://www.my-smileys.de/smileys2/54.gif

[winoman]

I imagine that Armenians who refer to - I don't know - WASPy Americans? or otherwise ethnically indistinguishable Caucasian Americans - are trying to distinguish themselves the other direction - disasociation with the prevelant culture and group - to set themselves aprt as something different/special etc....I normally just call us the Armenian tribe.

[Anonymouse]

"white" is not a "race" it is a color - and it does not describe most Armenians I know - outside of an occasional Albino and perhaps if its found that Micheal Jackson is the bastard son of Cher....

I don't know which "Armenians" you associate with, but most Armenians are white, as opposed to the exceptions, being the mixed brown ones. My green eyes and fair skin are all I need. As far as you not being Armenian, probably never having been to Armenia, your opinion on this matters little. This thread asked for why Armenians call others white and not themselves. To this I have said that Armenians who consider themselves brownies are the ones that are mixed for any Armenian who is conscious of their whiteness would not do so. Occasionally it is prudent to stick to the topic as opposed to type on and on about essentially nothing, which you seem to do. What does someone who doesn't speak Armenian, is not Armenian, has probably never been to Armenia have anything to say on this topic? Absolutely nothing.

[ArmenianKid]

"white" is not a "race" it is a color - and it does not describe most Armenians I know - outside of an occasional Albino and perhaps if its found that Micheal Jackson is the bastard son of Cher....

by white we mean european. germans italians and english are all from europe but they are white. armenians are the same!

[winoman]

This argument is just silly, Im sorry. What does eating Lavash have to do with my RACE? There are many many many different cultures and ethnicities within our WHITE (lol) race.

You call the current classification system laughable yet you suggest going by food when differentiating between races? K.. http://www.my-smileys.de/smileys2/54.gif

Are you really discounting food as a measuring stick for culture? ....guess why its me who has the Anthropology degree and not yourself...

[ArmenianKid]

she said race not culture

[Anonymouse]

By the way, for the record, lavash is of Armenian origin.

[ArmoBarbi]

"white" is not a "race" it is a color - and it does not describe most Armenians I know - outside of an occasional Albino and perhaps if its found that Micheal Jackson is the bastard son of Cher....

As I have said already, "white" is the term used by the very people we were questioning. We know what "white" means in this country, as do you. Stop coming back to this meaningless point. It has nothing to do with the issue at hand.

[Anonymouse]

she said race not culture

Culture is a product of race because different peoples have created different cultures. There is no other way around it.

[ArmenianKid]

we all know what 'white' means i think he trys to start arguements

[ArmoBarbi]

Are you really discounting food as a measuring stick for culture? ....guess why its me who has the Anthropology degree and not yourself...

***As an Anthropologist, you should especially know the difference between RACE and CULTURE. I used the word "race", putting words into my mouth will not help you win an argument. Sorry :rolleyes:

Thats all I have to say about that. lol

[ArmoBarbi]

Culture is a product of race because different peoples have created different cultures. There is no other way around it.

While culture and race are connected terms, they are not interchangable in every given context.

[winoman]

Rat - there you go attempting to label people again - so now your definition of an Armenian is someone who has been there? Hardly...my family for generations back has lived in Anatolia - what need would they have to check in at the Yerevan Sheraton or such to prove that they were Armenian. And this is so typical of you - no argument other then ad homenim. And accusing me (or anyone else) of making off topic (or meaningless) posts in a thread? You of all people shouldn't be throwing those stones.

So you have green eyes and fair skin - OK - I guess that why they let you join the Hitler youth (oh I'm sorry - I assume that you dye your hair blond as well...now click those heels together smartly...)...however in my book you are not the typical Armenian. I've been around quite a few - and while there is certainly a range of looks - the archtype fits much more closely into the Middle Eastern type of genotype then it does European. I would argue that no one (not even the kid) would fail to pick out the average Armenian in a line up consisting of "germans italians and english" where in a similar line up of Persians, Iraqis and xxxs we might be quite a bit more challenged.

[winoman]

***As an Anthropologist, you should especially know the difference between RACE and CULTURE. I used the word "race", putting words into my mouth will not help you win an argument. Sorry :rolleyes:

Thats all I have to say about that. lol

For the most part - race is a meaningless designation - particualrly in reference to those - like ourselves who manifest characteristics that cross such somewhat arbitrary boundaries. Thus culture is what is left that has any meaning. And there is no such thing as "white culture" - excepting of course when one is making yoghurt...

[Anonymouse]

Rat - there you go attempting to label people again - so now your definition of an Armenian is someone who has been there? Hardly...my family for generations back has lived in Anatolia - what need would they have to check in at the Yerevan Sheraton or such to prove that they were Armenian. And this is so typical of you - no argument other then ad homenim. And accusing me (or anyone else) of making off topic (or meaningless) posts in a thread? You of all people shouldn't be throwing those stones.

So you have green eyes and fair skin - OK - I guess that why they let you join the Hitler youth (oh I'm sorry - I assume that you dye your hair blond as well...now click those heels together smartly...)...however in my book you are not the typical Armenian. I've been around quite a few - and while there is certainly a range of looks - the archtype fits much more closely into the Middle Eastern type of genotype then it does European. I would argue that no one (not even the kid) would fail to pick out the average Armenian in a line up consisting of "germans italians and english" where in a similar line up of Persians, Iraqis and xxxs we might be quite a bit more challenged.

No I did not say that the prerequisite for being Armenian means you have to be there. I only said that you have not been there, and from what I understood in the past, you weren't Armenian. Why are you taking that as an ad homenim.

And furthermore, I don't know about you but my "Armenian sensors" are very sharp and I have made and continue to make the sharpest distinctions between Armenians, Persians, and xxxs (Iraqis are not a people, they contian Arabs and Kurds, and other minorities since Iraq is simply a name given when Britain cut it up as such) since in my school all three of them flourish. Also, I can make the distinction between Chinese, Japanese, and Koreans. All this is because of me being "racially conscious".

[ArmenianKid]

Rat - there you go attempting to label people again - so now your definition of an Armenian is someone who has been there? Hardly...my family for generations back has lived in Anatolia - what need would they have to check in at the Yerevan Sheraton or such to prove that they were Armenian. And this is so typical of you - no argument other then ad homenim. And accusing me (or anyone else) of making off topic (or meaningless) posts in a thread? You of all people shouldn't be throwing those stones.

So you have green eyes and fair skin - OK - I guess that why they let you join the Hitler youth (oh I'm sorry - I assume that you dye your hair blond as well...now click those heels together smartly...)...however in my book you are not the typical Armenian. I've been around quite a few - and while there is certainly a range of looks - the archtype fits much more closely into the Middle Eastern type of genotype then it does European. I would argue that no one (not even the kid) would fail to pick out the average Armenian in a line up consisting of "germans italians and english" where in a similar line up of Persians, Iraqis and xxxs we might be quite a bit more challenged.

if u were smart u would know the hilter youth liked blond haired BLUE eyed boys lol.

[Anonymouse]

For the most part - race is a meaningless designation -

That is untrue.

particualrly in reference to those - like ourselves who manifest characteristics that cross such somewhat arbitrary boundaries. Thus culture is what is left that has any meaning. And there is no such thing as "white culture" - excepting of course when one is making yoghurt...

Culture is an outward manifestation of race. Culture is determined by race. It doesn't work the other way around. No one mentioned "white culture" for you to state that "there is no such thing as white culture". You are shadow boxing with an invisible enemy.

[winoman]

there is no such thing as white culture. Please define it if you really think that there is.

Race is a largely arbitrary categorization (for convienice sake that suffers in the smae way that all approximations do) that at best only works in an extreme macro sense as any attempt to break it down in comparison of individuals of different cultures tends to uncover more exceptions then support any particualr rule.

[winoman]

Race and the Human Genome

Researchers definitively trump the notion of race with DNA research.

"We're more alike than we are different" is a common catch phrase among those promoting the importance of celebrating diversity. It turns out that statement is 99.9 percent true.

Scientists studying the human genome announced recently that the their investigation of the human genome data concludes that the DNA of human beings is 99.9 percent alike, meaning that no matter what the color of our skin, when you look at humans on the genetic level, we are indistinguishable from one another.

This comes as good news to skeptics who worried that studies of the human genome would provide fuel to the fire of racists who contend that biological differences make some races inferior to others. Arguments about intelligence and genetic inferiority of minority groups have been widely adopted by white supremacist. The human genome research reinforces long-held beliefs that race has no biological foundation and is a notion of societal evolution. The American Anthropological Association recommended in 1997 that the U.S. government scrap the term "race" on official forms because it holds no "no scientific justification in human biology."

Harold P. Freeman, M.D., a researcher with Celera, the company who released the results of the study, wrote in a prologue to the protocol, "Race as used in the United States is a social and political construct derived from our nation's history. It has no basis in science. The biologic concept of race is now believed to be untenable."

Diversity itself played a key role in the genome project. The DNA of five subjects was utilized in the sequencing of the human genome, male and female volunteers who identified themselves as white, African-American, Latino and Chinese. Exactly whose genomes were used in the study shall remain a mystery, however. Members of Celera's Institutional Review Board (IRB), a board created to ensure the integrity of the study and its compliance with established U.S. guidelines governing research involving humans, agreed early on in the study that the identities of the participants must not be revealed. Even within the company itself, the identities of the volunteers are protected by a coding system.

Fast First Steps in a Long Journey

The potential implications of studies of the human genome are just beginning to be realized. Though scientists caution it will take "a long time" before studies of the human genome can lead to treatments-- even cures-- for diseases like diabetes, cancer, asthma and others, the research is moving along quickly and scientists are excited about the possibilities.

Researchers originally predicted that the discovery of the recently released findings would occur sometime in 2005. "These revelations arrive almost five years early from the original predictions of not having this information until 2005, and here we are. We have the first draft of our own book of life and we've read it from cover to cover, and we've discovered some pretty amazing surprises," Francis Collins of the National Human Genome Institute in Washington told CNN recently.

"We are that much closer [to fighting and curing diseases] having this foundation now in front of us," Collins said.

The effect of the findings on race and racism in contemporary society could be just as profound. As Dr. Freeman of Celera's IRB stated in his assessment of the importance of diversity in the study of the human genome:

"The power of science can be used to eliminate public perceptions of racial superiority and inferiority, which are the basis of racism itself. In this way, the mapping of the human genome could be pivotal in promoting the concept of one race, the human race."

Full details of the recent findings appear in the journal, Science which is featuring a special issue on the human genome this week with free access to all users.

[winoman]

And an appropriate comment (to our discussion) from an individual participating in a forum commenting on a website dedicated to the history of the "white race":

Honestly? This website is a load of hooey. Complete hooey. First of all, I have to immediately call into question any so-called scholarly effort to document the history of a "White race". What race would that be?
This "white race" has been around 35,000 years, eh? 35,000 years! The classic Chinese of today have not been dated to be even as old as 20,000 years (closer to about 17,000) and they have been determined to older than this "white race". Hence, I would find even a 20,000 year old "white race" to be wholly incredible.

Then this site talked about the genetic link of these "whites". What genetic link would that be? The same goes for the fact that they lumped the Masai in with the pygmies! Huh? Does it take a genius to see that these are clearly 2 separate peoples? A true genetic check would reveal that none of these peoples termed "white" are related to one another and none of them termed "black" are either. In fact, some termed "black" and some termed "white" are genetically closer to each other! What does that mean? It means there is no such thing as race: white, black or otherwise. It is an illusion! No one who knows what the hell they are talking about when it comes to anthropology would do anything but laugh when they read this garbage. To make it accurate on that count, this site should be called "The History of a Disparate Group of Peoples That We Have Arbitrarily Chosen to Call 'White' So That We Can Lump Ourselves In With Them and Regard Ourselves As Somehow Superior". There would be no other reason to make a site like this.

[Anonymouse]

there is no such thing as white culture. Please define it if you really think that there is.

Race is a largely arbitrary categorization (for convienice sake that suffers in the smae way that all approximations do) that at best only works in an extreme macro sense as any attempt to break it down in comparison of individuals of different cultures tends to uncover more exceptions then support any particualr rule.

Did I state there is white culture? In fact if you read what I wrote, it stated that no one stated there is such a thing, and you are shadow boxing with yourself.

As far as race. It is very real and very non-arbitrary. Please refer to the following link as this topic has been discussed to death.

http://forum.armenianclub.com/showthread.php?t=2328

[ArmoBarbi]

Thank you for insisting that my thread go off topic, winoman.

[nunechka]

i remember arguing with anony about this a long time ago, WINOMAN stop while you havent gone insane... anony is not a real human being, therefore he cant comprehend simple human argument pertaining to science, theory, logic, tc...

he is much younger then I am, he hasnt got a degree in any credible social science, and really has only read rubish... i argued the same point about race and culture and of couurse he has more time then i do, so i quit, or maybe we agreed to disagree...

anywho, about armenians: there are several scholars that say we are indo-european, and there are several who say we are mediteranian... i say we have influence from all corners of the world because of your strategic positioning on the globe...
FOOD does matter... for example, when the mangolians invaded the armenian plataeu, what did we get? we got what is known as WONTONS in asian culture, but we dont call it that, we call it something else, and then there were the italians with their ravioli, but according to prominent armenian cooks, the recipe is MUCH more like the Asian style, the look is like the italian... when russians got armenia to be in the soviet union, what did we get, more food, this time RUSSIAN food, and when i make that food, i dont know what to call it, and my relative from lebanon dont know what it is either, but they LOVE IT... all i know is that it is russian, but Armenianized...

race was theorized a long time ago, because we didnt have the resources to do the type of research we can do now... SO now that we can measure the "genetics" which makes up the argument of "race", and see that we arent different at all... we are the HUMAN RACE! and thats the only race we are... it leaves the other differences which are culture and environment based...

when someone is hairy, it means they lived somewhere where they had to have more hair to survive. when someone has less color in the tone of their skin, it means there was less sun in that area of the globe, etc...

so are armenians "white" or "black" or are we "gray"? that is a question that shouldnt even be asked, it is like asking are armenians "paper" or "plastic" it doesnt have an added value, it doesnt describe anything... after all we are all from the HUMAN RACE.

so now i want to restate somethiing i said in this thread: we say the words "white people" because thats the social understanding of what some people are referred to in this country. go to armenia, and there is no such understanding, for that matter, go to europe and there is also NO such understanding, because for exmaple, the french and english dont like each other, right? well they dont want to be refered to as the same "race" if you will, as the other... so there is no such understanding of "white peopel" outside of the US. this was created by people, and it can either go away, which would require that we grow up, mature, and accept intelligence, or we can live like anonymouse in the mystical world of deniel, regress, and artifical "racism"...

[ArmoBarbi]

Nune, we live in the US and simply accept the fact that this is done. We didnt create this notion nor do we help it survive by buying into it - unlike those of us who use the term "white people".

[Anonymouse]

i remember arguing with anony about this a long time ago, WINOMAN stop while you havent gone insane... anony is not a real human being, therefore he cant comprehend simple human argument pertaining to science, theory, logic, tc...

he is much younger then I am, he hasnt got a degree in any credible social science, and really has only read rubish... i argued the same point about race and culture and of couurse he has more time then i do, so i quit, or maybe we agreed to disagree...

This is the stupidest line of reasoning I have ever come across. Since when has having a "credible social science degree" a prerequisite for an internet discussion forum. Since when has someones age been a determining factor in a discussion? It sounds to me like you are full of yourself and cannot stand the fact that I pop the bubbles of egalitarian illusions you abide by. Therefore, since I do not agree with you, like winoman, you must resort to ad homenims. Thus, since I do not agree with you, and even offer evidence for my arguments, I therefore "can't comprehend simple human argument".

anywho, about armenians: there are several scholars that say we are indo-european, and there are several who say we are mediteranian... i say we have influence from all corners of the world because of your strategic positioning on the globe...
FOOD does matter... for example, when the mangolians invaded the armenian plataeu, what did we get? we got what is known as WONTONS in asian culture, but we dont call it that, we call it something else, and then there were the italians with their ravioli, but according to prominent armenian cooks, the recipe is MUCH more like the Asian style, the look is like the italian... when russians got armenia to be in the soviet union, what did we get, more food, this time RUSSIAN food, and when i make that food, i dont know what to call it, and my relative from lebanon dont know what it is either, but they LOVE IT... all i know is that it is russian, but Armenianized...

I do not understand what the purpose of this is, but if you are suggesting there have been cultural influences from other cultures, then that is not a subject of dispute. You and winoman constantly jammer about this point as if it makes or breaks things. It does not. The point of dispute is with regard to race and culture. I stated that culture is a product of race, for how else could culture develop? For any given culture to have come out, there had to have been a certain people to create that culture, since culture is only an outward reflection of a people. Armenians are a distinct people, that have created their own culture as well as absorbed others. This is true for any people, since no one lives in absolute isolation. Therefore, interactions are the rule and cultural borrowing and spread is therefore prevalent. Does this somehow mean that we are "mixed"? No it does not. While mixing has occured in every peoples, mixing occurs in degrees, and not in kinds. Those peoples and civilizations which have mixed not in degrees, but in kinds, have disappeared.

As far as culture and the cultural absorption that has occured, that is the only thing which you and winoman drive at, forgetting that it is the people that produced that original culture.There is an onion theory of culture proposed Sir Richard Winstedt. Specifically it is the "onion theory of Malay culture". The idea behind this is that if you peel off all the successive layers of cultural influence over the years, you will reach the core culture of that people. This theory was also used by John Whitmore, and he applied this to Vietnam, and its history. This can be applied to any people at given time and we can always come across to the core culture of a given people. As John Whitmore stated,

"Thus, for Malaya, off goes Islam, then the Hindu-Buddhism, before we reach the indigenous nature of Malay. This however assumes an unchanging process of cultural accretion, such that original cultural elements are untransformed as they move across the centuries. Instead, we need to consider, in a linguistic sense, constant change and transformation taking place as the culture develops, whether or not it is influenced from the outside. Yet, while this temporal change is taking place, a continuity still exists that allows us to recognize the culture as that culture, despite its changes. The question then is, what kind of transformation has taken place, and to what degree."

I am anxiously waiting for the day when a study of this theory can be written about Armenians and if I didn't plan to attend law school, I would have most earnestly chosen history to get the chance to research this. Thus, when we repeal the layers of your Asiatic influence, of Russian influence, we are left with the "indigenous nature" of Armenians.

race was theorized a long time ago, because we didnt have the resources to do the type of research we can do now... SO now that we can measure the "genetics" which makes up the argument of "race", and see that we arent different at all... we are the HUMAN RACE! and thats the only race we are... it leaves the other differences which are culture and environment based...

Race was not theorized a long time ago. How long is a "long time"? Be specific. Race became empirical only during the enlightenment, because of advance in science. However, to suggest that prior to this race did not exist is foolish and a gross retardation of history. The world of antiquity is riddled with literature that note the differences between human population groups. Just becuase they did not designate those differences with the modern term "race", does not mean that they were not aware of these distinctions between peoples. I do not want to go further off topic by bringing evidence of these things. Genetics can be measured in both ways, the ways in which they were measured was biased. Gene frequences and allele patterns exist in all peoples. There are frequencies that are similar in peoples and there are ones that are different. It can be that whoever measured them only chose to measure the similarities of human populations and not the differences and given the fact that the modern academia is steeped in egalitarian fiction, and ideological bias, there is all the more evidence of how science has been manipulated.

when someone is hairy, it means they lived somewhere where they had to have more hair to survive. when someone has less color in the tone of their skin, it means there was less sun in that area of the globe, etc...

This is the sort of assumptions that egalitarians are left with. Do you seriously suggest that if a sub-Saharan black African were to live in Norway that he would become "white" or "hairy"? Moreover, your above argument assumes that evolution is true or something that has already occured.

so are armenians "white" or "black" or are we "gray"? that is a question that shouldnt even be asked, it is like asking are armenians "paper" or "plastic" it doesnt have an added value, it doesnt describe anything... after all we are all from the HUMAN RACE.

That is untrue. Humans belong to the human species. It is within that human species that there exist varying races of people, with genetic variations.

so now i want to restate somethiing i said in this thread: we say the words "white people" because thats the social understanding of what some people are referred to in this country. go to armenia, and there is no such understanding, for that matter, go to europe and there is also NO such understanding, because for exmaple, the french and english dont like each other, right? well they dont want to be refered to as the same "race" if you will, as the other... so there is no such understanding of "white peopel" outside of the US. this was created by people, and it can either go away, which would require that we grow up, mature, and accept intelligence, or we can live like anonymouse in the mystical world of deniel, regress, and artifical "racism"...

I am glad that you constantly need to mention me because I quake the bedrock of your Disney-life beliefs. Living in denial, as you so aptly put it, of the reality of race, doesn't change the fact that race is real.

[winoman]

Culture is predicated by environment and circumstance (which can amount to accidents of discovery and/or gee - look what our neighbors are doing thats really cool and useful etc). Nothing to do with "race"

Likewise - just because people have chosen easy distinguishers - based on skin color, hair, particualr predominant facial features, and so on and so forth - does not mean that these distinctions are scientifically valid as they are only a handful of the larger set of characteristics that make up people - obvious and otherwise...and here is where the categorizations start to fall apart. For evey attempt at binning people to fall within one "race" or another - the list of exceptions or the potential to bin in other ways becomes greater then the (perhaps more obvious but not necissarily more important/distinguishing) commonalities...and of course - at the genetic level these sets of commonalities and diversities become so great to entirely obviate the makeing of such genetic/racial distinctions altogether.

Fundementally we differ by color (lots of variation here) and perhaps some physical traits that can be more or less isolated (though not entirely cleanly - more so in an on average manner) - that can be used to differentiate smaller groups (though again one must take into account the culture - physical differences alone are insufficient IMO).

Additionally, similar cultures or cultural elements can be found in populations consisting of different tribal peoples that are widely geographically seperated and who have had apparently little or no contact. What leads to this is similarity of environment that suggested certain solutions regarding how to survive and get along. (and what distinguishes modern humans is their ability to think and adapt - not just physically - but in terms of behavior - the ability to reason and make major shifts if solutions lend themselves). Of course societies in proximity or who have established contact - even if over a distance - will naturally incorporate more similar elements (process is called cultural diffusion). Likewise - the environment effects people in a physical sense - skin pigmentation to combat UV, nostrils that are better able to deal with humid or arid air, hair or lack thereof dependent on temperature and so on and so forth. So yes, given enough time (hundreds of generations...thousands...don't know), a group of Africans (or other people) from the tropics who might migrate to Norway and be forced to survive there (without modern technology that seperates people from the natural environment) would likely indeed grow paler and show other physical adaptations to better enable them to live in such an environment (and it seems that this is in fact what may have happened)...

Sorry Barbi - but this discussion is much more interesting then the one you started anyway....

And Nune - good post above...

[ArmoBarbi]

There are many topics that interest me more than the topic of my thread. It doesnt mean that I can just switch to that topic.

Eh. Continue if you wish. Ill come back if I feel like participating any more.

[winoman]

There are many topics that interest me more than the topic of my thread. It doesnt mean that I can just switch to that topic.

Eh. Continue if you wish. Ill come back if I feel like participating any more.

Thats a good girl - thanks for understanding...

Actually I'm really not sure what else needs to be said i this thread anyway.....oh and as far as I'm concerned all of my comments were entirely on topic with the thread as you started it...all a matter of perspective (and isn't this just the point you were making?)

[Mags]

Generally, when I call someone "white" I mean they're white trash...and I don't think armenians fit into that catagory

[winoman]

Generally, when I call someone "white" I mean they're white trash...and I don't think armenians fit into that catagory

:laugh: yes it is such a relative term...and again this is the point - its an arbitrary - largely meaningless term (as its meaning cannot be agreed upon...except once again in the case of Michael Jackson and I suppose Anyrat - but only because of association...)...yes...are we "in" or are we "out" - this is the question...and it depends on your point of view and the point your trying to make concerning others and yourself (meangful/valid or not). The reason it gets my goat so is that those who most shrilly insist that we are "white" are ussually the ones who are attempting to denigrate others for not being such....heil Hitler!

[Anonymouse]

Culture is predicated by environment and circumstance (which can amount to accidents of discovery and/or gee - look what our neighbors are doing thats really cool and useful etc). Nothing to do with "race"

Likewise - just because people have chosen easy distinguishers - based on skin color, hair, particualr predominant facial features, and so on and so forth - does not mean that these distinctions are scientifically valid as they are only a handful of the larger set of characteristics that make up people - obvious and otherwise...and here is where the categorizations start to fall apart. For evey attempt at binning people to fall within one "race" or another - the list of exceptions or the potential to bin in other ways becomes greater then the (perhaps more obvious but not necissarily more important/distinguishing) commonalities...and of course - at the genetic level these sets of commonalities and diversities become so great to entirely obviate the makeing of such genetic/racial distinctions altogether.

Fundementally we differ by color (lots of variation here) and perhaps some physical traits that can be more or less isolated (though not entirely cleanly - more so in an on average manner) - that can be used to differentiate smaller groups (though again one must take into account the culture - physical differences alone are insufficient IMO).

Additionally, similar cultures or cultural elements can be found in populations consisting of different tribal peoples that are widely geographically seperated and who have had apparently little or no contact. What leads to this is similarity of environment that suggested certain solutions regarding how to survive and get along. (and what distinguishes modern humans is their ability to think and adapt - not just physically - but in terms of behavior - the ability to reason and make major shifts if solutions lend themselves). Of course societies in proximity or who have established contact - even if over a distance - will naturally incorporate more similar elements (process is called cultural diffusion). Likewise - the environment effects people in a physical sense - skin pigmentation to combat UV, nostrils that are better able to deal with humid or arid air, hair or lack thereof dependent on temperature and so on and so forth. So yes, given enough time (hundreds of generations...thousands...don't know), a group of Africans (or other people) from the tropics who might migrate to Norway and be forced to survive there (without modern technology that seperates people from the natural environment) would likely indeed grow paler and show other physical adaptations to better enable them to live in such an environment (and it seems that this is in fact what may have happened)...

Sorry Barbi - but this discussion is much more interesting then the one you started anyway....

And Nune - good post above...

Culture would not exist if certain people were not there to create it. That is the way it goes. Until you can prove otherwise, my explanation stands, for how can culture, which is human expression, come out of environment or circumstance, and not people, begs the question. Do you know what the word culture is?

The fact that different races of peoples have produced different cultures is evident in history and civilization. To quote John Ruskin, "There is however, a marked distinction between the imaginations of the Western and Eastern races, even when both are left free; the Western, or Gothic, delighting most in the representation of facts, and the Eastern in the harmony of colours and forms." When we look at architecture of the orient, they are far more similar to each other (China, Korea, Japan, Vietnam, etc.), than they are to the occident (France, England, Germany, etc.). Even the characters of the writing script show marked distinctions. These cultural markers have come from the different imaginations of different racial groups. No egalitarian will admit this.

So yes, given enough time (hundreds of generations...thousands...don't know), a group of Africans (or other people) from the tropics who might migrate to Norway and be forced to survive there (without modern technology that seperates people from the natural environment) would likely indeed grow paler and show other physical adaptations to better enable them to live in such an environment (and it seems that this is in fact what may have happened)...

This is false. It has never been proven and there is absolutely no evidence that this would happen. It is based on erroneous assumptions. The idea that environment determined pigmentation is silly and absurd and rests on the unhallowed belief that evolution is somehow true. All it is is a belief, nothing more, and in my opinion, a terribly flawed belief. In order to not concede in the argument, you will adopt this fallacious belief to suit your argument. There is zero evidence of this. How does one explain the particular physiological, and morphological features of the Mongoloid races, if somehow the "cold north" changes pigmentation? To counter this the egalitarians have come up with another silly excuse as "diet", again another unsubstantiated belief. The evolutionary assumption does not hold.

The surest guide to how races differ is history itself, for only through the study of the history of different parts of the world we have come to see the different creative powers, imaginations, and potential of peoples.

[winoman]

People in culture - how can that be? Give me a break...no we're talking orangatangs...save me Dr Zaus!

The distinctions between Eastern and Western culture, art and philosophy and cultural indicators such as writing and language have to do with geographic seperation where each developed reletively independently. Its silly (and incorrect) to believe that some genetic difference is responsible for the different cultural paths taken - its all about proximity and contact and all of the (environmental derived) factors (incl random) that cause things (elements of societies) to occur and evolve.

And again you show your true (anti intellectual) stripes in rejecting the fundemental precipts of evolution...what else can I say...if you reject evolution then you might as well reject all science as the theory of evolution and its assocated precipts is fully accepted within the scientific community because it is good science - and it is based on observation and analysis.

[hyebruin]

this thread is getting as boring as the title itself :rolleyes:

[Anonymouse]

People in culture - how can that be? Give me a break...no we're talking orangatangs...save me Dr Zaus!

The distinctions between Eastern and Western culture, art and philosophy and cultural indicators such as writing and language have to do with geographic seperation where each developed reletively independently. Its silly (and incorrect) to believe that some genetic difference is responsible for the different cultural paths taken - its all about proximity and contact and all of the (environmental derived) factors (incl random) that cause things (elements of societies) to occur and evolve.

The reason why race determines culture is precisely what I highlighted - namely, that the cultural marks are specific to given population or racial types. It is not because of environment that all oriental architecture and language characters are similar to each other. It is because of the stock of that people. If you state the environment shapes people such as Europe and the cold north, then why is it that the Mongolian races, in a similar northern climate have different features, skull shape, eye shape, and culture. Both the environments in Europe and Asia include cold and snow, yet both are different physiological, morphologically, and culturally. The evolutionary explanation again doesn't answer this aside from worth conjectures.

And again you show your true (anti intellectual) stripes in rejecting the fundemental precipts of evolution...what else can I say...if you reject evolution then you might as well reject all science as the theory of evolution and its assocated precipts is fully accepted within the scientific community because it is good science - and it is based on observation and analysis.

Evolution is a theory, therefore a belief. You speak as if rejecting your cherished belief is somehow a crime. Your unhallowed and fanatical belief in evolution, and egalitarianism is akin to the height of the Inquisition when the official dogma of the Church could not be questioned. I have stated that science is limited. Science is about observation of the natural world. Evolution is not observed. It is simply assumed.

[nunechka]

you are too funny, i mention you because you keep blabbing on and on about your nazi like race theories you read in some internet forum... my dear anony, #1 you do need to have some sort of social science degree to push your perspective... that is because if you did then you would've read many books writen by people who study indigenous cultures.

and race was theorized in the last century (meaning the 19th century) (as far as the books can date back to the dead white men who wrote them).

so you dont believe that we have evolved? or that there is evolution constantly?

many scholars of today, in both sociology, anthro, etc... all agree that the word "race" should never be used, and should be thrown out of intelligent discussions in academia...

[nunechka]

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/first/brace.html

[nunechka]

http://www.washington.edu/burkemuseum/kman/the_idea_of_race.htm

[nunechka]

again... MANY SCHOLARS agree (NO SUCH THING as race)

http://www.msmagazine.com/blog/archives/2004/09/why_race_doesna.html

[winoman]

Super posts! good job...

[ArmoBarbi]

this thread is getting as boring as the title itself :rolleyes:

You wanna take this outside? http://www.my-smileys.de/smileys2/boxer.gif

[Anonymouse]

you are too funny, i mention you because you keep blabbing on and on about your nazi like race theories you read in some internet forum... my dear anony, #1 you do need to have some sort of social science degree to push your perspective... that is because if you did then you would've read many books writen by people who study indigenous cultures.

and race was theorized in the last century (meaning the 19th century) (as far as the books can date back to the dead white men who wrote them).

so you dont believe that we have evolved? or that there is evolution constantly?

many scholars of today, in both sociology, anthro, etc... all agree that the word "race" should never be used, and should be thrown out of intelligent discussions in academia...

By stating that if I had a social science degree I would have read many books written by people who study indigenous cultures, that somehow things would be different, you are displaying your ignorance. First of all, this statement is entirely based on the assumption that I have not read any books from diverse writers, and furthermore you go on to smear me and my view as "Nazi like race theories". By doing so, again you display your ignorance on the matter that the Nazi's were not the first to have these theories, nor the last, and furthermore, the idea of different racial groups was not something new only to the Nazis and existed way before throughout history and into antiquity.

That "many scholars" agree there is no such thing as race doesn't mean anything. Essentially it is a fallacy of irrelevance. By the bandwagon fallacy, because many scholars support something does not necessarily make it true. That most modern "scholars" have created an intellectual Berlin Wall and harp on free speech and intellectual liberty by proscribing talk of race, or teaching evolution as holy writ, they are committing the same intellectual bullying that Nazis or Commies committed. It sounds like you only like to agree or here those views in which you are agreed with, and you want to make the very mention of the word 'race' illegal. And you call yourself a liberal. I have always maintained that liberals are only liberal and tolerant of those views which they agree with. We have already seen how 'liberal' and 'tolerant' you and wino have been about dissenting views. Now crawl back behind the intellectual Berlin Wall where you came from.

[nunechka]

ok anony, i'm the ignorant one... OK! SURE! yaaaa! you are right... OK!

it is also apperant to me, that you dont really read my posts... if you were anywhere near elemantary education you would never put nazi and commi in the same sentence, unless you were showing how OPPOSITE and POLAR they are compared to each other...

actually liberals are those that question the mainstream; liberals are tolerant of everyone (unless you want to kill people) liberals are willing to step back, question, criticize, etc... rather those that arent liberals, are so certain of what they believe (you) that THEY cant see the opposing view or anything that doesn't fit into their little comfy world...

i am not from the intellectual berlin wall, i dont even know what this means... i am an average person, i see things from the poor perspective, because thats what I AM... i am not like, i dont have all the great things you do... i dont have the capability to talk from a warm cushy couch like you... thats why i know that if we dont take care of our society, the poor, the challenged, the discriminated, that there is nothing else left to do...

but you dont see that, because you dont have to live like that everyday... how many jobs do you have now??? how many loans do you have to pay off? you dont have to face those issues, do you have a car payment? insurrance? house payment? do you have 2 jobs and school full time? you dont even try to relate, or empathize... you cant see from anothers perspective and you dont even try anony... and that is much scarier and much more distructive then some feminist egalitarian... at least we want to care, and we want to hear what you have to say... at least we believe that we are all the same human beings... that you and I are just as important (equal)...

and a degree is different then some books you have read... TRUST ME!... in a class you dont just read a book, you read it, you challenge your views, you criticize, you brainstorm, you do field work, you compare and contrast, you debate... its completely different... i recommend that you do get a degree in this, and then you can email me 2 years after you have completed your degree, and then we can talk... you will not be this immature anymore... trust me... the classroom environment is MUCH more intellectually stimulating and refreshing.

[Anonymouse]

ok anony, i'm the ignorant one... OK! SURE! yaaaa! you are right... OK!

it is also apperant to me, that you dont really read my posts... if you were anywhere near elemantary education you would never put nazi and commi in the same sentence, unless you were showing how OPPOSITE and POLAR they are compared to each other...

actually liberals are those that question the mainstream; liberals are tolerant of everyone (unless you want to kill people) liberals are willing to step back, question, criticize, etc... rather those that arent liberals, are so certain of what they believe (you) that THEY cant see the opposing view or anything that doesn't fit into their little comfy world...

i am not from the intellectual berlin wall, i dont even know what this means... i am an average person, i see things from the poor perspective, because thats what I AM... i am not like, i dont have all the great things you do... i dont have the capability to talk from a warm cushy couch like you... thats why i know that if we dont take care of our society, the poor, the challenged, the discriminated, that there is nothing else left to do...

but you dont see that, because you dont have to live like that everyday... how many jobs do you have now??? how many loans do you have to pay off? you dont have to face those issues, do you have a car payment? insurrance? house payment? do you have 2 jobs and school full time? you dont even try to relate, or empathize... you cant see from anothers perspective and you dont even try anony... and that is much scarier and much more distructive then some feminist egalitarian... at least we want to care, and we want to hear what you have to say... at least we believe that we are all the same human beings... that you and I are just as important (equal)...

and a degree is different then some books you have read... TRUST ME!... in a class you dont just read a book, you read it, you challenge your views, you criticize, you brainstorm, you do field work, you compare and contrast, you debate... its completely different... i recommend that you do get a degree in this, and then you can email me 2 years after you have completed your degree, and then we can talk... you will not be this immature anymore... trust me... the classroom environment is MUCH more intellectually stimulating and refreshing.

Five paragraphs of larded opinion. For the last time, stop trying to explain to me what a classroom is like and how critical thinking works as if you are the only one in possession of the TRUTH and everyone else is an evil chauvinist fraud. And now you go back to your initial ad hominem of "I recommend you get a degree before your opinions matter". You're the one that keeps responding to me with nothing more than emotional banter and irrational exhuberance. I never ask for you to respond. And when you are displeased with it you resort to blaming me for what is initially your irrationalism. Without emotions and name calling which is usually the brunt of your five paragraph posts, you wouldn't have much to say.

[nunechka]

you are a lost cause!

good luck man!

[CatWoman]

you are a lost cause!

good luck man!

I have a feeling you two are gonna get married AND anony will ask winoman to be the best man!! I can so see this happening!

[ArmoBarbi]

I have a feeling you two are gonna get married AND anony will ask winoman to be the best man!! I can so see this happening!

:laugh: We can be the bride's maids!

[CatWoman]

:laugh: We can be the bride's maids!

Na-ah! YOU can be the bride's maid! I'll be the maid of honor, I'm sure nune wouldn't mind! :D

[ArmoBarbi]

Na-ah! YOU can be the bride's maid! I'll be the maid of honor, I'm sure nune wouldn't mind! :D

And here I was being nice and humble for once...thats what I get :rolleyes:

You go ahead and be the maid of honor, theyre usually older :p :evil: (kidding)

[winoman]

I have a feeling you two are gonna get married AND anony will ask winoman to be the best man!! I can so see this happening!

LOL - perhaps more bizarre things have happened....but I think you could come up with a simpler reason to throw a party...

[TigranJamharian]

Since when is it that we don't have anyone to argue against the product of the over liberal propoganda machine in the US that has brainwashed all of you. Just because 90% of the whites in the US and most of Europe are in a race to see who is more liberal and who supports this human race nonsense more doesn't mean you have a point. Since when do I agree with Anon, and surprisingly I would think you would argue on the opposite side Anon. Don't pay these people heed. Fortunately there arent too many of them whithin the Armenian community, regrettably there are a lot of wiggers, who these kind of people support and thus lead towards the degradation and digression of our race and culture.


Secondly, whether or not there is an anthropological basis to race(i believe there is, you in your misguided "hold hands and circle the world" dreams dont) the simple fact that the overwhelming majority of people still identify a white race and still include us in that category should annul any misguided and baseless arguments you might have. And anyone who says we are closer to persians and kurds than we are to Northern Europeans might as well go kill themselves as you are severely bringing down the intelligence level of this nation, this race and this world you live on. I still cant believe we have self haters such as this and such misguided and brainwashed idiots who blabber out of their a$$es.

[nunechka]

what liberal propaganda? LOL! ohhh my GOD lol that is too funny!

actually GERMANS say that ARMENIANS are not white... and in england (they believe people from the middle east, mediteran... are BLACK!) i have a friend from college who can contest to that... so in the US, NO ONE would call an armenian a WHITE person, only an armenian would... and NO one is europe would either...

MY GERMAN friend says that everyone starting fromturkey, georgia, down to the persians, including armenians, are not considered white in europe...

[nunechka]

and ladies, ladies, wait a MINUTE! you can be my bride's maids in my hell wedding anyday... winoman you can be the kavor... LOL!

it is so discouraging when i think about anony... just makes my whole perspective of men become a toilet flushing http://www.mysmilie.de/english/green/smilies/disgusting/img/006.gif

[Anonymouse]

actually GERMANS say that ARMENIANS are not white

Really? Where is the source for this? Have you heard all Germans say this?

... and in england (they believe people from the middle east, mediteran... are BLACK!)

So they believe Italians, Greeks, and Armenians are black? Really? Where did you hear this? Can you please give a source for that as well? Have you talked to everyone in England?

i have a friend from college who can contest to that

Really? So what you have are not sources or studies but a friend, who can attest (not contest) to that?

... so in the US, NO ONE would call an armenian a WHITE person, only an armenian would... and NO one is europe would either...

Just what are these spurious generalizations based other than what you have made up based on what your friend has said?

MY GERMAN friend says that everyone starting fromturkey, georgia, down to the persians, including armenians, are not considered white in europe...

So you're basing all these statements on what one German friend said? And he speaks for all of Europe?

[ArmoBarbi]

Haha on the toilet. I hope we would get cute dresses AND SHOES!

On a more serious note, Id like to meet that German lol I know people who live in Central Europe and know exactly how "white" Armenians are. Any major university will teach this even in this country. Anything else is just based on a lack of knowledge or brainwashing as far as I see.

Tigran, I agree with your opinion (as usual) minus the harsh wording :)

[hyebruin]

it is so discouraging when i think about anony... just makes my whole perspective of men become a toilet flushing http://www.mysmilie.de/english/green/smilies/disgusting/img/006.gif

wow, how sweet!

it's interesting how you keep bringing up this notion of armenians not being white...the people who think that greeks, armenians, italians...etc are black have the same kind of ignorant and intolerant mentality as the toothless hicks do in the south and in rural areas who think that all blacks, asians, hispanics, and other minorities are 2nd class citizens! and believe me!! there still ARE people like this running around consuming our oxygen and polluting the air with CO2 :rolleyes:

[ArmoBarbi]

wow, how sweet!

it's interesting how you keep bringing up this notion of armenians not being white...the people who think that greeks, armenians, italians...etc are black have the same kind of ignorant and intolerant mentality as the toothless hicks do in the south and in rural areas who think that all blacks, asians, hispanics, and other minorities are 2nd class citizens! and believe me!! there still ARE people like this running around consuming our oxygen and polluting the air with CO2 :rolleyes:

Karine, my faith in you has been restored! :)

[hyebruin]

Karine, my faith in you has been restored! :)

i never knew it was lost ;) maybe you misperceived where i stand on things :wave:

:)

[ArmoBarbi]

i never knew it was lost ;) maybe you misperceived where i stand on things :wave:

:)

I suppose I did. Forgive me lol :wave:

[TigranJamharian]

what liberal propaganda? LOL! ohhh my GOD lol that is too funny!

actually GERMANS say that ARMENIANS are not white... and in england (they believe people from the middle east, mediteran... are BLACK!) i have a friend from college who can contest to that... so in the US, NO ONE would call an armenian a WHITE person, only an armenian would... and NO one is europe would either...

MY GERMAN friend says that everyone starting fromturkey, georgia, down to the persians, including armenians, are not considered white in europe...

Keep believing what you want to believe and spewing out senseless crap, I've never been in Germany but i have met many Germans in their 20's and 30's on vacation in the US and as counsellors on a program at a camp I worked. We've touched upon race countless times and never did I get the slightest indication that they did not consider me or Armenians as a whole, white.
You have one idiotic friend from england and another from Germany who thinks that Mediterranean people and Georgians and Armenians are black and this testifies to your own intelligence level. Bravo! keep going.
I suggest you visit a white supremecist site called called www.stormfront.org and see for yourself how the overwhelming majority there views Armenians and read for yourself some scientific basis for racial breakdowns. The posters there are surprisingly intelligent and not the kind of people you would usually associate with racism. you could learn a lot from them yourself.

[Anonymouse]

Keep believing what you want to believe and spewing out senseless crap, I've never been in Germany but i have met many Germans in their 20's and 30's on vacation in the US and as counsellors on a program at a camp I worked. We've touched upon race countless times and never did I get the slightest indication that they did not consider me or Armenians as a whole, white.
You have one idiotic friend from england and another from Germany who thinks that Mediterranean people and Georgians and Armenians are black and this testifies to your own intelligence level. Bravo! keep going.
I suggest you visit a white supremecist site called called www.stormfront.org and see for yourself how the overwhelming majority there views Armenians and read for yourself some scientific basis for racial breakdowns. The posters there are surprisingly intelligent and not the kind of people you would usually associate with racism. you could learn a lot from them yourself.

Oh no you mentioned stormfront. How could you? Nunechka might have an aneurism now. :eek:

[winoman]

I find it funny that certain Armenians claim that when other Armenians express issues/doubt/examples of others claiming that Armenians are not "white" or that some of us don't identify with being "white" that somehow we are self-haters...as if being "white" automatically has the connotation of superior or such...absurd.

Again - Albinos and Micheal Jackson are "white" - everyone else is just pretending. It is not a differentiator that really has any meaning. And Armenains are clearly not "European" (regardless of some claiming that anything east o=f the Urals...no doesn't cut it - Armenians have never been European culturaly...once again its the Lavash baby!)

So - we are categorized as Caucasian - OK - but what does this really mean - its a somewhat arbitrary distinction IMO (and in most anthropoligists' opinion)...again line em up - and I think you would much more easily pick out Armenians from a line up of other Caucasians then you could from a linup of semites or what have you...and again - this focuses on physical characteristics only anyway...but what really matters more is culture....and our culture is - like all - a blend of differening amounts of the cultures around us synthesized into what it is (and even then - as Armenians have been in somewhat Diaspora status for some time - even "Armenian culture" is no one thing)....so where does that leave us? Well - we are Armenians....this is what binds us - what we identify with - and what distinguishes us...not weather we are "white" or European or what have you. I see things just the opposite to those who attempt to claim so stridently that we are "white" and european...it is you who seem insecure and in need of identifying us with something that we are not to make yourselves feel better. Those of us who realise that we are a mix - and that we are more like others of the Levant than of Europe - that we are the ones accepting of our nature and culture...and not the other way around...

[winoman]

Oh no you mentioned stormfront. How could you? Nunechka might have an aneurism now. :eek:

BTW - I occasionaly monitor this site and some other similar ones - I have seen numerous instances where Armenians were heaped with abuse and were racially taunted and called camel-jockys or similar from these stormfront and other Aryan racist types...so good luck with fitting in with your new found buddies...

[ArmoBarbi]

I find it funny that certain Armenians claim that when other Armenians express issues/doubt/examples of others claiming that Armenians are not "white" or that some of us don't identify with being "white" that somehow we are self-haters...as if being "white" automatically has the connotation of superior or such...absurd.

Again - Albinos and Micheal Jackson are "white" - everyone else is just pretending. It is not a differentiator that really has any meaning. And Armenains are clearly not "European" (regardless of some claiming that anything east o=f the Urals...no doesn't cut it - Armenians have never been European culturaly...once again its the Lavash baby!)

So - we are categorized as Caucasian - OK - but what does this really mean - its a somewhat arbitrary distinction IMO (and in most anthropoligists' opinion)...again line em up - and I think you would much more easily pick out Armenians from a line up of other Caucasians then you could from a linup of semites or what have you...and again - this focuses on physical characteristics only anyway...but what really matters more is culture....and our culture is - like all - a blend of differening amounts of the cultures around us synthesized into what it is (and even then - as Armenians have been in somewhat Diaspora status for some time - even "Armenian culture" is no one thing)....so where does that leave us? Well - we are Armenians....this is what binds us - what we identify with - and what distinguishes us...not weather we are "white" or European or what have you. I see things just the opposite to those who attempt to claim so stridently that we are "white" and european...it is you who seem insecure and in need of identifying us with something that we are not to make yourselves feel better. Those of us who realise that we are a mix - and that we are more like others of the Levant than of Europe - that we are the ones accepting of our nature and culture...and not the other way around...

Doesnt cut it? What part of "geographers agree" dont you understand? West of Ural Mts is Europe. Argue about our "culture" and lavash all you want lol its simply not up for your approval. :rolleyes: Where did you go to school if you dont mind??

[winoman]

I suggest you visit a white supremecist site called called ***stormfront***and see for yourself how the overwhelming majority there views Armenians and read for yourself some scientific basis for racial breakdowns. The posters there are surprisingly intelligent and not the kind of people you would usually associate with racism. you could learn a lot from them yourself.

Scientific basis for racial breakdowns...not the sort ussually associated with rascism....ho ho ha ha...

I must say though - the opinions oft expressed on this site (stormfront) and those frequently posted her by the rat (except concerning Armenians as "WHITE") - seem to coincide near 100%...I must add though - there are a fari number of Armenians on that site...and these Armenians are mostly known to me - and they are the vileset and most hateful I have ever come accross on the internet...

Lets see a quick check of thes site gives us such gems as:

Holocause denial (in spades...as it were)...and spcifically blaming the xxxs for undemining Germany (sound familiar?)

denial of the exsistance of rascism (or that it is such a bad thing)...

Some specific quotes:

the problems of the Armenians

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Armenia was a once great nation. It served as a bastion of Christianity for centuries. Their history is Western-oriented. However, Armenia is not geographically in Europe. Armenian script doesn't use European (Romanized or Cyrrillic) symbols, it looks Arabic in origin. My second observation is that not all Armenians are of old Armenian stock. Many are visibly mixed. Lastly, while I know that many Armenian nationalists are about being wholly Armenian in every way, many Armenians don't. A large number tend to associate with other Middle Easterners, except for Turks because Turks are filthy and should be eliminated. These Armenians, from what I have seen first hand, make up a disturbingly large portion of the population. Somewhat akin to wiggers. Except wiggers don;t make up large portions of European nations.

I'd accept classical Armenians without any problems, but as it stands now, the country needs a massive to purge itself of non-White Armenians and those who don't act like true Armenians.

(my comment - so Armenains might be OK if we purge non whites among us...)

Me too. I've known a number Armenians, and while they're probably about the darkest people I'd consider to be white, they embodied everything a good aryan should be....they were smart, hardworking, loyal, family oriented and even racially proud. The ones I've known were Armenian-Americans and they were fully assimalated to western culture....unlike the muds.

(my comment - so perhaps we are a darker shade of pale as it were...)

i have met many armenians during my life... in fact, the city i'm living in (tbilisi, capital of georgia) has a large armenian community... there are whites among them, of course and almost every armenian says that all original armenians looked pure white and after a bloodmix that lasted thousands of years darker element began to appear...
armenians are definately darker than georgians and every georgian knows it. but we georgians consider ourselves whites , as well as we consider armenians to be whites too, but "darker whites"

(hm again - we seem to be viewd as somewhat mixed and a bit darker then might be approved of...)

azeris aren't white... they are considered to be "dark" by the georgians... some armenians and georgians (mainly from Kahetia, an eastern georgian region that suffered a strong persian and turkic mixes) are also under the georgian "dark" definition...
for example a person depicted on the first photo is considered to be "dark" and non-white by georgians... he's an azeri taxist from tbilisi
second photo depicts an old man from the mountains of western georgia... among georgians that anthropological type is considered white (sorry for bad quality scans)

(hm - seems we are borderline eh...)

And from an Armenian on the site:

true Georgians and true Armenians are white and have always been. However, there are much more true Armenians than true Georgians. Stop your veiled insults, don't think I don't see it.


But the response:

White means European. Hating Turks is good, but it does not automatically qualify one as European. Armenia is not a part of Europe. Half the maps I see say no, some say yes, mostly political maps. If we accept Armenia as being European, then we must also accept Georgians, Azeris and Turks as White too. I'm glad Armenia is a little bastion of Christian Orthodoxy, but that still doesn't qualify as being White. When I say quit pretending what I am saying is quit pretending to be White. A lot of Armenians aren't pure Armenian. That, and the geography. My problems stem from what I perceive to be a rift, both social and cultural, between true Armenians and more modern Armenians, mostly diaspora, who act, talk and associate with Middle Easterners. Armenians who live in Iran or Lebanon or Syria aren't culturally White/European. That makes as much sense as me saying I'm pure White but my name is Chiang Kai-shek and my family has lived in Mongolia for 5 generations. To think that I am somehow still truly White is rediculous. The same is sadly true for a large number of Armenians. I have a special name for ideologies that are so narrow sighted that they ignore politics, culture, religion, history, science etc. We call that $#!& Pan-Aryanism. If Armenians want to be White then they should do anything in their power to disassociate themselves with such scum. Here, we don't associate with wiggers. We welcome them back if they change their views, but wiggers aren't a sizeable portion of the European population.


SO who really needs the recognition of and association with these type of people anyway????

[winoman]

Doesnt cut it? What part of "geographers agree" dont you understand? West of Ural Mts is Europe. Argue about our "culture" and lavash all you want lol its simply not up for your approval. :rolleyes: Where did you go to school if you dont mind??

Again - its about culture - not stricly geogrophy. You don't consider Chechens European do you?

Oh and I started attending Johns Hopkins University for Anthropology when I was 14 years old...graduated at 18...

[ArmoBarbi]

Darn it!!! I typed a post and it didnt work!!! I hate it when that happens....

You learned this at John Hopkins?? I dont know enough about Chechens to consider them anything but Chechens. I do know that there is such a thing as migration, and there are people in the Caucusus who have Asian origins. I also know that Armenians are not one of these people. If we migrated from either side - it was the west side.

Plus, I tend to go by the official groups established by the professionals. Not one of these professionals (from what I see) will put Armenians in the Semitic or Altaic or even Caucasian group over Indo-European.

If you have a different official grouping you wish to show me, I will gladly look.

[winoman]

My "claim" is one that is largely accepted by Anthropologists today (though not without some dissent - much as there exists differences of opinion regarding the degree of biological verus cultural determinism etc) - and this claim is - that racial categorization is not scientifically valid - but has been used primarily as a mechanism for making certain top level distinctions - and when these are fully put to the test one finds that genetic commonalities tend to be much more prevelent in assocated (by geography) populations - regardless of more commonly identifiable racial facial/skin/hair etc characteristics. So its primarily been a matter of convenience to make such groupings when in fact there are greater differences for example between pygmies and Masai then between Armenians and Turks (or Chechens or whomever...geogrphically close but not normally thought of as the same racially...) for instance.

And the issue of European vesus Asian or what have you - here geography alone is not the determinor - but culture. And again - lines are not so cleanly drawn. Does Armenian culture (again what is "pure" here...? if one dan even ever ID such) - does it share elements with what is accepted as European culture - certainly some things yes...but it certainly shares much more with Persian culture for instance - just in the way we live - and what we eat is a very central part of this...but other things as well - our dances, how and what we celbrate, family relationships (and specifically courting practices and marraige rituals...etc) - etc etc - these are what make us. But any examination of what Armenains "are" must consider the Diaspora influences and the dispersion of Armenain communities throughout (primarily) Anatolia and the Middle East and consider these various impacts as well...

[winoman]

Not one of these professionals (from what I see) will put Armenians in the Semitic or Altaic or even Caucasian group over Indo-European.

If you have a different official grouping you wish to show me, I will gladly look.

Here you are talking language I believe - and for the most part you are correct (and I really don't claim expertise on Armenian language or otherwise really to be honest) - but my understanding is that Armenian is generally considered as one of the base/early? Indo-European languages (a very large & diverse family with some common roots & characteristics) that is in many ways not closely related to most others and that there is sometimes some dispute if Armenian is properly placed.

Anyway - language - as very important as it is...tells us perhaps much about where we originated culturally...but not necissarily where we came out of (racially? - ?) before such and not so much how our culture as evolved since (though words added to the root language will give some clues concerning subsequant influences...)

I will caveat - I have a degree in Anthropology - and studied it and other related subjects...and I keep up - to a certain degree - but do not work in the field or practice it per se - so there are plenty of others who can actually provide more specifically informed viewpoints on these matters. I do feel that I am fairly on concerning the general concepts (and trends of accepted knowledge/views) and such however.

[ArmoBarbi]

I think that having our own language, we are able to use it as a clue as to our origin and finding which group we belong to in terms of origin. (Keeping in mind that our language even has had influence by people who have taken us over and such)

Of course we have "cultural" similarities with these people, just like Soviet Armenians have "cultural" similarities with Russians. Our culture will be similar to people who are near and who capture us. The Middle Eastern and Asiatic just seem more legit because they go further back. Had we been captured for years by Germans we would have more "cultural" similarities to Germans. You really wanna go by this as evidence to our racial grouping and origin??

[TigranJamharian]

Ok, let me get this straight, first you undermine the credibility of the site, then you post a thread about someone saying that our alphabet looks like Arabic, you as a mid-east loving idiot would probably agree with this although I for Christ's sake do not see what the hell they are talking about. Then he says we associate with middleeasterners. Now what the hell would you expect people who lived in Syria and Lebanon to do? Now what do wiggers have to do with the whiteness of a nation. Most of the arguments is about geographics, and whether or not Armenia is technically in Europe I dont think it makes much of a difference, and if you dont think our culture is European you are probably a Bolsahaye who eats turkish food listens to turkish music and speaks turkish and you dont know anything about Armenian culture or history. As Anon said youve probably never even been to Armenia but yet you feel you are a good source on our race, and as a supposed anthropology student you think there is no scientific basis to race? You're telling me humans are all historically and genetically the same and yet some of us come out looking black and some of us come out looking white with straight hair?
Now read my post, "overwhelming majority". Go and count up how many people there view Armenians as non-whites and how many view us as full Euro cultured whites and you come back and give me your findings.
For some nutjob reason you think you are morally and intellectually superior and can talk down from a high ground on things you know nothing about because you are a firm believer integration(which hasnt done anything but bad for the black race) and a future race where we are all light brown, with slightly spread eyes and very wavy hair and we can all live together without differences of any kind.
You keep bringing up lavash humorously and think you are being funny, now what the hell does lavash have to do with the orientation of our culture you nitwit? Where else do you find flat bread? Lets see..... Italy, Greece, Israel, you ever thought it might be a Medittaranean thing.
The Armenian language's closest relative is Greek, followed by Persian, and no there is not much dispute at all about this.
Turks are a mixture of their tribes from the Mongolian steppes and every white race they could find and rape, including Armenians, Greeks, Bulgarians, Georgians, Assyrians.
What do we eat that is authentic Armenian cuisine and exclusive from European culture or cuisine? nothing at all. I wont even address the other aspects you mentioned because you gave no specifics at all. Now give me specific examples of cultural expamples of Armenians which you find "un-European" and I will adress them one by one.
What type of Armenian are you, Bolsahye? Beirutsi? Halebtsi? Definately from the middle east because ill tell you this much, go to Armenia and tell people that you don't think we are European and they will take you for a madman.
Take your simple college textbook inspired bs arguments out of here and go learn something about the Armenian people and culture before you make yourself an authoritative source and start running your mouth and giving people the wrong impression from the garbage you talk.

[winoman]

I think that having our own language, we are able to use it as a clue as to our origin and finding which group we belong to in terms of origin. (Keeping in mind that our language even has had influence by people who have taken us over and such)

Of course we have "cultural" similarities with these people, just like Soviet Armenians have "cultural" similarities with Russians. Our culture will be similar to people who are near and who capture us. The Middle Eastern and Asiatic just seem more legit because they go further back. Had we been captured for years by Germans we would have more "cultural" similarities to Germans. You really wanna go by this as evidence to our racial grouping and origin??

I'm not sure the issue was necissarily "racial grouping and origin" - with emphasis on "origin" - to some degree this is a new point to the discussion - or at least has not been directly brought out until now. I think I have pretty clearly made the case that "white" is meaningless (we are not "white" in color and the idea of a "white" race is pretty much meaningless) - there is not really a clear scientific distinction for purposes of grouping people (white - non-white...its a subjective grouping) - and we cannot really be considered European (though if your German scenario would have occured then perhaps we would be considered European...however we have been around much longer then "Germans" per se - consider that). So - in terms of "grouping" - it seems - from what I have read and from talking extensively with an ethnologist aquaintance who has written on and specializes in our region (who might be aminiable to joining our discussion...might be...if I wear to contact and invite him...) - we are most closely (physically/genetically) related to Persians and Kurds (culture seems to bear this out to some degree as well - accounting for differences in the nomadism expressed by the Kurds of course). You see - its culture that matters - not so much grouping us with other folks from far back in time (before we culturally were "Armenian"). Sure the issue of our origins is an interesting one - and one where we just don't have the answers. Many possible theories of our origins abound...then there is the issue of what groupings of peoples may have joined together to eventually become what we consider Armenians (and each of these groups may have had quite different origins - check out info availabe on the Hittites for instance...their language was not ours and they were seemingly comprised [as an empire] of different groups - one or more of which seem to have become - at least in part - Armenian... )....so even this issue of our origins in not a clear one and one that leads to many dead ends - inconclusive at best (now perhaps genetics may answer many of these questions...eventually...but for now we just don't really know...)...so in the end it is the culture (that damn Lavash bread again...) which binds us...make sense?

[Anonymouse]

BTW - I occasionaly monitor this site and some other similar ones - I have seen numerous instances where Armenians were heaped with abuse and were racially taunted and called camel-jockys or similar from these stormfront and other Aryan racist types...so good luck with fitting in with your new found buddies...

And I have seen far more instances where Armenians were greeted with respect and considered white since I monitor it as well. I have not seen them be called camel jockies.

[winoman]

Tigran - I am very familiar with your posts on this site - and as usual - your ignorance apears to know no bounds...

Ok, let me get this straight, first you undermine the credibility of the site, then you post a thread about someone saying that our alphabet looks like Arabic, you as a mid-east loving idiot would probably agree with this although I for Christ's sake do not see what the hell they are talking about.

While you are correct that the (Strormfront) thread where I pulled quotes from did discuss Armenain & Arabic alphebet - I did not introduce that part of the discussion - unless it was buried in one of the comments - don't knwo what it has to do with anything anyway - as i don't find much of anything said on Stormfront to be very credible in and of itself. My point in posting the comments was to counter your & Rat's contention that other "whites" (those seeing themselves as white/aryan) consider Armenians to be so - its a mixed bag - but bottom line - I don't think I would count on their sympathies after they win the race war...

Then he says we associate with middleeasterners. Now what the hell would you expect people who lived in Syria and Lebanon to do? Now what do wiggers have to do with the whiteness of a nation. Most of the arguments is about geographics, and whether or not Armenia is technically in Europe I dont think it makes much of a difference, and if you dont think our culture is European you are probably a Bolsahaye who eats turkish food listens to turkish music and speaks turkish and you dont know anything about Armenian culture or history. As Anon said youve probably never even been to Armenia but yet you feel you are a good source on our race, and as a supposed anthropology student you think there is no scientific basis to race? You're telling me humans are all historically and genetically the same and yet some of us come out looking black and some of us come out looking white with straight hair?

No we are all different from one another in many ways (sme obvious - some subtle) - in many varying ways - not easily put into consitent larger groupings because where we differ is not always the same. Likewise we share characteristics with others as well - ussually/mostly with those who are geographically near us. But we are Armenian - that is our community - based primarily on culture (that is much more Middle Eastern per se then European - but it is identifyable Armenian and not something else...)...and Anthropologists generally do not find race distinctions (that you & Rat & Stormfront hold true) to have any real meaning...its not just me..

Now read my post, "overwhelming majority". Go and count up how many people there view Armenians as non-whites and how many view us as full Euro cultured whites and you come back and give me your findings.

I have no desire or care to do this whatsoever - why would I...it is you who value these Neandertal's (I'm speaking culturally here) opinions...


For some nutjob reason you think you are morally and intellectually superior and can talk down from a high ground on things you know nothing about because you are a firm believer integration(which hasnt done anything but bad for the black race) and a future race where we are all light brown, with slightly spread eyes and very wavy hair and we can all live together without differences of any kind.

You assume much you don't understand and you claim much which is patently false. And not that I really care about your highly uniformed and irrelevant opinion - but I find your claim that integration "hasnt done anything but bad for the black race" curious - and certainly unsupportable...And yes - there are differences among people - and that is a good thing - but also is a source of some problems at times of course. I don't like that much of our unique culture and that of many other people is disapearing in our world today - but it is not in my power to stop the tide of technology and the shrinking of our earth and integration into a world culture - it is happening ever more rapidly and it will likely continue to do so. We need to apply ourselves to think about it and act to do what we can to do our best to influence this course in a positive way.

You keep bringing up lavash humorously and think you are being funny, now what the hell does lavash have to do with the orientation of our culture you nitwit? Where else do you find flat bread? Lets see..... Italy, Greece, Israel, you ever thought it might be a Medittaranean thing.

It is funny I think. Its also funny you calling me a nitwit... and yes - flatbread is a Med & Mid East thing...oh my you have had an insight!


The Armenian language's closest relative is Greek, followed by Persian, and no there is not much dispute at all about this.

OK

Turks are a mixture of their tribes from the Mongolian steppes and every white race they could find and rape, including Armenians, Greeks, Bulgarians, Georgians, Assyrians.

OK

What do we eat that is authentic Armenian cuisine and exclusive from European culture or cuisine? nothing at all. I wont even address the other aspects you mentioned because you gave no specifics at all. Now give me specific examples of cultural expamples of Armenians which you find "un-European" and I will adress them one by one.

I'm sure there are a few (but not many) things that fit being Armenian alone....eech comes to mind...but again this is also a very regional cuisine for us...I'm sure others may have some suggestions here...but this si also just my point - we are integrated into those around us in many ways - we have borrowed from them - them from us - its called diffusion. And its clear that we have much more in comon with our Middle Eastern & Caucasian neighbors then we do with the English, Germans, French and so on and so forth...

What type of Armenian are you, Bolsahye? Beirutsi? Halebtsi? Definately from the middle east because ill tell you this much, go to Armenia and tell people that you don't think we are European and they will take you for a madman.
Take your simple college textbook inspired bs arguments out of here and go learn something about the Armenian people and culture before you make yourself an authoritative source and start running your mouth and giving people the wrong impression from the garbage you talk.

Sorry it offends you - but I know that I am not off base here. My family is originally from Anatolia - Sivas and Constantinople. (for what it matters) I imagine that if you did a similar poll in Istanbul now you would find Turks claiming to be EUropean as well - so what does it really mean?

[winoman]

And I have seen far more instances where Armenians were greeted with respect and considered white since I monitor it as well. I have not seen them be called camel jockies.

no doubt you do monitor it...and get inspiration from it...etc...well obviously you get off and feel the need to associate with those who must grab onto something other then their own acheivement to feel superior about themselves...

[Anonymouse]

Often lefty liberal egalitarians like to claim that "white" and "race" are meaningless because they are "social constructs". Well, that begs the question for what isn't a social construct? The fact that humans attribute meanings to differences and use language and thought to classify and make distinctions only attests to this fact. However, where do these social constructs come from? The names given to things in reality are derived from those things within that reality. That one sees a black person one calls them black. One does not call them white.

Throughout history and throughout time all peoples have been conscious of the differences among population groups, and civilizations, from antiquity and even now, despite 50 plus years of egatalitarian fiction and fraud, and politically correct polemic of trying to blur the natural and cognitive ability to differentiate. Humans recognize differences when they see it and that is why historically they have referred to Asians as the yellow race, Caucasians as white, and Negroids as black. The politically correct lefty liberal egalitarian will have no such things. For example despite different hues of the color green, we still assign it as being green.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v96/Anonymouse/g1.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v96/Anonymouse/g4.jpg

To discriminate is to different based on assigning meanings to this or that thing. Thus it is only natural for humans to classify objects within their perceived reality as that is being human all too human. A person who is colorblind cannot make that distinction, but for the rest of us, it is too clear.

[Anonymouse]

no doubt you do monitor it...and get inspiration from it...etc...well obviously you get off and feel the need to associate with those who must grab onto something other then their own acheivement to feel superior about themselves...

Where did I say I associate with those "who must grab onto something other then their own acheivement to feel superior about themselves..."

If you claim you monitor it you should at least know that they are white nationalists, or separatists, and disagree when people call them "white supremacists". They make it quite clear as they try to avoid the usual smear by the liberal egalitarians who believe in colorblind bliss.

[ArmoBarbi]

The German thing was just an example to point out that we cant go by cultural influances when discussing origin or racial groupings, etc. Was that hard to understand?

Of course this argument is about origin and racial grouping. It was mentioned several times by people in this thread. Noone is arguing about what we eat or what musical instruments we use...

Its true that there is more than one theory about our origin, but I dont know of any that claims we are Middle Eastern or Asiatic over European. Even the theory that suggests that we are a mix of two tribes one being from the Balkans and one from Anatolia says that the Balkan tribe was the one that brought its culture to the other. Is there any question that the Balkans are European???

You think that because we eat lavash instead of English muffins we are more Middle Eastern than European? This is silly, Im sorry. Europeans are not this one little group that one can define by Aryan features or croissonts. This is why geographers have "Nordic Europe", "Mediterranian Europe", etc.

[winoman]

I've seen some Indians from India with the blackest skin imaginable - coall black. So we may call them Blacks - as we see and percieve their blackness...what however does this reeally tell us about who they are and who they are related to? Very little. It is their culture that matters. When we say racial distinctions are a social construct (and you agreeing to this is tantamount now to admiting that race has no real genetic/physical component!) - well it was because of convenience. Perhaps useful (fro rascists to make distinctions - who should be considered sub human and worthy of slavery and such -etc) - but not scientifically valid..

[Anonymouse]

I've seen some Indians from India with the blackest skin imaginable - coall black. So we may call them Blacks - as we see and percieve their blackness...what however does this reeally tell us about who they are and who they are related to? Very little. It is their culture that matters. When we say racial distinctions are a social construct (and you agreeing to this is tantamount now to admiting that race has no real genetic/physical component!) - well it was because of convenience. Perhaps useful (fro rascists to make distinctions - who should be considered sub human and worthy of slavery and such -etc) - but not scientifically valid..

Race does have a genetic component. When I said social construct I mean the names given. You are again misconstruing what I have said. And again culture is a product of the racial group. Not the other way around. If different races were not there to create different cultures how else did these cultures come to be?

The caste system in India is only evidence of racial dilution, and that at one time the Aryans invaded India and gave it the culture they bear.

Furthermore, why do lefty liberal egalitarians like to assume that because one recognizes racial distinctions and chooses not to mix that one is a fascist in support of slavery. Again another logical fallacy.

[winoman]

Where did I say I associate with those "who must grab onto something other then their own acheivement to feel superior about themselves..."

If you claim you monitor it you should at least know that they are white nationalists, or separatists, and disagree when people call them "white supremacists". They make it quite clear as they try to avoid the usual smear by the liberal egalitarians who believe in colorblind bliss.


a nice claim that does not bear itself out when you actually read the nastyness & trash that these people are touting..

[Anonymouse]

a nice claim that does not bear itself out when you actually read the nastyness & trash that these people are touting..

Talk about selective reading. In any event you are a liberal lefty egalitarian, you are "tolerant" but lefty liberal egalitarians are only tolerant with those whom they agree with. It doesn't take a genius to see how frustrated and hateful you get toward myself for my views. It appears if you were in government you would actually coerce people into "egalitarian bliss".

[winoman]

You think that because we eat lavash instead of English muffins we are more Middle Eastern than European? This is silly, Im sorry. Europeans are not this one little group that one can define by Aryan features or croissonts. This is why geographers have "Nordic Europe", "Mediterranian Europe", etc.

Its not silly - its really quite a fundemental thing...

[ArmoBarbi]

I dont think that he or anyone else here was saying that race is based strictly on the color of a persons skin. Some Armenians are pale and shine in the sun while others look as brown as a lunch bag. Whats your point?

How can you say that there is no genetic component? There are groups of people who can be linked by certain genes. For example, there is a xxxish tribe that lives in Africa and was not considered Semitic traditionally until a recent discovery of a certain gene in these people which only the xxxs have.

[Anonymouse]

I dont think that he or anyone else here was saying that race is based strictly on the color of a persons skin. Some Armenians are pale and shine in the sun while others look as brown as a lunch bag. Whats your point?

How can you say that there is no genetic component? There are groups of people who can be linked by certain genes. For example, there is a xxxish tribe that lives in Africa and was not considered Semitic traditionally until a recent discovery of a certain gene in these people which only the xxxs have.

There are significant racial differences. Take a look at law enforcement and DNA testing, which has led to convictions and acquittals.

[ArmoBarbi]

There are significant racial differences. Take a look at law enforcement and DNA testing, which has led to convictions and acquittals.

Just curious dear, what did I say in your world? lol

I was talking to winoman, and when I said "he" I meant you. I do not see how this post is a response to mine unless you misunderstood something.

[Anonymouse]

Just curious dear, what did I say in your world? lol

I was talking to winoman, and when I said "he" I meant you. I do not see how this post is a response to mine unless you misunderstood something.

Calm down "dear" I was only corroborating what you said. Last time I checked it is a forum, and as such we can respond to each other in a discussion. Don't whine about it.

Winston must be posting a long diatribe. He has been viewing this thread for 10 minutes.

[ArmoBarbi]

Calm down "dear" I was only corroborating what you said. Last time I checked it is a forum, and as such we can respond to each other in a discussion. Don't whine about it.

Dont call me dear if you need to put it in quotes. lol Im perfectly calm, just amused. I said nothing against the act of responding, but only that I didnt understand HOW your comment responded to mine.

[Anonymouse]

Dont call me dear if you need to put it in quotes. lol Im perfectly calm, just amused. I said nothing against the act of responding, but only that I didnt understand HOW your comment responded to mine.

Okay "dear" .

[winoman]

Race does have a genetic component.

When you can lay out all the genetic identifiers of the "white" race - you please let me know - OK

When I said social construct I mean the names given. You are again misconstruing what I have said. And again culture is a product of the racial group. Not the other way around. If different races were not there to create different cultures how else did these cultures come to be?

already answered - environment and circumstance....your connection of the term "race" with cultural development is spurious - no one outside of your stormfront buds makes this type of connection

Furthermore, why do lefty liberal egalitarians like to assume that because one recognizes racial distinctions and chooses not to mix that one is a fascist in support of slavery. Again another logical fallacy.

Don't know...but maybe - to some degree because of curious and telling statements such as this:

The caste system in India is only evidence of racial dilution, and that at one time the Aryans invaded India and gave it the culture they bear.

[Anonymouse]

When you can lay out all the genetic identifiers of the "white" race - you please let me know - OK

I am not a geneticist therefore I cannot speak genetics, however, the extensions of genetics speak to us in bloodtypes, in physical and cranial morphology, physiology, susceptibility to diseases. These are the external manifestations of genes. It is akin to a computer program. While we observe the computer program and it's functions we are not programmers thereofore not familiar with the programming language such as C++



already answered - environment and circumstance....your connection of the term "race" with cultural development is spurious - no one outside of your stormfront buds makes this type of connection

This is not about stormfront Mr Winston. This idea has existed before it was politically incorrect in academia to do so. That explains why society was desegregated at one point. Furthermore, you are suggesting that culture is separate from people. In otherwords, culture exists in a separate state untouched and somehow there, and it's just the people that come to fill it in. You will find not one anthropologist that will even claim that. What is politically correct is usually that the differing environments contributed to different cultures. But even that is weak, for why did the cultures differ is the key. And it is not environment, but the people that created that culture. The cold north argument of why European culture is so doesn't hold, for why did the Mongolian races develop a culture unique to themselves, why did they develop their own racial features that are different from whites?



Don't know...but maybe - to some degree because of curious and telling statements such as this:

What is telling about this statement?

[winoman]

The answer is environment and adapting to it - pure and simple. (both for physical and cultural developments). No one will argue against the fact that different groups of people exhibit different physical and genetic characteristics. What is at issue is how these are manifested accross populations - and how then can people be logically binned. Weel the traditional racial differentiations just don't cut it - pure and simple. While all kinds of subgroupings and such can be made - they exhibit themselves accross populations in different manners that do not confrom to commonly held racial divisions. Thus Armenians - a supposed Caucasoid people - have genetic features and genetic predispositions to certain disease vectors and such (such as Thallasemia - Mediterranean Anemia) and so on and so forth.

[Anonymouse]

The answer is environment and adapting to it - pure and simple. (both for physical and cultural developments). No one will argue against the fact that different groups of people exhibit different physical and genetic characteristics. What is at issue is how these are manifested accross populations - and how then can people be logically binned. Weel the traditional racial differentiations just don't cut it - pure and simple. While all kinds of subgroupings and such can be made - they exhibit themselves accross populations in different manners that do not confrom to commonly held racial divisions. Thus Armenians - a supposed Caucasoid people - have genetic features and genetic predispositions to certain disease vectors and such (such as Thallasemia - Mediterranean Anemia) and so on and so forth.

Making oneself pretend there are no differences, doesn't change the fact that there are differences, no matter where you attribute those differences.

And again, if the cold north gave Caucasoids their distinct features, how come the same cold north further east gave Mongoloids their distinct features?

And law enforcement investigators will differ as to race, since they use DNA testing on a regular basis which identifies the race of a suspect or victim.

[TigranJamharian]

I say drop the whole race issue, this issue is far more complicated than you can convince Winoman to believe and we won't change his beliefs through an internet forum but only he can, and I am surprised at where he stands on this, being that he claims he is an intelligent person.

Now that we have setteled as i predicted that you are Bolsahye, I will stop this discussion here, Bolsahyes as I see it are quite ridiculous, the culture you have and pursue is not much else besides Turkish, you know this quite well but seem to hope that there is still some similarity to true Armeinan culture.

I will tell you this, you do not possess the ability to argue with me on the cultural and racial makeup of Armenians as a whole seeing as you are a heavily turkish influenced "Armeinan." Before you go and spend some time in Armenia and aquaint yourself with our true culture don't come back here and talk.

And simply the fact that you mentioned we are related to Kurds is beyond me, i dont understand why i even lend any credance to your arguments. Saying we have Persian influence is understandable as our Kingdom dynasties have been closely link throughout the years, not any more than with those of the Romans or Byzantines, but sitll, ill let that go, but Kurds? are you out of your mind.

Go educate youself before you come back here and blabber nonsense out of your mouth and make the rest of us look bad.

[hyebruin]

i thought this might be relevant and quite interesting!


Aryan Roots Save Armenians from Nazi Extermination
Topics

Grigor Hakobyan::Saturday March 1, 2003 05:07PM
When the Nazis came to power in 1933, under the leadership of Adolf Hitler, various cultural minorities were targeted for persecution and harassment. One of these minorities was the Armenians.
The Turkish government of that time took an opportunity to launch a propaganda campaign against Armenians living in Germany and the rest of Europe, where they claimed that Armenians were Semite and no different from gypsies. They encouraged the persecution of Armenians by planting falsified information on Armenian history, culture and its origins.

The times were severe for Armenians of Europe, and particularly of Germany, where a second Genocide seemed to be on the horizon. To counter the anti-Armenian propaganda in Germany, the Armenian community in Potsdam, Germany published an academic book on Armenian studies called Armeniertum-Arivertum, meaning Armenism-Aryanism. Three thousand copies were printed under the leadership of Artashes Abeghyan in cooperation with German Armenologists Yohannes Lepsus and Paul Rohrbakh.

Many German Orientologists like Hans Haynrikh Sheder, Yohannes Fon Lears, Karl Rot, Rev. Gerhard Klinge, and Evar Shteer, took part in this project by submitting their academic findings about the Indo-European origins of Armenians and their Aryan linguistic identity in this book.

The book was republished in 1942-1943 in Shtugart, when the Turkish propaganda reemerged in the German press. Around the same time, Armenologist Hyek Asatrian, in cooperation with Armenian military General Garegin Njdeh, published a book called Armenia-the Cradle of Aryans in Asia.

After those publications, the German Interior Ministry issued a document recognizing Armenians as an Aryan nation. Thanks to the academics and active participation of Armenian community in Germany, the threat of a genocide of Armenians in Europe vanished.

Source: Armenism-Aryanism, Armenian reprint by Uri Xachatryan, Aram Aleksanyan and Alina Sonoyan, Yerevan, 2001.
<< Opinion: Turkish Gov't Should Be Tried | Reply | Erebuni-The Museum of Antiquity >>

here's the link:
http://www.usanogh.com/articles/article.php?story_id=155&author_id=20

[Anonymouse]

i thought this might be relevant and quite interesting!


Aryan Roots Save Armenians from Nazi Extermination
Topics

Grigor Hakobyan::Saturday March 1, 2003 05:07PM
When the Nazis came to power in 1933, under the leadership of Adolf Hitler, various cultural minorities were targeted for persecution and harassment. One of these minorities was the Armenians.
The Turkish government of that time took an opportunity to launch a propaganda campaign against Armenians living in Germany and the rest of Europe, where they claimed that Armenians were Semite and no different from gypsies. They encouraged the persecution of Armenians by planting falsified information on Armenian history, culture and its origins.

The times were severe for Armenians of Europe, and particularly of Germany, where a second Genocide seemed to be on the horizon. To counter the anti-Armenian propaganda in Germany, the Armenian community in Potsdam, Germany published an academic book on Armenian studies called Armeniertum-Arivertum, meaning Armenism-Aryanism. Three thousand copies were printed under the leadership of Artashes Abeghyan in cooperation with German Armenologists Yohannes Lepsus and Paul Rohrbakh.

Many German Orientologists like Hans Haynrikh Sheder, Yohannes Fon Lears, Karl Rot, Rev. Gerhard Klinge, and Evar Shteer, took part in this project by submitting their academic findings about the Indo-European origins of Armenians and their Aryan linguistic identity in this book.

The book was republished in 1942-1943 in Shtugart, when the Turkish propaganda reemerged in the German press. Around the same time, Armenologist Hyek Asatrian, in cooperation with Armenian military General Garegin Njdeh, published a book called Armenia-the Cradle of Aryans in Asia.

After those publications, the German Interior Ministry issued a document recognizing Armenians as an Aryan nation. Thanks to the academics and active participation of Armenian community in Germany, the threat of a genocide of Armenians in Europe vanished.

Source: Armenism-Aryanism, Armenian reprint by Uri Xachatryan, Aram Aleksanyan and Alina Sonoyan, Yerevan, 2001.
<< Opinion: Turkish Gov't Should Be Tried | Reply | Erebuni-The Museum of Antiquity >>

here's the link:
http://www.usanogh.com/articles/article.php?story_id=155&author_id=20

Thank you for the link although I have known this for sometime.

[ArmoBarbi]

Good job, girlie! Armenologist - Ive been looking for a proper name for a scholar of Armenian studies. Im going to be an Armenologist! I love it!

Also the other info was good :) hehehe

[winoman]

Yes something to be proud of....for some people...yeah Hitler loved us! yippee!

[loseyourname]

Wow. I'm amazed that you guys care so much about this. If it were discovered in the next 20 years that Armenians were of a non-Caucasian background, would you suddenly cease to be proud of your culture? Who the hell cares? Achieve something your damn self to be proud of, regardless of what you call yourself and what color your eyes are.

For the record, Mousy, I'd say you look halfway between Spanish and Moroccan. Whatever difference that makes.

[Anonymouse]

For the record, Mousy, I'd say you look halfway between Spanish and Moroccan. Whatever difference that makes.

Really? That's a first. I've been told Italian, French, hell, even Armenian, but never Moroccan.

And I will of course disagree. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v96/Anonymouse/laugh.gif

[thedebutante]

Really? That's a first. I've been told Italian, French, hell, even Armenian, but never Moroccan.

And I will of course disagree. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v96/Anonymouse/laugh.gif


Mouse, now that loser enlightened me, I think that you look black. What do you know, Armenians must not be white after all. Eh, you learn something new everyday.

[winoman]

Mouse, now that loser enlightened me, I think that you look black. What do you know, Armenians must not be white after all. Eh, you learn something new everyday.

..and some just never learn...

[thedebutante]

..and some just never learn...


Ara, eli sksav es hyevane.

Just for the record, notice how wino starts it every single time.

[spiral]

Just for the record, you need to grow up.

[thedebutante]

Just for the record, you need to grow up.


I only 'need' to do two things, live and die.

[hyebruin]

Ara, eli sksav es hyevane.

Just for the record, notice how wino starts it every single time.

deb, in case you didn't know, winston doesn't speak armenian; and for the record i must say! if i was born black i'd be DAMN PROUD of my ebony skin! but since i'm NOT, and believe me i am NOT! :rolleyes: i am very proud of my white skin! why??? cuz it's MINE! that's why! i love my eye color, i love my hair color --heck there isn't anything i don't love about me! :laugh: :laugh: ok, all kidding aside, i am so happy with my skin color and so very health conscious that i REFUSE WITH A PASSION to get a tan! yeah huh!! i am not buying into the 'hollywood in thing'; i also know that blue or green contacts will look great with my long NATURALLY NEVER DYED dark hair, but again i refuse to wear it! (maybe one day to a masquerade!) but until then i am very very VERY happy with my big medium brown eyes! and why should i or anyone else not be proud of their skin? if a black beauty can call herself brown sugar or dark chocolate, then i like to consider myself white chocolate with a hint of macademia nut :wave:

[thedebutante]

bruin, you are beautiful. and yes i know he doesnt speak armenian.

[hyebruin]

bruin, you are beautiful. and yes i know he doesnt speak armenian.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: i was shooting for funny, but i'll accept that! :p

*takes a bow* :o :o :o

[Anonymouse]

Ara, eli sksav es hyevane.

Just for the record, notice how wino starts it every single time.

Oh he's just a big baby thats all. Don't mind him.

[CatWoman]

and ladies, ladies, wait a MINUTE! you can be my bride's maids in my hell wedding anyday... winoman you can be the kavor... LOL!

it is so discouraging when i think about anony... just makes my whole perspective of men become a toilet flushing http://www.mysmilie.de/english/green/smilies/disgusting/img/006.gif

Your HELL wedding? So you've been THAT BAD!! I'm not sure I can make it, so far I'm only available for heaven weddings... http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/engel/angel-smiley-008.gif


Ok back to "white people"... Wino just a quick question.
On the applications/forms where it asks for your nationality are you one of those people who puts 'other' and writes 'Armenian' next to it lol? Cause you know, my high school HISTORY TEACHER laughed at this Armenian student in our class when she put 'other' for nationality on this survey we were doing... He said Armenians are white. So seriously, how do you answer that?

[ArmoBarbi]

deb, in case you didn't know, winston doesn't speak armenian; and for the record i must say! if i was born black i'd be DAMN PROUD of my ebony skin! but since i'm NOT, and believe me i am NOT! :rolleyes: i am very proud of my white skin! why??? cuz it's MINE! that's why! i love my eye color, i love my hair color --heck there isn't anything i don't love about me! :laugh: :laugh: ok, all kidding aside, i am so happy with my skin color and so very health conscious that i REFUSE WITH A PASSION to get a tan! yeah huh!! i am not buying into the 'hollywood in thing'; i also know that blue or green contacts will look great with my long NATURALLY NEVER DYED dark hair, but again i refuse to wear it! (maybe one day to a masquerade!) but until then i am very very VERY happy with my big medium brown eyes! and why should i or anyone else not be proud of their skin? if a black beauty can call herself brown sugar or dark chocolate, then i like to consider myself white chocolate with a hint of macademia nut :wave:

:laugh:

Ditto 100% :)

[ArmoBarbi]

Your HELL wedding? So you've been THAT BAD!! I'm not sure I can make it, so far I'm only available for heaven weddings... http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/engel/angel-smiley-008.gif


Ok back to "white people"... Wino just a quick question.
On the applications/forms where it asks for your nationality are you one of those people who puts 'other' and writes 'Armenian' next to it lol? Cause you know, my high school HISTORY TEACHER laughed at this Armenian student in our class when she put 'other' for nationality on this survey we were doing... He said Armenians are white. So seriously, how do you answer that?

When I first came to US (at eleven) I wasnt familiar with the different groups on those forms, and when I had to fill one out in class I wasnt sure what they even meant! I was learning English mind you... I had to ask a teacher and she told me to put the one with European in it. lol

They didnt have "white non-hispanic" like most I see now. Anyway, Ive learned since then of course, but Im so glad that the teacher knew what she was talking about! :)

[Krikor Ant]

First. I would like to introduce mayself.

I am an armenian from Venezuela. My grandparents are from Gurun/Sivas in central Anatolia. I have been checking the site for some time, so I finally decided to post in here.

About this tread:

It is quite funny. Because as far as I know there are only four main "races":

white
black
yellow
red (american indians)

There is not "armenian" race....... armenian is an ethnic group.
Those who are saying that our culture is middle eastern forgot a very special thing. That our ancestors fought and died for........ something that is very important...... our RELIGION. we are CHRISTIANS.

Beside that we speak an indoeuropean language......... our history, after the crusades, has been linked to Europe........ and we as armenians never wanted to be identificated with arabs, turks or kurds.......... never.......

I know that now in the states it is "cool" to be black or anything else but white............. but you have to accept the facts.......... It is our past and you cant change it just because you want......... My ancestors died because they didnt fit into the "turkish o arab" muslim culture......... while french, english, russian and even some germans tried to protect them.....

Btw. when the arabs captured the last armenian kingdom where did our las king go????.......... Paris.......... where is he buried .......... in Paris........ who paid his rescue to the mameluks......... the king of Castile (or Aragon, Im not sure)............ In the XVII, XVIII century who claimed the armenian trone, but never got it, as descendant of the lasta armenian ruler, and the pakradunis????........... the dukes of Lorreine...........

Who crowned Leon I king of Cilicia????....... the archbishop of Mainz........
Long time ago........... all of Anatolia, the Caucasus, and Siria was part of Europe............ but now we armenians are the only survivals of that "wide" Europe................ All along the history of Europe we have always been seen as part of it.......... check and read our history once again.

Only the US has that vision of a "short" Europe, and it is just for political reasons....... the US doesnt want a strong and united Europe, so the want to convince those europeans, that are on the border line that they are not, so the wont join, eventualy the E.U.......... thats the reason.

I have heard even somo sources that claim that half Ukraine is not part of "Europe"......... what we must know is that Europe is not a geografical term, since there is no fisical diferences between Europe an Asia. Europe is a cultural, political and most of all...... HISTORICAL......term........ a group of countries and people that are quite diferent form each other (a greek and an irish are VERY diferent) but that share comun roots and past.

[loseyourname]

Mouse, now that loser enlightened me, I think that you look black. What do you know, Armenians must not be white after all. Eh, you learn something new everyday.

You guys are a bunch of dern fools. Moroccans are hardly black. In fact, the Moroccans I've known have olive skin and green or blue eyes.

[nunechka]

look people... all i have to say is this... in my fathers words "THOSE EUROPEAN WHITE PEOPLE WERE MONKIES ON TREES, WHEN ARMENIANS WERE PHILOSOPHERS, SCIENTISTS, LINGUISTS, ARTISTS, ETC..."

we are not like them, we are not this artificial "white"... we ARE THE orignial, Indigenous PEOPLE of that LAND! we are from the CAUCASIAS, we ARE FROM MEDITERNANIA! WE ARE NOT from some GOD forsaken scandinavian, IVANIAN (RUSSIAN), GERMIC, or any other culture. WE ARE ARMENIAN! the reason we associate ourselves with europe is because it is POWERFUL and mostly populated with good, intelligent, progressive people... HOWEVER! get it through your HEAD! the ARMENIANS and the GREEKS are the same in this respect... we have more in commen with GREEKS! then any european culture, and GREEKS! dont give a SH!T if someone says, YOU ARE NOT WHITE! because they KNOW WHAT THEY ARE!, they are also the same! MEDITERANIAN! CAUCASIAN!

YOU people, have the THICKEST SKULLS i have ever seen...

and you, NEW PERSON! from venesuela, it isnt "cool" to be black or white, or blue or green... ITS THE PERCEPTION of people, that armenians are not WHITE! and since in the US things are either black or white, well which side are you going to pick? the fact of the matter is that ARMENIANS were the first people along with the greeks, and the persians to inhabit the lands, for natural reasons or cultivation, and such...

anony you should stay out of this conversation, this is for grownups... now go, run along and play with the other childern, not in this forum...

[winoman]

American Anthropological Association
Statement on "Race"

(May 17, 1998)

The following statement was adopted by the Executive Board of the American Anthropological Association, acting on a draft prepared by a committee of representative American anthropologists. It does not reflect a consensus of all members of the AAA, as individuals vary in their approaches to the study of "race." We believe that it represents generally the contemporary thinking and scholarly positions of a majority of anthropologists.

In the United States both scholars and the general public have been conditioned to viewing human races as natural and separate divisions within the human species based on visible physical differences. With the vast expansion of scientific knowledge in this century, however, it has become clear that human populations are not unambiguous, clearly demarcated, biologically distinct groups. Evidence from the analysis of genetics (e.g., DNA) indicates that most physical variation, about 94%, lies within so-called racial groups. Conventional geographic "racial" groupings differ from one another only in about 6% of their genes. This means that there is greater variation within "racial" groups than between them. In neighboring populations there is much overlapping of genes and their phenotypic (physical) expressions. Throughout history whenever different groups have come into contact, they have interbred. The continued sharing of genetic materials has maintained all of humankind as a single species.

Physical variations in any given trait tend to occur gradually rather than abruptly over geographic areas. And because physical traits are inherited independently of one another, knowing the range of one trait does not predict the presence of others. For example, skin color varies largely from light in the temperate areas in the north to dark in the tropical areas in the south; its intensity is not related to nose shape or hair texture. Dark skin may be associated with frizzy or kinky hair or curly or wavy or straight hair, all of which are found among different indigenous peoples in tropical regions. These facts render any attempt to establish lines of division among biological populations both arbitrary and subjective.

Historical research has shown that the idea of "race" has always carried more meanings than mere physical differences; indeed, physical variations in the human species have no meaning except the social ones that humans put on them. Today scholars in many fields argue that "race" as it is understood in the United States of America was a social mechanism invented during the 18th century to refer to those populations brought together in colonial America: the English and other European settlers, the conquered Indian peoples, and those peoples of Africa brought in to provide slave labor.

From its inception, this modern concept of "race" was modeled after an ancient theorem of the Great Chain of Being, which posited natural categories on a hierarchy established by God or nature. Thus "race" was a mode of classification linked specifically to peoples in the colonial situation. It subsumed a growing ideology of inequality devised to rationalize European attitudes and treatment of the conquered and enslaved peoples. Proponents of slavery in particular during the 19th century used "race" to justify the retention of slavery. The ideology magnified the differences among Europeans, Africans, and Indians, established a rigid hierarchy of socially exclusive categories underscored and bolstered unequal rank and status differences, and provided the rationalization that the inequality was natural or God-given. The different physical traits of African-Americans and Indians became markers or symbols of their status differences.

As they were constructing US society, leaders among European-Americans fabricated the cultural/behavioral characteristics associated with each "race," linking superior traits with Europeans and negative and inferior ones to blacks and Indians. Numerous arbitrary and fictitious beliefs about the different peoples were institutionalized and deeply embedded in American thought.

Early in the 19th century the growing fields of science began to reflect the public consciousness about human differences. Differences among the "racial" categories were projected to their greatest extreme when the argument was posed that Africans, Indians, and Europeans were separate species, with Africans the least human and closer taxonomically to apes.

Ultimately "race" as an ideology about human differences was subsequently spread to other areas of the world. It became a strategy for dividing, ranking, and controlling colonized people used by colonial powers everywhere. But it was not limited to the colonial situation. In the latter part of the 19th century it was employed by Europeans to rank one another and to justify social, economic, and political inequalities among their peoples. During World War II, the Nazis under Adolf Hitler enjoined the expanded ideology of "race" and "racial" differences and took them to a logical end: the extermination of 11 million people of "inferior races" (e.g., xxxs, Gypsies, Africans, homosexuals, and so forth) and other unspeakable brutalities of the Holocaust.

"Race" thus evolved as a worldview, a body of prejudgments that distorts our ideas about human differences and group behavior. Racial beliefs constitute myths about the diversity in the human species and about the abilities and behavior of people homogenized into "racial" categories. The myths fused behavior and physical features together in the public mind, impeding our comprehension of both biological variations and cultural behavior, implying that both are genetically determined. Racial myths bear no relationship to the reality of human capabilities or behavior. Scientists today find that reliance on such folk beliefs about human differences in research has led to countless errors.

At the end of the 20th century, we now understand that human cultural behavior is learned, conditioned into infants beginning at birth, and always subject to modification. No human is born with a built-in culture or language. Our temperaments, dispositions, and personalities, regardless of genetic propensities, are developed within sets of meanings and values that we call "culture." Studies of infant and early childhood learning and behavior attest to the reality of our cultures in forming who we are.

It is a basic tenet of anthropological knowledge that all normal human beings have the capacity to learn any cultural behavior. The American experience with immigrants from hundreds of different language and cultural backgrounds who have acquired some version of American culture traits and behavior is the clearest evidence of this fact. Moreover, people of all physical variations have learned different cultural behaviors and continue to do so as modern transportation moves millions of immigrants around the world.

How people have been accepted and treated within the context of a given society or culture has a direct impact on how they perform in that society. The "racial" worldview was invented to assign some groups to perpetual low status, while others were permitted access to privilege, power, and wealth. The tragedy in the United States has been that the policies and practices stemming from this worldview succeeded all too well in constructing unequal populations among Europeans, Native Americans, and peoples of African descent. Given what we know about the capacity of normal humans to achieve and function within any culture, we conclude that present-day inequalities between so-called "racial" groups are not consequences of their biological inheritance but products of historical and contemporary social, economic, educational, and political circumstances.

[winoman]

AAPA Statement on Biological Aspects of Race
Published in the American Journal of Physical Anthropology, vol. 101, pp 569-570, 1996
PREAMBLE
As scientists who study human evolution and variation, we believe that we have an obligation to share with other scientists and the general public our current understanding of the structure of human variation from a biological perspective. Popular conceptualizations of race are derived from 19th and early 20th century scientific formulations. These old racial categories were based on externally visible traits, primarily skin color, features of the face, and the shape and size of the head and body, and the underlying skeleton. They were often imbued with nonbiological attributes, based on social constructions of race. These categories of race are rooted in the scientific traditions of the 19th century, and in even earlier philosophical traditions which presumed that immutable visible traits can predict the measure of all other traits in an individual or a population. Such notions have often been used to support racist doctrines. Yet old racial concepts persist as social conventions that foster institutional discrimination. The expression of prejudice may or may not undermine material well-being, but it does involve the mistreatment of people and thus it often is psychologically distressing and socially damaging. Scientists should try to keep the results of their research from being used in a biased way that would serve discriminatory ends.

POSITION
We offer the following points as revisions of the 1964 UNESCO statement on race:

1. All humans living today belong to a single species, Homo sapiens, and share a common descent. Although there are differences of opinion regarding how and where different human groups diverged or fused to form new ones from a common ancestral group, all living populations in each of the earth's geographic areas have evolved from that ancestral group over the same amount of time. Much of the biological variation among populations involves modest degrees of variation in the frequency of shared traits. Human populations have at times been isolated, but have never genetically diverged enough to produce any biological barriers to mating between members of different populations.

2. Biological differences between human beings reflect both hereditary factors and the influence of natural and social environments. In most cases, these differences are due to the interaction of both. The degree to which environment or heredity affects any particular trait varies greatly.

3. There is great genetic diversity within all human populations. Pure races, in the sense of genetically homogenous populations, do not exist in the human species today, nor is there any evidence that they have ever existed in the past.

4. There are obvious physical differences between populations living in different geographic areas of the world. Some of these differences are strongly inherited and others, such as body size and shape, are strongly influenced by nutrition, way of life, and other aspects of the environment. Genetic differences between populations commonly consist of differences in the frequencies of all inherited traits, including those that are environmentally malleable.

5. For centuries, scholars have sought to comprehend patterns in nature by classifying living things. The only living species in the human family, Homo sapiens, has become a highly diversified global array of populations. The geographic pattern of genetic variation within this array is complex, and presents no major discontinuity. Humanity cannot be classified into discrete geographic categories with absolute boundaries. Furthermore, the complexities of human history make it difficult to determine the position of certain groups in classifications. Multiplying subcategories cannot correct the inadequacies of these classifications.

Generally, the traits used to characterize a population are either independently inherited or show only varying degrees of association with one another within each population. Therefore, the combination of these traits in an individual very commonly deviates from the average combination in the population. This fact renders untenable the idea of discrete races made up chiefly of typical representatives.

6. In humankind as well as in other animals, the genetic composition of each population is subject over time to the modifying influence of diverse factors. These include natural selection, promoting adaptation of the population to the environment; mutations, involving modifications in genetic material; admixture, leading to genetic exchange between local populations, and randomly changing frequencies of genetic characteristics from one generation to another. The human features which have universal biological value for the survival of the species are not known to occur more frequently in one population than in any other. Therefore it is meaningless from the biological point of view to attribute a general inferiority or superiority to this or to that race.

7. The human species has a past rich in migration, in territorial expansions, and in contractions. As a consequence, we are adapted to many of the earth's environments in general, but to none in particular. For many millennia, human progress in any field has been based on culture and not on genetic improvement.

Mating between members of different human groups tends to diminish differences between groups, and has played a very important role in human history. Wherever different human populations have come in contact, such matings have taken place. Obstacles to such interaction have been social and cultural, not biological. The global process of urbanization, coupled with intercontinental migrations, has the potential to reduce the differences among all human populations.

8. Partly as a result of gene flow, the hereditary characteristics of human populations are in a state of perpetual flux. Distinctive local populations are continually coming into and passing out of existence. Such populations do not correspond to breeds of domestic animals, which have been produced by artificial selection over many generations for specific human purposes.

9. The biological consequences of mating depend only on the individual genetic makeup of the couple, and not on their racial classifications. Therefore, no biological justification exists for restricting intermarriage between persons of different racial classifications.

10. There is no necessary concordance between biological characteristics and culturally defined groups. On every continent, there are diverse populations that differ in language, economy, and culture. There is no national, religious, linguistic or cultural group or economic class that constitutes a race. However, human beings who speak the same language and share the same culture frequently select each other as mates, with the result that there is often some degree of correspondence between the distribution of physical traits on the one hand and that of linguistic and cultural traits on the other. But there is no causal linkage between these physical and behavioral traits, and therefore it is not justifiable to attribute cultural characteristics to genetic inheritance.

11. Physical, cultural and social environments influence the behavioral differences among individuals in society. Although heredity influences the behavioral variability of individuals within a given population, it does not affect the ability of any such population to function in a given social setting. The genetic capacity for intellectual development is one of the biological traits of our species essential for its survival. This genetic capacity is known to differ among individuals. The peoples of the world today appear to possess equal biological potential for assimilating any human culture. Racist political doctrines find no foundation in scientific knowledge concerning modern or past human populations.

[winoman]

The notion of race is nearly as problematic from a scientific point of view as it is from a social one. European physical anthropologists of the 17th and 18th centuries proposed various systems of racial classifications based on such observable characteristics as skin color, hair type, body proportions, and skull measurements, essentially codifying the perceived differences among broad geographic populations of humans. The traditional terms for these populationsCaucasoid (or Caucasian), Mongoloid, Negroid, and in some systems Australoidare now controversial in both technical and nontechnical usage, and in some cases they may well be considered offensive. (Caucasian does retain a certain currency in American English, but it is used almost exclusively to mean “white” or “European” rather than “belonging to the Caucasian race,” a group that includes a variety of peoples generally categorized as nonwhite.) The biological aspect of race is described today not in observable physical features but rather in such genetic characteristics as blood groups and metabolic processes, and the groupings indicated by these factors seldom coincide very neatly with those put forward by earlier physical anthropologists. Citing this and other pointssuch as the fact that a person who is considered black in one society might be nonblack in anothermany cultural anthropologists now consider race to be more a social or mental construct than an objective biological fact.

[nunechka]

i am with winoman on this one...

[winoman]

Ok back to "white people"... Wino just a quick question.
On the applications/forms where it asks for your nationality are you one of those people who puts 'other' and writes 'Armenian' next to it lol?

lol - yeah - have to admit I've doen this before...and it created a bit of controversy at one time as I was listed in minority category and I insisted on keeping such based on my (persecuted etc) Armenian background...now I just check "other" if its offered...and if it isn't I ussually take issue...lol...(actually I ussualy don't much care about it either way...)

[nunechka]

its probabyl better to do this when the census comes around so that we can get a better number for the population of armenians, this is actually what ASBAREZ advised us to do in 1990... plus we shouldn't be lumped in the same category as those extra wonderful southern whites who would linch and kill us if they had their way, they would even through us out of this country, because we are immigrants... isnt that great? LOL!

[winoman]

I actually find it a bit sick when I come accross Armenians who get caught up in this whole "white Pride" racial thing...haven't they learned that this - in part - is the type of xenophobia that caused the Turks to turn on us - Pan Turanism and such...yet these people can't figure it out - its this binning of "us" and "them" that is at the root of the problem...and for a people who have suffered far to long being "thems" - you woudl think that perhaps we have learned a lesson or two (and not - let us jump on the "superior" bandwagon and put others down....no - not quite the correct conclusion to the lesson...

[Anonymouse]

Aww would you look at that, an egalitarian tea party. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v96/Anonymouse/laugh.gif

[Anonymouse]

George W. Gill
Professor of Anthropology, University of Wyoming

Why do we feel we should be able to study Kennewick Man? Ancient human skeletal remains are a valuable source of scientific information and are protected as archeological resources under federal law (the Archaeological Resources Protection Act). As a trained physical anthropologist at a state institution, I have the legal and ethical responsibility to curate, study, protect, and sometimes repatriate the human skeletons that come to my laboratory. From human skeletons, we can derive information relating to human diseases, injury, warfare, origins, migrations, and gene flow. The more ancient skeletons as well as the better preserved ones tend to be more important skeletons scientifically because of the vast amount of new information that they can provide.

Kennewick Man may be one of the most important skeletons ever unearthed in North America. It is a very ancient skeleton and therefore not a close relative of any human alive today. Thus, claims of cultural or biological affinity by any group existing today are so tenuous that they should not be allowed to prevent scientific study of this important find. The skeleton should remain in the domain of all humanity and not be claimed by any single federal agency or any single religious or cultural group. It should be studied by all qualified scientists whose research might be able to provide new knowledge from the secrets that these ancient bones contain.

What do I personally expect to learn from studying the Kennewick skeleton? I am a forensic anthropologist with a research focus on skeletal race attribution (learning ancestry from bone traits). Most of the successful methods that I have developed and published in leading journals relate to distinguishing American Indians from whites skeletally. Certain single approaches are over 90 percent accurate in separating modern whites from modern American Indians. Interestingly, traits of both of these populations are found among individuals of the early Archaic and Paleo-Indian period. Certainly the Kennewick skeleton should be assessed with regard to these trait occurrences.

These are not the multivariate, cranial-measurement approaches used by most other physical anthropologists who study ancestry. They constitute a somewhat independent approach. My approach would provide another independent means of determining ancestry through a combination of different kinds of trait evaluations. In short, my approach will hopefully provide us with insight to help answer the question of who Kennewick Man's closest relatives were in regard to the major racial elements of today.

[nunechka]

we are a people as old as time, however we are still too savage (generally) to understand this. if we were like the europeans, we would not have a country that is living under poverty... we would have PAVED ROADS! we would have water and electricity in all parts of Armenia... BUT NOPE! unlike europe, or the US, armenia is FAR FAAAR behind this type of progress, rather the concern of the people in authoritative positions is their own personal life style, and the general public is concerned about how "white" they are or how they are related to europeans... come on people, where those europeans when ARMENIAN EXISTED!

LOL! i cant imagine a french person tlaking about that... they dont need to, they dont have a confidence problem... niether do the Greeks, they also do not have to prove to others that they are "white"...

its insane... this has got to stop... stop fighting over something that does NOTHING to progress our nation, our culture, or anything good... its nothing, its a word that is accepted in the 21st century as ebing "superior"... and when its accepted to be mexican what are we going to say, "we are aztec"?

come on people... grow up, shape up, and lets move our people into the 21st century, lets help armenia have paved roads, lets bring back the water and electricity to our viligas, which the governt has sold to other nations...

being white doesnt make you a better person, being white jsut reminds us of how ignorant the population of this world is... we are a culture that is slowly disintegrating, we are not a lot, and this nonesence about white/black is an American thing, not an Armenian thing...

[loseyourname]

Physical anthropologists have amazingly ingenius techniques for telling a skeleton's racial background. You guys really seem to be talking past each other. One party is simply stating that races exist and that they are biologically determined, and the other is warning of the placing of value judgements on this fact. Both of you are right in these regards.

[Anonymouse]

we are a people as old as time, however we are still too savage (generally) to understand this. if we were like the europeans, we would not have a country that is living under poverty... we would have PAVED ROADS! we would have water and electricity in all parts of Armenia... BUT NOPE! unlike europe, or the US, armenia is FAR FAAAR behind this type of progress, rather the concern of the people in authoritative positions is their own personal life style, and the general public is concerned about how "white" they are or how they are related to europeans... come on people, where those europeans when ARMENIAN EXISTED!

LOL! i cant imagine a french person tlaking about that... they dont need to, they dont have a confidence problem... niether do the Greeks, they also do not have to prove to others that they are "white"...

its insane... this has got to stop... stop fighting over something that does NOTHING to progress our nation, our culture, or anything good... its nothing, its a word that is accepted in the 21st century as ebing "superior"... and when its accepted to be mexican what are we going to say, "we are aztec"?

come on people... grow up, shape up, and lets move our people into the 21st century, lets help armenia have paved roads, lets bring back the water and electricity to our viligas, which the governt has sold to other nations...

being white doesnt make you a better person, being white jsut reminds us of how ignorant the population of this world is... we are a culture that is slowly disintegrating, we are not a lot, and this nonesence about white/black is an American thing, not an Armenian thing...

Another five paragraph post which doesn't say anything again. This isn't about who is better. It's not, contrary to your preconceived notions of what you have been taught since birth from every orifice of communication. It's about acknowledging the reality of differences, which you would like to ignore, but which doesn't change the fact of a world of differences.

[Anonymouse]

Physical anthropologists have amazingly ingenius techniques for telling a skeleton's racial background. You guys really seem to be talking past each other. One party is simply stating that races exist and that they are biologically determined, and the other is warning of the placing of value judgements on this fact. Both of you are right in these regards.

No one is saying one is better than another. I am at least saying that there are differences that cannot be ignored.

[winoman]

So there may be skeletal differences - and other differences (I've never denied that there are differences among different populations -and neither do Anthros) - but where we (? Europeans? whoever...) and various Indian groups differ in certain areas - we are similarin others - and this is repeated willy nilly accorss the globle sith different groups - to the point that you cannot bin 3 groups (or what have you) and say - all these are like this - and all those are like that - etc - just doesn't work....that is the point...

[winoman]

No one is saying one is better than another. I am at least saying that there are differences that cannot be ignored.

Again - please list for us all the determining characteristics of the "white" (or whatever) genotype....you can't do so without there being reams of exceptions - to the extent that the exceptions absolutly break the rule - and that is the point - so go ahead show us....

[Anonymouse]

Again - please list for us all the determining characteristics of the "white" (or whatever) genotype....you can't do so without there being reams of exceptions - to the extent that the exceptions absolutly break the rule - and that is the point - so go ahead show us....

Aww, don't you look cute? I already said I'm not a geneticist. I'm sure I can be like you and try to find some article that supports my claim, and there are alot, and post it. But I will not. In fact, if you go to the race (http://forum.armenianclub.com/showthread.php?t=2328) thread, that is all the proof you will need. Genetic differences are the underlying language like the programming language of a computer, but we see it in physiological and morphological differences, in intelligence, in susceptibility to disease.

[Anonymouse]

So, since nunechka, and winoman contend that there is no such thing as race, therefore calling someone black or white is not correct. In fact, they have even gone so far as to say that one who is black in one culture may appear white in another. Either there really are not pigmentation differences, or we are all colorblind. So I guess winoman and nunechka would say that this person is in fact white according to them.

http://www.usm.edu/crdp/html/cd/vmustacheman.jpg

[Anonymouse]

Here is a famous white rapper.

http://www.smh.com.au/ffxImage/urlpicture_id_1050777170040_2003/04/20/ent_fiftycent2104.jpg

Here is a black person who ran for president and lost because he is black.

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Video/040327/nn_kod_kerry_040327.275w.jpg

[TigranJamharian]

we are a people as old as time, however we are still too savage (generally) to understand this. if we were like the europeans, we would not have a country that is living under poverty... we would have PAVED ROADS! we would have water and electricity in all parts of Armenia... BUT NOPE! unlike europe, or the US, armenia is FAR FAAAR behind this type of progress, rather the concern of the people in authoritative positions is their own personal life style, and the general public is concerned about how "white" they are or how they are related to europeans... come on people, where those europeans when ARMENIAN EXISTED!

LOL! i cant imagine a french person tlaking about that... they dont need to, they dont have a confidence problem... niether do the Greeks, they also do not have to prove to others that they are "white"...

its insane... this has got to stop... stop fighting over something that does NOTHING to progress our nation, our culture, or anything good... its nothing, its a word that is accepted in the 21st century as ebing "superior"... and when its accepted to be mexican what are we going to say, "we are aztec"?

come on people... grow up, shape up, and lets move our people into the 21st century, lets help armenia have paved roads, lets bring back the water and electricity to our viligas, which the governt has sold to other nations...

being white doesnt make you a better person, being white jsut reminds us of how ignorant the population of this world is... we are a culture that is slowly disintegrating, we are not a lot, and this nonesence about white/black is an American thing, not an Armenian thing...

noone said it makes them this or that a better person, you just twist words and create things to say because you cant respond intelligently to what we are putting forward. your arguments are beyond absurd.
Noone is insecure about ourselves, we are insecure because we have people like you who claim to be Armenian yet claim to not be white. well we are, they go together no matter how much you might not like it or how much you will like to argue against it. Go write "other" on your census but spare us all the pain and please dont write Armenian next to it.

[TigranJamharian]

Here is a famous white rapper.

http://www.smh.com.au/ffxImage/urlpicture_id_1050777170040_2003/04/20/ent_fiftycent2104.jpg

Here is a black person who ran for president and lost because he is black.

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Video/040327/nn_kod_kerry_040327.275w.jpg

Yes, thank you for this one.
You people are in severe need of some common sense.

And i dont knwo when the last time you visited Armenia was( maybe 300 years ago?) but unfortunately for you we have paved roads and even electricity! would you imagine?!!!! poor old backwards black Armenians building infrastructure?!! not possible, not in this world of course!

Self hating B!tch.

[nunechka]

i was there last summer my dear... and the only reason we have paved roads is because of KIRK KIRORIAN! ok! and everyone in armenia knows this... I HAVE A HOUSE THERE, i HAVE RELATIVES THERE! i talk to them OFTEN!... my cousin tried to open a small flourist shop, and guess what, the great WHITE-EURO armeian government came and said, PAY us $1,000 and we'll let you keep your place, mind you she was doing it out of a garage (BECAUSE SHE was JUST STARTING), she has no money for that, but here in the US, you can get a loan, in ARMENIAN (you know where there are those great white-euro intelligent extra progessive people, NO ONE can get a loan)

when we drove to Gyumri, i thought we went to another planet, i was like WTF is this? they dont have running water in anyt VILLAGE? and then i found out that the water was sold by the dear old intelligent white government to another country, and so was the electricity...

AND! WHERE WERE DOES great white people, when ARMENIANS were building infrustructure, tirgran and anony READ A HISTORY BOOK PLEASE! armenians were GREAT at one time, but now we have people like you, and we aint no where with this type of attitude...

armenians have had their infrustructure WAY BEFORE there was a europe and the idea of "white-people"... anony is too emotional for this conversation... he keeps talking about emotions this and that, my dear could you please take a walk around the block and relax, its just a FORUM!

[nunechka]

and i thought clinton was the first black president?

[nunechka]

anony you cant read... i am saying that ARMENIANS ARE NOT FROM THIS WHITE RACE! we are not black either... in your world, there are only white and black, but in the real world there is a very VERY VERY LARGE GRAY! area...

[thedebutante]

You guys are a bunch of dern fools. Moroccans are hardly black. In fact, the Moroccans I've known have olive skin and green or blue eyes.


You're the fool. You clearly missed my point (as you do most of my other points and then call me a fool to hide your own ignorance).

[TigranJamharian]

i was there last summer my dear... and the only reason we have paved roads is because of KIRK KIRORIAN! ok! and everyone in armenia knows this... I HAVE A HOUSE THERE, i HAVE RELATIVES THERE! i talk to them OFTEN!... my cousin tried to open a small flourist shop, and guess what, the great WHITE-EURO armeian government came and said, PAY us $1,000 and we'll let you keep your place, mind you she was doing it out of a garage (BECAUSE SHE was JUST STARTING), she has no money for that, but here in the US, you can get a loan, in ARMENIAN (you know where there are those great white-euro intelligent extra progessive people, NO ONE can get a loan)

when we drove to Gyumri, i thought we went to another planet, i was like WTF is this? they dont have running water in anyt VILLAGE? and then i found out that the water was sold by the dear old intelligent white government to another country, and so was the electricity...

AND! WHERE WERE DOES great white people, when ARMENIANS were building infrustructure, tirgran and anony READ A HISTORY BOOK PLEASE! armenians were GREAT at one time, but now we have people like you, and we aint no where with this type of attitude...

armenians have had their infrustructure WAY BEFORE there was a europe and the idea of "white-people"... anony is too emotional for this conversation... he keeps talking about emotions this and that, my dear could you please take a walk around the block and relax, its just a FORUM!

firstly, the rude language was uncalled for but dont think im still not as pissed. The fact that you would go beyond reason to insult your own nation to make a point disgusts me.

So you are saying being Armenian is being better than anyone else but you reject the fact that being part of one race doesnt make you better? full of inconsistencies.

What the hell does corruption have to do with race or "europeanness" 80% of eastern europe is more corrupt than us. And if you havent heard, Gyumri is an earthquake zone, just to let you know. Kirk kirkorian didnt pave roads, he repaired Yerevans streets and remodled and brought back cultural institutions. And Armenia sell electricity not water. There is plenty of water, the pipe system especially i nthe north is old/damaged by earthquake and thus very inneficient, plus people steal from them, nowhere else in the world have i heard of fountains on the street that flow 24/7 and that is still one of the biggest things i remember from Armenia.

edit: please dont lecture me on my own nation's history. Go live in Saudi Arabia and call yourself a shade of black, us Armenians, or at least most of us conside ourselves white and it is people like you who talk stupidities in front of otars that we are viewed as a "gray area" aka arabs, indians, asians. Please go and sign up to whichever group appeals to you more.

[thedebutante]

anony you cant read... i am saying that ARMENIANS ARE NOT FROM THIS WHITE RACE! we are not black either... in your world, there are only white and black, but in the real world there is a very VERY VERY LARGE GRAY! area...

Ok nune jan, don't call yourself white (affirmative action will start working more and more in your favor, so either way, you don't lose unlike the rest of us who call ourselves white). Woohoo!

[ArmenianKid]

So, since nunechka, and winoman contend that there is no such thing as race, therefore calling someone black or white is not correct. In fact, they have even gone so far as to say that one who is black in one culture may appear white in another. Either there really are not pigmentation differences, or we are all colorblind. So I guess winoman and nunechka would say that this person is in fact white according to them.

http://www.usm.edu/crdp/html/cd/vmustacheman.jpg

mouse u manage to burn and insult but at the same time prove a point. i love reading your posts.

[TigranJamharian]

So, since nunechka, and winoman contend that there is no such thing as race, therefore calling someone black or white is not correct. In fact, they have even gone so far as to say that one who is black in one culture may appear white in another. Either there really are not pigmentation differences, or we are all colorblind. So I guess winoman and nunechka would say that this person is in fact white according to them.

http://www.usm.edu/crdp/html/cd/vmustacheman.jpg

Yes, yes he does indeed, that is one sexy speciman of man btw.

[loseyourname]

You're the fool. You clearly missed my point (as you do most of my other points and then call me a fool to hide your own ignorance).

You were making a point? I thought you were being lighthearted, and I was being lighthearted in turn. If I offended you, I'm sorry. I'll never take you lightly again and go bask in my ignorance now. Jeez, you people are amazing.

I'm officially closing this thread, since we don't have any adults in here that are capable of carrying on a discussion without constantly insulting each other. This is a disgrace.