Are Armenians on the verge of extinction?

[Digger]

How many Armenians are there worldwide? I heard that Armenians only number a couple million. Whatever the number is, Armenians should seriously make increasing their numbers their number 1 priority. Armenians should breed like hell. Matter of fact, it should be in every Armenian's philosophy that any Armenian who doesn't have at least 4 kids, is a traitor to his/her people.

[Lucin]

Oh, please... We are not on the verge of extinction. You are exaggerating.
But I agree. We need kids, since our country is apparently experiencing a demographic 'implosian' for various reasons. But I have noticed an increasing trend amongst our women who absolutely don't want to have any kids, or with their own mentality and words; they don't like to be a "breeding machine", etc. Weird... However, on the other hand, "breeding like hell" - as you suggest- is not the secret either.( What's the use of having, for instance, four or five self-hating, ignorant fruits?) The secret- in my opinion- would be; to give a proper education and discipline to these adorable creatures and to instil them with our values and that's a big responsibility that would take a lot of time and energy, for which only motivated, commited and eager people are needed.

[Grandchild]

Oh, please... We are not on the verge of extinction. You are exaggerating.
But I agree. We need kids, since our country is apparently experiencing a demographic 'implosian' for various reasons. But I have noticed an increasing trend amongst our women who absolutely don't want to have any kids, or with their own mentality and words; they don't like to be a "breeding machine", etc. Weird... However, on the other hand, "breeding like hell" - as you suggest- is not the secret either.( What's the use of having, for instance, four or five self-hating, ignorant fruits?) The secret- in my opinion- would be; to give a proper education and discipline to these adorable creatures and to instil them with our values and that's a big responsibility that would take a lot of time and energy, for which only motivated, commited and eager people are needed.

What are "our values"? As mentioned in my intro, I am here to try to understand what it means to be Armenian. It seems I notice so far primarily Christian in religious belief, is there a particular branch of Christianity that is more "typical" Armenian? I don't remember my grandfather ever going to church, but he was senile by the time I knew him and perhaps the family didn't want to expose him like that. Grandma went to the Baptist church but she wasn't Armenian.

I notice you live in Tehran. I don't know why that surprises me, but it does.
I guess just knowing the dry history of the treatment of them and "us" would indicate to me a comradery. I have had no exposure to what I am reading on here.

This has been the most eye opening 12 hours I can remember in a long time.

[Armenian]

How many Armenians are there worldwide? I heard that Armenians only number a couple million. Whatever the number is, Armenians should seriously make increasing their numbers their number 1 priority. Armenians should breed like hell. Matter of fact, it should be in every Armenian's philosophy that any Armenian who doesn't have at least 4 kids, is a traitor to his/her people.

Dude, Armenians have been around for thousands of years. We as a nation have probably been through more crap than the entire human race combined. So, don't worry we are not going anywhere. Besides, a large Armenian population on earth would most probably be a threat to the geopolitical stability of the world anyway. So, nature has a way of creating a delicate balance. Nevertheless, with some time and a little stability you will see what we, as a collective nation, can do.

What are "our values"? As mentioned in my intro, I am here to try to understand what it means to be Armenian. It seems I notice so far primarily Christian in religious belief, is there a particular branch of Christianity that is more "typical" Armenian?

Armenian values/ethics are rooted in Orthodox Christianity and our national Church has the oldest Christian tradition on earth. Thus, the values of Orthodox Christianity are deeply ingrained in Armenian culture and identity. Armenian national values/cultural expressions are also deeply rooted in our ancient Aryan/Caucasian culture and beliefs.

I notice you live in Tehran. I don't know why that surprises me, but it does.

There are Armenians living in most civilized nations on earth, including some uncivilized ones such as Uganda and Turkey, for example.

I guess just knowing the dry history of the treatment of them and "us" would indicate to me a comradery. I have had no exposure to what I am reading on here. This has been the most eye opening 12 hours I can remember in a long time.

Well, eventually you will either find yourself here or loose yourself here. Armenians may be a lot of things but dull or unopinionated they are not. However, before you make-up your mind about us, please take your time and familiarize yourself with the national culture and identity first.

Here are some good websites that can help you do that:

http://www.tacentral.com/history.asp
http://www.hyeetch.nareg.com.au/armenians/index.html
http://www.armenian-history.com/index.htm

Some image galleries:

http://www.haykland.com/gallery.php
http://www.parev.am/PICTURES/xPictures.html
http://www.masis.am/wfp/

Here are some images that capture the Armenian spirit:

http://caot.lacitycollege.edu/112/FinalArmenianGenocide/images/Yerevan%20Pictures/yerevan-davit.jpg

http://www.davestravelcorner.com/photos/armenia/Etchmiatzin.jpg

http://www.armeniapedia.org/images/8/82/Cascades-DCP_1933.JPG

http://www.haykland.com/Guides/Garni/Armenia_garni_temple2.jpg

http://armenianstudies.csufresno.edu/hye_sharzhoom/vol25/march04/images/pg.-1-shoghakencolor.jpg

http://www.haias.net/bilder/artsakh-pics/nkr-army6.jpg

[skhara]

Besides, a large Armenian population on earth would most probably be a threat to the geopolitical stability of the world anyway.

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

[Grandchild]

Dude, Armenians have been around for thousands of years. We as a nation have probably been through more crap than the entire human race combined. So, don't worry we are not going anywhere. Besides, a large Armenian population on earth would most probably be a threat to the geopolitical stability of the world anyway. So, nature has a way of creating a delicate balance. Nevertheless, with some time and a little stability you will see what we, as a collective nation, can do.



Armenian values/ethics are rooted in Orthodox Christianity and our national Church has the oldest Christian tradition on earth. Thus, the values of Orthodox Christianity are deeply ingrained in Armenian culture and identity. Armenian national values/cultural expressions are also deeply rooted in our ancient Aryan/Caucasian culture and beliefs.



There are Armenians living in most civilized nations on earth, including some uncivilized ones such as Uganda and Turkey, for example.



Well, eventually you will either find yourself here or loose yourself here. Armenians may be a lot of things but dull or unopinionated they are not. However, before you make-up your mind about us, please take your time and familiarize yourself with the national culture and identity first.





Thank you for your detailed response. I've looked in the phone book and looks like a Greek Orthodox church is the closet to what you mentioned. Would this be approximately correct?

I know some of what you've discussed, like the "age" of Armenian culture. I certainly know the temperament.

I've been amazed at some of what I've read here, and how much in alignment they are with my own intellectual evaluations of world affairs (not having ever had an "Armenian" slant, just straight intellectual evaluation.) Yet here I am reading about issues that I have been thrown off numerous forums just for considering to question; and here it seems common conversation. Pretty cool so far.

Though I suspect my remarks may be minimized after admitting this; I'm not a dude, I'm a dudette.
:wave:

[Armenian]

Though I suspect my remarks may be minimized after admitting this; I'm not a dude, I'm a dudette. :wave:

:o

Minimized??? I think they were magnified... :)

Please tell us more about yourself, dudette. In your introduction thread you said that the current news about the Armenian Genocide resolution got you interested. That is interesting because sometimes within the Armenian diaspora it takes an event to trigger the awakening of the Armenian spirit within. For me it was the earthquake and the Artsakh war movement in the late 1980s that did it.

[Grandchild]

:o

Minimized??? I think they were magnified... :)

Please tell us more about yourself, dudette. In your introduction thread you said that the current news about the Armenian Genocide resolution got you interested. That is interesting because sometimes within the Armenian diaspora it takes an event to trigger the awakening of the Armenian spirit within. For me it was the earthquake and the Artsakh war movement in the late 1980s that did it.

Well, I am older and my story is very long. To peek at the most recent page you would find a longing to find "home" somewhere in the world, but a resignation that it is likely too late to do more than dream. ( I do actually own a home; but that isn't what I mean).

[Armenian]

To peek at the most recent page you would find a longing to find "home" somewhere in the world, but a resignation that it is likely too late to do more than dream. ( I do actually own a home; but that isn't what I mean).

I know exactly what you mean. I am no spring chicken myself, and I have more-or-less been searching as well. For individuals with spiritual depth that "search" never ends. In final analysis, however, home is where the heart is. And in my case my heart and soul is with my family and my homeland. And regarding the homeland: I see Armenia as my mother and America as my wife.

[Grandchild]

Lucky you to have such ties. I am the black sheep of the family and have no contact with them in decades. And though I should call USA my homeland, I have never felt a part and tend to being entirely too critical of her. My congratulations to you for having a solid foundation.

[Azad]

I am here to try to understand what it means to be Armenian.



Grandchild I have been asking the same question for years now. There is definitely something embedded that we carry from one generation to another. Small behavioral codes, a survival "kit" it's honorable in most societies. We have our shares of "bad". In the big picture we always did well in countries, societies, empires. "We don't make the products we make the products better". A good book will be "Black dog of fate" by Peter Balakian ... I believe he puts it more eloquently what it means to be Armenian.

[crusader1492]

Grandchild I have been asking the same question for years now. There is definitely something embedded that we carry from one generation to another. Small behavioral codes, a survival "kit" it's honorable in most societies. We have our shares of "bad". In the big picture we always did well in countries, societies, empires. "We don't make the products we make the products better". A good book will be "Black dog of fate" by Peter Balakian ... I believe he puts it more eloquently what it means to be Armenian.

Reading Black Dog of Fate is great advice for Grandchild.

[Fedayeen]

Its true we been around for a long time...but we are slowly loosing it.

I wish our home was a better place so at least some of us could return home. All our lives we travel from one place to another in search of better place. Yes its good in here, but to say i am happy to be here would be selfish.

I know a lot of people who marry to other races, can't really blame them, but that right there kills our race.

Does some one has to literally come out and kill us Armenian so we will finally understand that we are being extinguished?? its happing all around us. I myself already can't help my self but to speak English and slowly forget everything else.

What i am gonna tell my children? please speak Armenian? don't marry other races?



My parents would probably never again set a foot in Armenia, because they escaped from a hellhome. And I landed in another hellhome.


We are in danger. Of course things go much deeper then what i mentioned, but you get the point.

[Armenian]

Its true we been around for a long time...but we are slowly loosing it.

Generally speaking, let me tell you what we are loosing: We are loosing a bunch of disgruntled and/or materialistic Armenians from less-than exemplary backgrounds to assimilation in foreign lands. And I say good riddance...

Nevertheless, we have lost large numbers of our population due to disasters man-made and natural, due to expulsion and due to migration throughout our long and turbulent history. The Caucasus/Anatolia region has not been a very hospitable place to live in for thousands of years. You think times are rough today for Armenians, I suggest you study Armenian history. As a matter of fact, as bad as things seem today, it's better today in Armenia than it generally has been for hundreds of years. So, yeah, don't worry, regardless of what you do with your life in the diaspora Armenians will continue living in Armenia.

I see Armenians as being a golden-core surrounded by rotten fruit. The rotten fruit I am talking about is not the non-Armenians that surround us, it's the 'average' Armenian today. Thank God, this golden-core still exists as it has always exited regardless of time and/or socio-political conditions in the region. Although this golden-core does not constitute a majority in the nation, they nevertheless are the ones pushing our national heritage forward as they always have in the past. So, as some Armenians were rushing to flee their "hellhole" in the Caucasus other Armenians were rushing to the battlefields of Artskah; while some Armenians are eagerly serving the needs of their adopted nations worldwide, other Armenians are serving the needs of their homeland.

It's all relative. And any given nationalism is best revealed in action and example not by whining and complaining.

And I have to say that the new generation in Armenia today is also producing some fine young citizens that will eventually become apart of the golden-core. However, it's all how one perceives things and the type of people one naturally attracts or associates with. A crook can only see the world through a crook's eyes, a coward through coward's eyes, etc. And an ignorant individual can only attract ignorant individuals around them.

And you know what, most of my many friends and associates are Yerevantsis. Of them, perhaps 2/3 go take their children to the homeland every summer. Most of them maintain residences in the States as well as in the Armenian homeland. And perhaps 1/3 of them are already planning on moving back to the homeland. In fact, I also know many diaporan Armenians, born and raised in the diaspora, who live and work in Yerevan today. I also have a residence there, I also travel there every year, I also am planning on moving there in the future. And I also bought my residence there from another repatriated diasporan. And you know what, we all complain about certain aspects of socio-political life in Armenia. However, we put in in a proper context, we realize that all the ailments are temporary and we try to make a positive impact.

Armenia is going through growing pains. It will be a long hard road ahead of us. A very hard-road that all western nations began decades ago, we have only started recently. And no thanks to you and your family, Armenia is better today that it was a year ago, five years ago, ten years ago, fifteen years ago... If we live it up to people that harbor the kind of convictions you have, our homeland will surly disappear without a trace.

Trust me, I see the garbage in our society that calls themselves Armenian. They are the filth that essentially sit on their fat asses and complain about the government not supporting them. They are the filth that don't understand politics, but complain about politicians. They are the ones who claim to be proud Armenian during feasts, but are more than willing to abandon their Armenian identity when its suits their purpose. These are the same filth that complain about bribes, but are the first ones to offer a bribe when they break the law. These are the filth that complain about dirty streets, but are the first ones to throw garbage out their front doors. I am sure you know that types I am talking about... the average Armenian...

Sadly, there are many-many ignorant victims of Bolshevik indoctrination within our population today. Sadly, there are many-many ignorant peasants who think they are all knowledgeable. However, these low lives don't represent Armenia, nor do they represent Armenian culture. Like I said above, Armenians have always survived thanks to the golden-core that has existed within our nation.

And you know what Fedayeen, as bad as our corrupt politicians are, Armenians like you are worst. Actually, Armenians like you scare me. For me you represent the pessimist, defeatist, whining, bit-ching, complaining kind of Armenian that I'm afraid may be a majority within our population. Don't take any of this personally Fedayeen, it's just that I am tired of your defeatist type. And I blame your type for most of the ailments in our country.

I wish our home was a better place so at least some of us could return home. All our lives we travel from one place to another in search of better place. Yes its good in here, but to say i am happy to be here would be selfish.

Your homeland is what you make of it and how you perceive it. I most probably live much-much better than you in the United States, but I am planing on moving. I will not allow myself to grow old here. And in the meantime, I spend all my free time there. What is your excuse?

I know a lot of people who marry to other races, can't really blame them, but that right there kills our race.

Marrying outside the race is not the problem, per say. The problem is producing off-springs that would maintain an Armenian identity. Thus, the safest bet in having children that maintain an Armenian identity is by marrying an Armenian.

Does some one has to literally come out and kill us Armenian so we will finally understand that we are being extinguished?? its happing all around us. I myself already can't help my self but to speak English and slowly forget everything else.

The weak link here seems to be you and people like you.

What i am gonna tell my children? please speak Armenian? don't marry other races?

Yeah, as a father I can tell you it works. Trust me. And giving them a 'healthy' dose of Armenian identity would not hurt either, nor will providing them with a viable connection to their homeland. Parents indoctrinate, parents set examples, parents create environments for their children to grow up in.

My parents would probably never again set a foot in Armenia, because they escaped from a hellhome.

I more or less know exactly the kind of family you come from. Thus, I am not surprised one bit.

And had my Yerevantsi friends observed this discourse between you and I they would have scolded you severely.

So, in final analysis, I suggest you assimilate as fast as you can because you are only prolonging the inevitable and it's only hurting you. Trust me, it's much easier being an America, than an Armenian that cares about Armenia.

[Fedayeen]

I was expecting this from you. As usual, you do not see a problem, and when you do see a problem, you act like its not a biggie. But whats reality?

Why are you here today? Why did you move out of Armenia in the first place? why?

Can you explain more why you see me as part of a problem? Because i bring out negative things about Armenia and our people outside of Armenia? IF your not willing to accept that there is something wrong, how you expect yourself to fix it?

You see glass as half full, i see it as half empty. And please do not assume you know where i come from, what family i come from, etc.

[Fedayeen]

The weak link here seems to be you and people like you.



Explain.

[Armenian]

Why are you here today? Why did you move out of Armenia in the first place? why?

I'll tell you why dingbat, I was born in the Middle East and raised in the United States. That's why. OK? As a matter of fact, my family lineage, from Cilicia, lived outside of historic Armenian for nearly a thousand years. So, its high time I bring a bit of it back to the homeland.

And I explained to you the rest. If you are having a difficult time understanding what I wrote, re-read it. And again let me remind you my problem is not with you, per say. My problem is with the "type" of mentality you portray and with your up-bringing.

Explain.

I already did.

[Fedayeen]

En vor asum en denet tak teghits galis, hima konna.


Ahh...you should of been right there with me when my father left for karabakh, you should been there sitting in darkness for months in freezing winter, you should of been there when we entered Osetiya and Armenian-Georgian border, you should of been there when KGB entered our house, you should of been there when we took 1 week train ride to cyberia, you should of been there when we entered Amsterdam, but you weren't there, because you were busy growing up in this glorious land.

I am sorry that my eyes don't look at Armenia the same way you eyes do. And all you can do is call me names.

Keep taking trips back to Yerevan every summer, hey at least your doing something, for yourself.

[Armenian]

En vor asum en denet tak teghits galis, hima konna. Ahh...you should of been right there with me when my father left for karabakh, you should been there sitting in darkness for months in freezing winter, you should of been there when we entered Osetiya and Armenian-Georgian border, you should of been there when KGB entered our house, you should of been there when we took 1 week train ride to cyberia, you should of been there when we entered Amsterdam, but you weren't there, because you were busy growing up in this glorious land. I am sorry that my eyes don't look at Armenia the same way you eyes do. And all you can do is call me names. Keep taking trips back to Yerevan every summer, hey at least your doing something, for yourself.

Just stop the your nonsense, Fedayeen. None of what you wrote has any bearing on what we are discussing here. And you wont get any sympathy from me, because none of what you have told me is an excuse for spiritually and physically abandoning your fatherland. As if you are the only one with a sob story. Get on line. You are simply making superficial excuses for your self-hate, pessimism and defeatism. Listen dude, throw in the towel and get on with your life here in the "glorious land" of Armendale. Living as an Armenian without a connection to the homeland is pointless and senseless. You are right, Armenia is not for people like you. Sadly, there are a lot of people like you stuck over there, I wish they could leave as well. You don't have the maturity to see the Fatherland for what it is or needs to become. And the funniest thing here is your user name.

And yeah - ձայնս «շատ» տաք տեղից է գալիս:

[Mos]

Over the years, during my residence in the States I have noticed a rather disturbing thing. That thing is Armenians forgetting their heritage and culture and become "American." I am not tending to give the label "american" a bad reputation, but instead I am concerned with the people who are of Armenian descent, that dont recognize their ethnicity, show no interest in their native culture, but instead want to "blend" in with everybody else, with majority not recognizing their culture, but instead labeling themselves as "Americans." I for one was not born in the States but grew up in the states for a large amount of time and even though it has been sometimes difficult to sustain my full culture and ethnicity, through this "melting pot" of American society especially after 9/11. I know many Armenians (some by just looking at their last names, then actually seeing them) that show not even the slightest desire to recognize their real Armenian heritage, and once I asked one of these people what country they were from, they said Italian/Arabic , and then later they said an Armenian phrase "ինչ պես էս" , and stated it was Arabic. This is one of the instances that I noticed where an Armenian completed ignored his or her nationality. As Armenians have and do dispearse around the world I wish they could still sustain, their culture (as many do) and remain Armenian even though every one around them is of a different culture/nationality.

[Armenian]

Mos jan, if we only had more youth like you. If you represent the future of our nation then we as a nation have nothing to worry about. I salute you and your parents.

Apres yeghbayr

[karoaper]

It's all the parents' fault. Which makes stories of adults who discover their roots on their own so much more precious and wonderful. Sadly, in most other cases, children in whom the Armenian spirit was allowed to die or was even forcibly put out, will not discover it in their adulthood.

[Grandchild]

En vor asum en denet tak teghits galis, hima konna.


Ahh...you should of been right there with me when my father left for karabakh, you should been there sitting in darkness for months in freezing winter, you should of been there when we entered Osetiya and Armenian-Georgian border, you should of been there when KGB entered our house, you should of been there when we took 1 week train ride to cyberia, you should of been there when we entered Amsterdam, but you weren't there, because you were busy growing up in this glorious land.

I am sorry that my eyes don't look at Armenia the same way you eyes do. And all you can do is call me names.

Keep taking trips back to Yerevan every summer, hey at least your doing something, for yourself.

I am so sorry for you to have had to struggle so much. I hope you have healed in yourself and in your family. Those are the most important "fatherlands" no matter where you are.

[Fedayeen]

[QUOTE]Just stop the your nonsense, Fedayeen. None of what you wrote has any bearing on what we are discussing here.

We as a race are on danger, what i said clearly shows on what kind of disaster, at least most of us in diaspora are in. No wonder i don't make sense to you.

And you wont get any sympathy from me, because none of what you have told me is an excuse for spiritually and physically abandoning your fatherland. As if you are the only one with a sob story. Get on line. You are simply making superficial excuses for your self-hate, pessimism and defeatism.

You live in a world of denial. Yeh we tried really hard to come up an excuse :rolleyes:

Self-hate...wow...you got a lot of guts, let me tell you. How can you bring yourself to call another Armenian self-hating individual? What makes you better Armenian then me?


Listen dude, throw in the towel and get on with your life here in the "glorious land" of Armendale.

I wish i was that selfish, i wish i was that stupid, i wish i could pretend everything is good. I wish i could just buy a benz, buy a house, and live my life with towel over my head. But no, because as you say, i'm one of those. Its easy for people to forget where they come from, because its so easy to get destructed in this materialistic world and be part of grand plan of Armenians extingshion supported by jooish.



Living as an Armenian without a connection to the homeland is pointless and senseless.

If that by you mean visiting Yerevan every summer, then yes i have to disagree.


You are right, Armenia is not for people like you. Sadly, there are a lot of people like you stuck over there, I wish they could leave as well. You don't have the maturity to see the Fatherland for what it is or needs to become. And the funniest thing here is your user name.


Of course it not, its for people who are criminals, liers, killers, inhuman, don't care about the future, and mafios :cool: & really poor people. I am sorry i could not fit in in any of those categories :crying:

Yeh i agree i was a just a little boy when i saw what "fatherland" was. Wish i was older back then so i could of understand that its not so bad. :rolleyes:

Yeh its pretty funny user name, i get that a lot.

And yeah - ձայնս «շատ» տաք տեղից է գալիս:

[Fedayeen]

As you said, through out the history, our people been through even worse situations, then we are facing today. But they managed to survive and keep the legacy alive.

I'm afraid we will never reach the point where we as a race are not facing danger. Because we have people like you who put them selfs above others.

[Alexzan]

Over the years, during my residence in the States I have noticed a rather disturbing thing. That thing is Armenians forgetting their heritage and culture and become "American." I am not tending to give the label "american" a bad reputation, but instead I am concerned with the people who are of Armenian descent, that dont recognize their ethnicity, show no interest in their native culture, but instead want to "blend" in with everybody else, with majority not recognizing their culture, but instead labeling themselves as "Americans." I for one was not born in the States but grew up in the states for a large amount of time and even though it has been sometimes difficult to sustain my full culture and ethnicity, through this "melting pot" of American society especially after 9/11. I know many Armenians (some by just looking at their last names, then actually seeing them) that show not even the slightest desire to recognize their real Armenian heritage, and once I asked one of these people what country they were from, they said Italian/Arabic , and then later they said an Armenian phrase "ինչ պես էս" , and stated it was Arabic. This is one of the instances that I noticed where an Armenian completed ignored his or her nationality. As Armenians have and do dispearse around the world I wish they could still sustain, their culture (as many do) and remain Armenian even though every one around them is of a different culture/nationality.



Yeah I know some of these people do that too. I hear some even say they are Mexican to sound like hardcore gangster or something, stupid people I dont know what their parents are thinking

[Shahan]

You are right, Armenia is not for people like you. Sadly, there are a lot of people like you stuck over there, I wish they could leave as well.

Armenian, I used to like you, in fact I think that you are one of the greatest minds in this forum. But with this thread and with your remarks here you have disappointed me. You are telling an unfortunate refugee from Armenia that Armenia is not for people like him and wishing even more Hayastantsis would leave their homeland. WTF?? ...Listen, with all due respect, but it seems that you are forgetting who you are. You are an akhpar, so behave yourself accordingly and don't get cheeky, Ekhav ara?

[Armenian]

Armenian, I used to like you, in fact I think that you are one of the greatest minds in this forum. But with this thread and with your remarks here you have disappointed me.

I am not interested in wining the hearts and minds of the readers. I simply speak my mind. Some will support what I say others will not, its natural. Instead of getting antsy, if you have a point to make in support of a counterargument, make it.

You are telling an unfortunate refugee from Armenia that Armenia is not for people like him and wishing even more Hayastantsis would leave their homeland. WTF?? ...

Yes, it's obvious you are confused. Personally, I have nothing against the "unfortunate refugee" from Armenia. He seems to be a decent person. However, the person in question should learn to respect the concept of a Fatherland and learn to serve the nation unconditionally. And I give a rat's ass how much money one has, how much education one has, or where one is born. What matters to me are individuals who have a healthy, objective and balanced approach to their troubled homeland. The person in question has obviously had bad experiences, as have so many others like him. But that does not give him the right to more-or-less give up on his nation and not see the point of preserving the Armenian identity in the diaspora. What good is he as an Armenian if he/she does not have a viable healthy connection to the homeland? What would your avatar sake Garegin say about this matter? The point is, we don't need any more defeatists who sow the seeds of discontent in our society, we have too many as is.

I don't want to go into detail but the Armenian Republic today is full of worthless and useless citizens. In my opinion, they should all be allowed to gradually leave the nation. At the same time, however, there should be a pan-Armenian program set up to attract conscientious Armenians from around the world. Anyway, why don't you read the entire exchange of words between him and I before you make yourself out to be an idiot.

Listen, with all due respect, but it seems that you are forgetting who you are. You are an akhpar, so behave yourself accordingly and don't get cheeky

Don't forget I'm an Akhpar? :confused: Are you one of them ppzogh geghatsis? What is your point?

, Ekhav ara?

Learn correct Armenian grammar. It's spelled "yeghav" (Եղավ) and my name is not Ara.

[Lucin]

I don't want to go into detail but the Armenian Republic today is full of worthless and useless citizens. In my opinion, they should all be allowed to gradually leave the nation.

It might sound 'harsh' to some but I agree with you wholeheartedly. These kind have always been an impedement for the country's developpment and prosperity, not only today but throughout Armenia's history.



Are you one of them ppzogh geghatsis?


:laugh:

[Armenian]

As you said, through out the history, our people been through even worse situations, then we are facing today. But they managed to survive and keep the legacy alive.

The "they" you are referring to "survived" more-or-less within the region of the Armenian homeland within Islamic societies, namely that of the Ottoman Empire and Persia. The then equivalent of a western diaspora, the medieval Armenian communities of eastern Europe numbering over a quarter million, disappeared into the pages of history. And today in this modern age of materialism and liberalism, especially in the western world, modern Armenian communities have no chance in hell of preserving their national identity past several generations.

So, what is it all about, do you attempt to preserve or do you disappear? Look at your parents, according to what you said, they claim that they would never step foot in the Armenian Republic again.... Let's think of that conviction for a moment... Had most Armenians been like your parents what would have become of the Armenian nation? For me, your parents, like many others in our republic and the diaspora today, are total wastes as Armenians. And if it makes you feel any better, I also have family members like that. I don't associate myself with them and I don't even allow my children to spend any amount of time with their children.

I'm afraid we will never reach the point where we as a race are not facing danger. Because we have people like you who put them selfs above others.

I'm putting myself above others and that is why the Armenian Republic is in danger??? :confused: What the heck are you talking about :laugh: Had I been selfish, I would not waste my precious time in this board and I would live a very comfortable "American" life. The Armenian Republic, good or bad, is my only homeland. I have a duty to be apart of it unconditionally. And it is my duty to participate in its development in any way that I can.

[gmd]

this is an interesting discussion. enough of one for me to log on and comment. i am trying to understand the comments about an Armenian race and/or fatherland. i thought we were a distinct cultural group not a race unto ourselves. and what is a fatherland? is it the land of your forefathers or the land you call home? I left Armenia alot earlier then Fedayeen but I can empathize with his situation because I have come in contact with enough Armenians who left during the post independence days. even my memories of Soviet Armenia are not golden ones.

at the rate the brain drain is occurring in Armenia and other similar nations I do not see how it is a benefit to anyone but the developed nations who are snapping up all the talent.
the remittence back home will be slowing and eventually stopping. sooner or later Armenia needs to stand on its own feet or there will not be enough Armenians in Armenia for it to be called Armenia anymore.

[Armenian]

I'm getting tired of this stupid nonsenses.

gmd, I suggest you take your Japanese wife and children and visit your long lost homeland. You and your family will be pleasantly surprised. After you come back we'll talk about whether or not there will be enough Armenians in Armenia for the nation to be called Armenia anymore...

Where do all you people come out off?

...the remittence back home will be slowing and eventually stopping. sooner or later Armenia needs to stand on its own feet or there will not be enough Armenians in Armenia for it to be called Armenia anymore...

[Shahan]

Yes, it's obvious you are confused.

I'm not confused at all. I know very well where you are coming from and most importantly where you are heading to. Depi hayreniq (as you put it) LOL.
Of course you (and the likes of you) would want to go to Armenia, Hayreniq where a young native yerevantsi family will be renting, paying through their nose, for one of your properties, while the other one will clean your huge house which you bought for peanuts from another suffering local. etc etc.
Who are you kidding? You are an American so stay in America and put your considerable knowledge of our history and love for all things Armenian towards making sure our vast American diaspora stays Armenian.

What would your avatar sake Garegin say about this matter?

He'd say to you stay where you are (USA) and provide leadership to those Armenians around you, teach them what it's mean to be Armenian, teach them our language and history, organize them! That's exactly what Garegin did in USA.

I don't want to go into detail but the Armenian Republic today is full of worthless and useless citizens. In my opinion, they should all be allowed to gradually leave the nation. At the same time, however, there should be a pan-Armenian program set up to attract conscientious Armenians from around the world.

You and the likes of you to Armenia are what jhud (joo) zionists were to Palestine in the 1920ies. Palestinians welcomed them and gave them bread while jhuds stabbed them in the back and stole their land. The rest is a history. But what happened to Palestinians will never happen to Hayastantsis no matter how much you wish and pray for it to happen.


Don't forget I'm an Akhpar? :confused:

That's right, an akhpar - a foreigner with an Armenian heritage, you are just a guest, nothing more nothing less. The problem is that you don't appreciate our hospitality and show disrespect to Hayastantsis. That's the result of a failed government policy, which gave foreigners property and residency rights in Armenia. But things will change and mistakes will be fixed.

Are you one of them ppzogh geghatsis? What is your point?

I'm neither geghatsi (villager) nor geghtsi (uneducated). I'm a proud 3rd generation Yerevantsi with an honours degree from one of the best European Universities (a non English one). I love our geghatsis (villagers) dearly, while you dispise them so much. Our Nzhdeh, whos words you use as your signature, was a Hayastantsi geghatsi (Nakhichevani marz, Kznut gekh). Geghatsis are the most sincere, hardworking and patriotic Hayastantsis. One geghatsi is worth more than 50 akhpars.

Learn correct Armenian grammar. It's spelled "yeghav" (Եղավ) and my name is not Ara.

Eghav@ et goghakanova vorits du gaghapar chunes u chesel unenana, inchpes nayev mer surb Hayastanits u mer anoush Yerevanits chunes u chesel unena. Yes vor hayereni ughagrutiunits 5-ei stanum to du ureir, ara? Ha hents ara. Minchev qo verabermunq@ im erkri u im erkratsineri nkatmamb chpoxes, kmnas ara. Jogir inchem asum, ara?

[TomServo]

I'm afraid we will never reach the point where we as a race are not facing danger.
Sadly true.

Because we have people like you who put them selfs above others.
People like him, and also people like Shahan.

[KarotheGreat]

I'm neither geghatsi (villager) nor geghtsi (uneducated). I'm a proud 3rd generation Yerevantsi with an honours degree from one of the best European Universities (a non English one). I love our geghatsis (villagers) dearly, while you dispise them so much. Our Nzhdeh, whos words you use as your signature, was a Hayastantsi geghatsi (Nakhichevani marz, Kznut gekh). Geghatsis are the most sincere, hardworking and patriotic Hayastantsis. One geghatsi is worth more than 50 akhpars.
Ծո ընձի լսէ դու էրէվնցի էս: Սուս մնխ ու տեղտ նստի: Ստէղ էգե խոսասկը ինչ ղոր չիդեթ ինչ ես: Դու ըդպէս կնայես դրսի Հայերին
Հայաստանը սաղ Հայերի յերցիրնե օվ օր կսե ուրիշ բան ըդուր լավը քունեմ
Հայաստանը բդի տըն շինենկ սաղ հայերի համար
հասկծար ընձի ձո

[Armenian]

I'm not confused at all. I know very well where you are coming from and most importantly where you are heading to. Depi hayreniq (as you put it) LOL. Of course you (and the likes of you) would want to go to Armenia, Hayreniq where a young native yerevantsi family will be renting, paying through their nose, for one of your properties, while the other one will clean your huge house which you bought for peanuts from another suffering local. etc etc. Who are you kidding?

Yeah, and some of those "young native yerevantsi" families are selling their wives and daughters to the highest bidders in Turkey and the Emirates. Yeah, those same families that would sell their mothers just to get a visa to the USA. Stop your nonsense. The bottom line is, you are at heart an envious Bolshevik, with no sense of honor, decency or nation.

He'd say to you stay where you are (USA) and provide leadership to those Armenians around you, teach them what it's mean to be Armenian, teach them our language and history, organize them! That's exactly what Garegin did in USA.

Why should I teach them anything? So that when they go to the Hairaniq they will meet garbage men like you telling them that they are guests? And obviously you know nothing about Garegin, which is typical of the "proud" yet utterly shallow Armenians of your caliber.

You and the likes of you to Armenia are what jhud (joo) zionists were to Palestine in the 1920ies. Palestinians welcomed them and gave them bread while jhuds stabbed them in the back and stole their land. The rest is a history. But what happened to Palestinians will never happen to Hayastantsis no matter how much you wish and pray for it to happen. That's right, an akhpar - a foreigner with an Armenian heritage, you are just a guest, nothing more nothing less. The problem is that you don't appreciate our hospitality and show disrespect to Hayastantsis. That's the result of a failed government policy, which gave foreigners property and residency rights in Armenia. But things will change and mistakes will be fixed.

Oh, really? Armenians of the Diaspora are as different from native Armenians as Jooz are to Palestinians??? We are guests there, nothing more nothing less? How Bolshevik of you... As far as I'm concerned the type of Armenian you represent are more harmful to the Armenian Republic than the most violent Turk. Sadly, there may be Turks here seeing this exchange. What a disgusting person you are. I am glad, that you and your kind are slowly being driven out of our country. Less of your Turkic leftovers there the better will the country be. There is no place in Armenia for Turkified Bolsheviks like you.

And the only mistake I see here is your existence.

I'm neither geghatsi (villager) nor geghtsi (uneducated). I'm a proud 3rd generation Yerevantsi with an honours degree from one of the best European Universities (a non English one).

You are at heart an ignorant lowlife Geghatsi, stop your theatrics. And I would wipe my ass with your "honours degree from one of the best European Universities."

Eshin ur el ugharkes esh k'mna... :laugh:

I love our geghatsis (villagers) dearly, while you dispise them so much. Our Nzhdeh, whos words you use as your signature, was a Hayastantsi geghatsi (Nakhichevani marz, Kznut gekh). Geghatsis are the most sincere, hardworking and patriotic Hayastantsis. One geghatsi is worth more than 50 akhpars.

Allow an Akhbar to teach you proper Armenian, once again: Geghatsi is not the same as Gyughatsi. I suggest you call your hayrik and ask him what the difference is.

An Armenian patriot in Armenia is worth the entire diaspora. The worth of a Bolshevik "geghatsis" like you, however, is the same as the worth of a typical Anatolian Turk. And one Diasporan Armenian returning to the Fatherland is worth more than the entire "Hayastantsi" population of Southern California.

Eghav@ et goghakanova vorits du gaghapar chunes u chesel unenana, inchpes nayev mer surb Hayastanits u mer anoush Yerevanits chunes u chesel unena. Yes vor hayereni ughagrutiunits 5-ei stanum to du ureir, ara? Ha hents ara. Minchev qo verabermunq@ im erkri u im erkratsineri nkatmamb chpoxes, kmnas ara. Jogir inchem asum, ara?

Tipik poghotsayin turki lakot es, jogir inchem asum ara :laugh:

[gmd]

I'm getting tired of this stupid nonsenses.

gmd, I suggest you take your Japanese wife and children and visit your long lost homeland. You and your family will be pleasantly surprised. After you come back we'll talk about whether or not there will be enough Armenians in Armenia for the nation to be called Armenia anymore...

Where do all you people come out off?

having a different perspective then you does not necessarily make it stupid. a one sided ultranationalist view does not guarantee anything for a tiny nation in a bad neighborhood. especially when that nationalism is felt from the other side of the world. my visits to my birthplace is not the topic of this discussion.

[Armenian]

having a different perspective then you does not necessarily make it stupid. a one sided ultranationalist view does not guarantee anything for a tiny nation in a bad neighborhood. especially when that nationalism is felt from the other side of the world. my visits to my birthplace is not the topic of this discussion.

I'll tell you why this is stupid, gmd. Just read some of the comments written here:

One says that he'll never step foot in the country again because it's corrupt, because he and his family had bad experiences there, because it's this, it's that... And more-or-less claims: What's the point in instilling an Armenian identity in your children if they are going to assimilate anyway.

Another one wants to give us advise about being an "Armenian" although he has married outside of the culture and has not even attempted to visit his birthplace, and more-or-less claims that the country is doomed.

Yet another claims to know what Garegin Nzhteh stood for but says we diasporans are nothing but "guests" in our Republic. Compares diasporan Armenians to European Jooz forcefully colonizing Palestine (thats a xxxxing first, I must say). And goes on to complain about diasporans "employing" natives and "purchasing" property in the country. And looks forward to more-or-less severing the nation's ties with the diaspora...

Yes gmd, this is all f***ing stupid, for these types of backward, ignorant, self-destructive, Bolshevik derived mentalities are what we Armenians don't need today and can do without in the future. And it is because of people like you, that disgusting "Shahan" character, the so-called "Fedayeen," and all the rest of the native Armenian and diasporan self-haters, low-lives and doom sayers, that we are in the shape we are in today - and not because of Turks or Armenia's corrupt leaders. The nature of any given government directly reflects the sociopolitical condition of the overall population. In other words, people deserve the government they have. And before the people begin complaining about their leaders they should first complain about themselves.

This reminds me of all the low-lives in Yerevan that complain about the handful of Artsakhtsis running the political show in Armenia. I say to them: why did you give them the power? And when YOU were in power before them what did you accomplish?

And that moron Shahan thinks diasporans like me go to Armenia to have a good time and buy things... What a big load of crap... I am not one to defend what diasporans do in Armenia but if I, personally, wanted to have a "good time" and "purchase" things I would much rather stay within the United States or go to Greece, Italy, France, Austria, Croatia, Spain, the Bahamas, Puerto Rico, etc. And if I ever wanted a "maid" to serve me and my family there are dozens of Mexicans I can hire for dirt cheep.

I choose to spend my free times in Armenia. I am establishing a home there. And I am planning on moving there in the future. I am doing all this and putting up with the nation's ailments: the non-existent social services; the poor medical care; the polluted air; the dilapidated infrastructure; the rampant corruption; the sever poverty; the disgusting geghatsis in the streets; the broken-up sidewalks; the dangerous streets; the bad sanitation; the rude population; because I see past the current socioeconomic problems we have in the republic and realize that this is one of our unique chances in history to directly participate in our nation building.

I am willing to abandon my life in the States and return to the less-than ideal conditions of my homeland because I don't see a point of preserving an Armenian identity in the diaspora. And a pathetic Bolshevik reject is going to tell me that I'm a "guest" in my Fatherland? Let a Turkified geghatsi Bolshevik say that crap to my face and see what will happen.

In my opinion, the garbage in the streets of Yerevan, both human and material, are transitional - they are here today, gone tomorrow. What remains in the end, however, is the homeland and our national heritage. And I'm concerned about the homeland and the heritage - not the "individual" Armenian with his/her non-ending problems, non-ending complaints and dark forecasts of doom and gloom.

In final analysis: You people can stay wherever you want, do whatever you want. But don't you ever claim that you are doing anything for the betterment of the Armenian Republic and don't think your future off-springs will be Armenians. And don't you even think about complaining about me or people who think like me.

[gmd]

I'll tell you why this is stupid, gmd. Just read some of the comments written here:

One says that he'll never step foot in the country again because it's corrupt, because he and his family had bad experiences there, because it's this, it's that... And more-or-less claims: What's the point in instilling an Armenian identity in your children if they are going to assimilate anyway.

Another one wants to give us advise about being an "Armenian" although he has married outside of the culture and has not even attempted to visit his birthplace, and more-or-less claims that the country is doomed.

Yet another claims to know what Garegin Nzhteh stood for but says we diasporans are nothing but "guests" in our Republic. Compares diasporan Armenians to European Jooz forcefully colonizing Palestine (thats a xxxxing first, I must say). And goes on to complain about diasporans "employing" natives and "purchasing" property in the country. And looks forward to more-or-less severing the nation's ties with the diaspora...

Yes gmd, this is all f***ing stupid, for these types of backward, ignorant, self-destructive, Bolshevik derived mentalities are what we Armenians don't need today and can do without in the future. And it is because of people like you, that disgusting "Shahan" character, the so-called "Fedayeen," and all the rest of the native Armenian and diasporan self-haters, low-lives and doom sayers, that we are in the shape we are in today - and not because of Turks or Armenia's corrupt leaders. The nature of any given government directly reflects the sociopolitical condition of the overall population. In other words, people deserve the government they have. And before the people begin complaining about their leaders they should first complain about themselves.

This reminds me of all the low-lives in Yerevan that complain about the handful of Artsakhtsis running the political show in Armenia. I say to them: why did you give them the power? And when YOU were in power before them what did you accomplish?

And that moron Shahan thinks diasporans like me go to Armenia to have a good time and buy things... What a big load of crap... I am not one to defend what diasporans do in Armenia but if I, personally, wanted to have a "good time" and "purchase" things I would much rather stay within the United States or go to Greece, Italy, France, Austria, Croatia, Spain, the Bahamas, Puerto Rico, etc. And if I ever wanted a "maid" to serve me and my family there are dozens of Mexicans I can hire for dirt cheep.

I choose to spend my free times in Armenia. I am establishing a home there. And I am planning on moving there in the future. I am doing all this and putting up with the nation's ailments: the non-existent social services; the poor medical care; the polluted air; the dilapidated infrastructure; the rampant corruption; the sever poverty; the disgusting geghatsis in the streets; the broken-up sidewalks; the dangerous streets; the bad sanitation; the rude population; because I see past the current socioeconomic problems we have in the republic and realize that this is one of our unique chances in history to directly participate in our nation building.

I am willing to abandon my life in the States and return to the less-than ideal conditions of my homeland because I don't see a point of preserving an Armenian identity in the diaspora. And a pathetic Bolshevik reject is going to tell me that I'm a "guest" in my Fatherland? Let a Turkified geghatsi Bolshevik say that crap to my face and see what will happen.

In my opinion, the garbage in the streets of Yerevan, both human and material, are transitional - they are here today, gone tomorrow. What remains in the end, however, is the homeland and our national heritage. And I'm concerned about the homeland and the heritage - not the "individual" Armenian with his/her non-ending problems, non-ending complaints and dark forecasts of doom and gloom.

In final analysis: You people can stay wherever you want, do whatever you want. But don't you ever claim that you are doing anything for the betterment of the Armenian Republic and don't think your future off-springs will be Armenians. And don't you even think about complaining about me or people who think like me.

unless i misunderstand, you seem to be saying there is no point in maintaining an Armenian identity in the diaspora. I could not agree more.
if you will be doing as you say then the more power to you. i am sure people like you (regardless of view points) will make Armenia a better place but only from Armenia.
the diaspora is only a cash cow in the short term for Armenia proper. as for myself, i will clarify for you if you care. my ties to Armenia and my identity is through family. i have never belonged to any organizations, Armenian or otherwise. I have family in Armenia, and I have visited them. Before you make judgements on who I married consider that such choices are made on a personal level much like ones faith. my none Armenian wife has given me three children who know who they are. I have seen enough Armenian couples within friends and family who are reluctant to have even one child. don't make snap judgements or overanalyze everything you read. you may not be willing to consider the dissapointment that some people may feel towards Armenia having lived there, so you are able to retain a greater degree of confidence and positive outlook on the matter. i am not so willing to judge. i know despite having been born in Armenia I grew up in the relative saftey and luxury of America. I did not live through the early years of independence and the hardships that our people faced. so i listen to the words of people like Fedayeen and try to understand where he is coming from. I lost one of my cousins in the Artsak struggle and the rest of my cousins have/or are still serving in the Armenian army so I have a legitimate concern for my family's saftey and well being. you keep speaking in abstracts of nationalism and pride. when you settle in Armenia and make a difference then call me stupid and a pessimist.

dzer grvatzkner shat lav koxmer unen. yev dzer grvatzknere indz beretzin es forumee metch. mi mtazek vor viravelov petke haituzune oojexatznek. amen tesak hai e petk for haireneeke oojexana. yete bolores nooin dzevov tesnenk ameninche oorem vontzenk zarganaloo. im kartzikov mer azgayeen toolutzyune galis e mer entaniknere poker en yev mer azgee metch shat kitch martik hargank unene zinvorutzyuni metch.

hargankov,

Garik

[Armenian]

unless i misunderstand, you seem to be saying there is no point in maintaining an Armenian identity in the diaspora. I could not agree more. the diaspora is only a cash cow in the short term for Armenia proper

Yes, ultimately, the diaspora is doomed.

However, we should attempt to prolong its existence as much as possible because the Armenian Republic greatly benefits from a healthy diaspora.

if you will be doing as you say then the more power to you. i am sure people like you (regardless of view points) will make Armenia a better place but only from Armenia.

You can also have an impact on the nation by simply vacationing there often and instilling an Armenian identity in your children. You never know, armed with an Armenian identity perhaps one day your children will decide to live or work there. However, without an Armenian identity there will be no chance of that occurring. And if you have a few extra dollars go and buy yourself a small apartment in Yerevan. Why not? Your children will grow up knowing they have a home in Armenia as well. You need to create a connection, a line of some sort, to the homeland for your off-spring to use.

Before you make judgements on who I married consider that such choices are made on a personal level much like ones faith. my none Armenian wife has given me three children who know who they are. I have seen enough Armenian couples within friends and family who are reluctant to have even one child. don't make snap judgements or overanalyze everything you read.

Marrying an Armenian is not always the best option, specifically in the diaspora. However, the best chance one as to preserve the heritage in the diaspora is by marrying an Armenian. Simple as that. My best wishes for you and your family. I am the last person here that will lecture anyone regarding the affairs of the heart. They do say that love is blind. I say: Love is deaf, dumb and blind. Nonetheless, I wish you and your family health and happiness. However, I also wish that you would attempt to at least gradually instill an Armenian identity in your off-springs so that they are not totally lost to our already small and vulnerable nation. From what I have seen of your writings here I can only conclude that you are a very intelligent and decent person. It's a shame that you and your family are not a part of our national fabric.

you may not be willing to consider the dissapointment that some people may feel towards Armenia having lived there, so you are able to retain a greater degree of confidence and positive outlook on the matter. i am not so willing to judge. i know despite having been born in Armenia I grew up in the relative saftey and luxury of America. I did not live through the early years of independence and the hardships that our people faced. so i listen to the words of people like Fedayeen and try to understand where he is coming from.

The concept of a fatherland supersedes the emotions of the individual. There are many Armenians from the region that have suffered worst situations than "Fedayeen" but they would never attempted to make some of the comments he has attempted here. This all has to do with the quality of up brining and character of the person in question. As a result, this has nothing to do with how wealthy one is or how much education one has. Sadly, many of our people whether they realize it or not are victims of the decades long indoctrinations of Bolshevism.

I lost one of my cousins in the Artsak struggle and the rest of my cousins have/or are still serving in the Armenian army so I have a legitimate concern for my family's saftey and well being. you keep speaking in abstracts of nationalism and pride. when you settle in Armenia and make a difference then call me stupid and a pessimist.

My comments about nationalism are very tangible they are not abstract at all, unless that is how you want to perceive it. And I will email you from there and call you stupid. How's that?

I never called you stupid, gmd. But yes, you are a pessimist. We can have well intentioned complainers and constructive criticizers - but we can't afford to have defeatists and pessimists.

Simple as that.

Hargankov,

Armenian

[Armenian]

Gmd, if you think that being an Armenian, or preserving your Armenian heritage, is important in your life then you simply have to take some measures to change your lifestyle. However, if you don't think that it's very important for you to preserve your Armenian heritage then you don't need to be here to give us advise about being an Armenian. This all has to do with you and your plans for the future. But seeing that you are in an Armenian forum engaging us in debate I suspect that there are issues of identity running through your mind. I don't know how old your children are but perhaps the following organizations might be interesting for you and your family. Why don't you take trip to the Armenian Republic with your family? There are many tour groups that go there year around. There are many trips organized by young professionals and volunteer groups that might interest you as well.

And one last thing, gmd: It does not matter whether your children are 100% Armenian, 50% Armenian, or 25% Armenian, what matters ultimately is whether or not they have the Armenian spirit dwelling within them. And for that to occur they must feel like they are an integral part of a nation called Armenia.

Birth Right Armenia: http://www.birthrightarmenia.org/

http://www.birthrightarmenia.org/images/PhotoGallery/summer2007/week1/Armenia_vs_Poland_b.jpghttp://www.birthrightarmenia.org/images/PhotoGallery/Summer2006/wk4_Group-dance.jpghttp://www.birthrightarmenia.org/images/PhotoGallery/summer2007/week3/Haghpat_b.jpg
http://www.birthrightarmenia.org/images/PhotoGallery/summer2007/week1/Garni_3_b.jpghttp://www.birthrightarmenia.org/images/PhotoGallery/summer2007/week9/Amberd_b.jpghttp://www.birthrightarmenia.org/images/PhotoGallery/summer2007/week3/IT_2_b.jpg

Some more organizations if interested.

FAR Young Professionals: http://www.farusa.org/stayinformed_farfamily.asp?p=5

Land and Culture Organization: http://www.lcousa.org/asp/default.asp

[Fedayeen]

I'm getting tired of this stupid nonsenses.

gmd, I suggest you take your Japanese wife and children and visit your long lost homeland. You and your family will be pleasantly surprised. After you come back we'll talk about whether or not there will be enough Armenians in Armenia for the nation to be called Armenia anymore...

Where do all you people come out off?

Visiting a place and living a place is two different things pal. You can take your money and go visit the worst place of Africa, and let me tell you, you will have a blast.

[Fedayeen]

One says that he'll never step foot in the country again because it's corrupt, because he and his family had bad experiences there, because it's this, it's that... And more-or-less claims: What's the point in instilling an Armenian identity in your children if they are going to assimilate anyway.



When did I say i will never step a foot in Armenia again? :confused:

I care more about my homeland in a day then you will in your lifetime. Things I have seen, no one should go through. I do anything in my powers that I can. Your make me sick.


The concept of a fatherland supersedes the emotions of the individual. There are many Armenians from the region that have suffered worst situations than "Fedayeen" but they would never attempted to make some of the comments he has attempted here. This all has to do with the quality of up brining and character of the person in question. As a result, this has nothing to do with how wealthy one is or how much education one has. Sadly, many of our people whether they realize it or not are victims of the decades long indoctrinations of Bolshevism.



We are discussing the well being of our homeland...i guess little bit of reality is too much for someone who grew up in fairy tale :laugh:

What the hell you know about a character and quality of person. You think so highly of yourself.

Ara for asel em lav em asel, denet shat tak teghits@ galis. Go go live in Armenian, its much better place then it was years ago. And its looks like its goona get even better since Levon is coming back, good timing :wave:

I will come too, now how we make so others will follow?

[Fedayeen]

But thats good Armenian, keep up the high spirit. You talk a lot of trash, but i don't mind, i been in worse situations..hehe

[Կարմիր Բ]

This is a stupid conversation.

The reality is that we must get rid of the traitors who are sucking the money of the country like parasites.

[jgk3]

interesting discussion.. I feel I'm finally starting to understand where Armenian is coming from this time. I can imagine where Fedayeen and Shahan are coming from though.

In anycase, no one who has participated in discussion here seems likely to change their stance on anything.

But personally, I feel I have something to gain by learning about both types of people, and I like Armenian's words about repatriating to Armenia. I've never heard people speak that way on the subject before, and so I never imagined it as a prospect for a diasporan such as myself... Armenia, beginning to develop as a true western nation is a good thing for Armenians, and I wouldn't mind contributing in my way. I suppose I shouldn't fear the corruption there right now. It is not fear that should decide whether or not to keep us diasporans, but our spiritual prospects in this life.... where our spirit feels it will grow the most and generate the most positive impact. When you see it this way, then what Armenian has to say makes a lot of sense. Armenians who wish to leave, or to receive handouts in order to continue to exist in Armenia would probably be happier in America right now. If they had money and a green card, what would stop them from becoming Americans?

I'm still young though and although I have an active interest in my heritage and identity, I do not stop there. But I've wanted to visit my Armenian homeland. I never have. I would also like to journey in Anatolia, to see the lands I probably have more recent ancestry to (where two of my grandparents' families are from). When I look into the mirror, I see Anatolian. I doubt there's anything Armenian left in those lands though. Is there anything left to see in Bitlis or Sivas?

[Armenian]

I have noticed four types of Armenians based upon my experiences:

1) There are Armenians who are very comfortable with their heritage. They are proud of their national culture. They have a healthy balanced outlook towards issues that have to do with Armenia and Armenians. This type concerns itself with cultural preservation. This type also partakes in community events and they have a viable connection to the homeland. Let's call this type The Ideal Armenian.

2) There are Armenians who are proud Armenians but are somewhat uneasy about their identity. This type has some complexes for they see their identity as being vulnerable. Armenians are victims in their eyes. As a result, they are fanatically trying to prove something to the world: Armenian Genocide, Armenians are whites, Protection of Artsakh, Armenians are the best in the world, etc. Let's call this type the The Troubled Armenian.

3) There are Armenians who are insecure about their identity. They see their ethnicity as inferior to others. This type hates who they are. As a result, they are fanatically trying to assimilate into whatever niche they can fit into. Let's call this type The Self-hating Armenian.

4) There are Armenians that maintain an Armenian identity. This type partakes in Armenian community events. However, this type does not concern themselves with the homeland or preserving/passing on the Armenian heritage to the future generations. This type is essentially a good weather day Armenian, because they all disappear from the Armenian scene as soon as the going gets tough. Let's call this type The Average Armenian.

In my opinion, majority of Armos in the world today are more-or-less of the number four (4) type. However, the number one type, the Golden Core of our nation as I call it, although a minority, has always been with us and our very future as a nation is dependent upon them.

[Virgil]

There are Armenians who are proud Armenians but are somewhat uneasy about their identity. This type has some complexes for they see their identity as being vulnerable. Armenians are victims in their eyes. As a result, they are fanatically trying to prove something to the world: Armenian Genocide, Armenians are whites, Protection of Artsakh, Armenians are the best in the world, etc. Let's call this type the The Troubled Armenian.

Armenian, two things I want to point out, the first, I agree, some Armenians heavly focus on promoting the image that we are in the "victim camp", and I agree, they are troubled. They have a level of insecurity that it is beyond the norm. With this ideology comes the bridge with cultures that have no respective relation with Armenians other then the fact that they have experienced genocide, pushing Armenians in the same camp. Overtime, this becomes a excuse to embrace "liberalism" to a very high degree and "liberalism" generally leads to adapting.

My second point, in my opinoin, Armenians are "spitak", whatever weight this holds, it is the reality. Now, this does not mean that I think Armenians should begin to marry "spitaks" or that being a "spitak" is neccessarly better than being "non-spitak". Rather, it is more or less a reaffirmation of reality that will at least pull Armenians away from fracturing their society racially. However, in the United States "spitak clone" eqauates to the same "pop cultural" degeneration that any "pop culture clone" would confront. We are who we are, we should uphold our values. Also, I find it very important to go to "spitak websites" and make sure you don't have Turk xyz spreading Turkish propaganda because they do this kind of nonsense, they paint the picture that Armenians are not literally "spitak" and that they themselves are "spitak". Essentially, they try to isolate Armenians with lies and false information. Armenian, yec spitaknari het chem, bytz es yerkiroom el lava erank shipven spitaki het khanita daren Sev. Bytz omena lav ban vor kharoken onen ena vor eratz hye azge het shipven.

As far as "protecting Artsahk" is concerned, why is this a neccessarly a "bad trait"? I fail to see any connection to "inferiority"?

Also, with regards to promoting the idea that "Armenians are the best in the world", why is this necessarly bad? How is this any different than what Non-Armenians do? Its not bad, no, I disagree on this, this idea that "Armenians are the best" should be promoted. And understand, when Armenians truly believe that "Armenians are the best", the weight of the Armenian identity and the push to migrate back to Armenia will hold more importance to them.

[Virgil]

When I look into the mirror, I see Anatolian. I doubt there's anything Armenian left in those lands though. Is there anything left to see in Bitlis or Sivas?

Anatolian has no meaning, "Anatolia" is a fabricated name for the Armenian Highlands, the real and historic geographic name of Eastern Turkey. Don't be stupid, your Armenian, go back to Armenia and claim your right to be Armenian, don't be stupid and adopt the fate that was imposed on you and your people. There is no such thing as a "Anatolian" and it is when you believe this lie that you truly lose your right to your lands and history.

[Armenian]

As far as "protecting Artsahk" is concerned, why is this a neccessarly a "bad trait"? I fail to see any connection to "inferiority"? Also, with regards to promoting the idea that "Armenians are the best in the world", why is this necessarly bad? How is this any different than what Non-Armenians do? Its not bad, no, I disagree on this, this idea that "Armenians are the best" should be promoted.

Perhaps the "Artskah" example was not an appropriate one. I think we all should be obsessing over Artsakh, Javakhq, Nakhijevan and Western Armenia. However, I did not mean to say any of it were a "bad" traits, per say. Don't take what I said out of context. I was simply stating that 'obsessing' over issues is an indicator of a psychological imbalance within an individual. Usually a sign of insecurity, albeit a well founded insecurity. We see this in Armenians that have an obsession towards the Armenian Genocide. Therefore, this psychological imbalance/obsession within people can be used positively - but it can potentially have a negative impact for us in the future as well. I also have such "psychological imbalances," if that makes you feel any better.

[Armenian]

Anatolian has no meaning, "Anatolia" is a fabricated name for the Armenian Highlands,...

You see Virgil, you are now "obsessing" :laugh:

He meant "Western Armenia/Armenian Highlands" but he said Anatolia. Why get bent out of shape? He could have also said Asia Minor. However, none of these names would be untrue. The region has had all four titles, but we know that the locations real name is Western Armenia/Armenian Highlands. No harm done.

Have you ever called Artsakh by its Turkish name "Karabagh"? Be honest now! :)

[AR MENIA]

THE FUNDAMENTALS OF ARMENIAN IDENTITY OR WHO IS AN ARMENIAN?

In the current most complex period of development of Armenia and the Armenians, the problem of the Armenian identity represents not only an academic interest but has a serious practical significance. A strong national identity is a strategic asset in the process of building and strengthening a nation-state, while the dilution of national identity by no means facilitates but, moreover, hinders the consolidation of the individual and society around national goals and objectives.

After all, who can be considered Armenian today? As sensitive as this question is, since it touches the feelings of millions of people (especially our compatriots abroad), answering it is imperative. For an adequate illustration of the topic let us first present the state of affairs which the Armenian nation finds itself in today.

There are some irrefutable realities which we must see and accept exactly as they stand, rather than turn a blind eye to them, as do a significant section of the Armenians, including its "elite".

Thus:

Fact 1: The Armenian ethnicity is under the threat of extinction on the territory of its own homeland – in the Republic of Armenia, Artsakh and Javakhk. This threat springs simultaneously from a number of interrelated sources:

a) the possibility of military aggression by Azerbaijan;

b) a critical demographic crisis (the exhodus of over a million Armenian citizens and the ongoing emigration negatively impact the viability of all spheres of life in the country);

c) the stalling of Armenian nation/state building process as well as the solidification of its political institutions;

d) uncultivated state of Armenia’s National Security doctrine ("The Armenian National Security Strategy" adopted in February 2007 is a declarative document, which, according to official announcements, has been written with the "methodology" and "editorship" of Moscow, Washington and Brussels experts). Consequently, there is a conspicuous absence of a clear Foreign Policy Direction based on national interests.

e) Armenia’s heavy dependence on foreign powers;

f) social tension, including the class and regional aspects (inter alia, the artificially created but effectively maintained dangerous antagonism between "hayastantsi" and "gharabaghtsi", the total mistrust towards politicians and political institutions, the alianation of the people from the decision-making process);

g) the complete absence of any struggle against corruption which pervades all spheres of public life in the republic;

h) the lack of a consistent language policy in Armenia, resulting in a defenseless and vulnerable state of the Armenian language;

i) The Georgian state policy of forcing out Armenians from Javakhk using administrative, economic, cultural, religious, linguistic and demographic pressures, and now even through open show and use of force.

Yet, the foremost threat is characterized by the highly probable Azerbaijani aggression, which is being methodically planned and scrupulously prepared, with Turkey’s direct and indirect participation. If it were to succeed ending in the occupation of Artsakh and the liberated territory around it, the disappearance of the Republic of Armenia from the world map would be inevitable because the next, if not simultaneous, attack will be directed against Syunik – the last dividing bastion between these two Turkic allies. The existence of Syunik, without the shielding "barrier" of Artsakh, would become untenable. The weak communication links with central regions of Armenia, the absence of any defensive depth putting all of Syunik within range of Azerbaijan’s modern artillery systems, as well as the psychological trauma from the fall of Artsakh would reduce the defensibility of this strategically vital region to nearly zero. The resulting encirclement of the remainder of Armenia in a Turkish-Azerbaijani ring, will transform it into a ghetto – a kind of Transcaucasian Swaziland. Subsequently, the obliteration of Armenia by Azerbaijan and Turkey, if not through military action, then through economic, political and psychological pressures, will simply be a matter of time. Thus being deprived of any prospects for sustainable development and losing its role as a potential safe haven for the millions of Armenians scattered throughout the world, the resulting geometrically progressed mass emigration would weaken Armenia to the degree of being divided by and absorbed into Turkey, Azerbaijan and Georgia. Although the Armenian nation succeeded in eliminating this very scenario in the 1990s, the Turco-Azeri alliance, far from forsaking it, will attempt to implement it if Armenians prove unable to mount an effective resistance.

Fact 2: Armenians can survive only if Armenia survives – as an Armenian state and the Armenian nation living within it.

Fact 3: Without Armenia, the Armenian Spyurk (Diaspora) cannot represent a nation, i.e., a viable entity ensuring national preservation and reproduction of Armenian race (let alone the preservation and development of the Armenian language and culture).

Fact 4: During the last decades the inevitable acculturation and assimilation processes in Spyurk have sharply accelerated to an unprecedented level. In particular, as a result of emigration, every year the ranks of the Armenian communities are thinning out in the Middle East, where until recently the percentage of mixed marriages were extremely low, and the Armenian schools and other community structures functioned effectively. In 20-30 years from now there will remain at best tiny islands of the once flourishing communities of Lebanon, Iran and Syria, similar to what has already happened to the Armenians of Iraq. As for the Armenians living in Russia and the developed West, they are subject to even faster acculturation and assimilation.

Fact 5: There is no Armenian culture without the Armenian language. Along with the statehood and the territory under its control, the language is the foundation and paramount means of preserving the Armenian ethnicity. The fact that many of our compatriots, especially in Spyurk, can feel and consider themselves Armenian without knowing the Armenian language, is possible only thanks to the people of Armenia who still speak, write and create in Armenian. Let us picture a hypothetical situation where Armenians in Armenia have forgotten their mother tongue and communicate with one another, are educated, write and create in a foreign language, no matter which – Russian, English or Chinese. This would signify nothing less than the end of the Armenian civilization, the end of the Armenian culture and the end of the Armenian ethnos!

Yet, today Armenia itself faces the full weight of the challenge of preserving and developing the Armenian language (i.e. culture). As was mentioned eaerlier, this is due to the decrease in the number of users of the Armenian language (including the potential users – children who received and receive non-Armenian educution abroad) attributable to the emigration of our compatriots and the absence of appropriate protection of the Armenian language by the State. After 16 years of independence, it is high time that we duely acknowledge the fundamental role and place that language has in the life of a nation – something that the Armenian political elite and a significant portion of the intelligentsia fail to do. On the contrary, in the language policy, just like in certain other fundamental areas, attempts are still being made to regress the Armenian political thinking.

Conclusions

Conclusion 1: The Armenian nation is in the active phase of the struggle for survival on a fraction of its own homeland, preserved at the cost of unimaginable sacrifices. In other words, the Armenian nation is a struggling organism whose main, vitally important function is the struggle for survival.

Conclusion 2: The frontlines of this struggle for survival stretch out not only along Armenia’s borders with Azerbaijan and Turkey, but evidently also throughout the country itself, embracing the spheres of demography, economy, social life, science and education. Emigration, regardless of its reasons, removes Armenians, partially or fully, from the central battlefield for survival, that is – Armenia. Repatriation, on the other hand, results in the replenishment of a vitally necessary reserve for the country.

Based on the above-mentioned strategic considerations I will attempt to answer the question: "who is an Armenian?" and in what way is s/he differentiated from an Armenian by birth.

One is an Armenian if s/he:

1) considers Armenia his/her only homeland within two dimensions of time and territory – in her historic and present boundaries;

2) has strong psychological attachments to his homeland – its territory, people, language and culture;

3) feels personal responsibility for Armenia’s fate and assumes political obligations towards it;

4) if living abroad, seriously contemplates avenues for his and his family’s repatriation;

5) either is or tries to become the bearer of the Armenian language and culture;

6) strives to maintain his offsprings Armenian, including by means of passing on to them the knowledge of the Armenian language and by bringing them into the realm of the national culture.

Those of our compatriots who consider the country of their birth or citizenship and not Armenia as their homeland, who do not feel psychological attachments and political responsibility towards Armenia, who do not wish to think about living in the Homeland, who do not seek to be the bearers of the Armenian language, who consciously or unconsciously have reconciled with and are not concerned about the inevitable assimilation of their offsprings, can be considered Armenians by origin only, because, in reality, they are already either cosmopolitans or representatives of another nationality. Indeed, it does not matter at all if they shout from the rooftops that they are the most real and authentic Armenians (a genuine self-deception!). The fact is that these individuals, regardless of the reasons, are beyond the nation’s life-process and do not partake in its subsistence even at its most fateful moment.

It should also be emphasized that genetics are of a secondary importance in determining of an Armenian or any other national identity. The real identity of an individual is defined by his personal involvement in and contribution to the life processes of the relevant nation.

Thus, we should differentiate between an Armenian on the one hand, and a person of Armenian origin on the other. This does not mean at all that the former is good and the latter is bad. Simply, the latter no longer can or wants to sacrifice anything for the sake of Armenia and already has a fundamentally different national self-consciousness.

For Armenians by origin it would be useful perhaps to look at themselves honestly and without self-deception and hypocracy: They have actually left the field of the nation’s life activities. Nevertheless, the road is still open for them both ways – total and irreversible assimilation or the return to national roots, the rediscovery of the Armenian language and culture and participation in the nation’s life. In this sense, a large segment of Spyurk are potential Armenians. Unfortunately, such alianated potential Armenians are not rare in Armenia itself, who are fully or partially cut off from the Armenian language, culture and politics and who fail to perceive the common threat of extinction facing all Armenians.

I would like to repeat what I have written about many times before. Preserving Armenianness abroad, "hayapahpanum", cannot be an end in/of itself. The true goal for the preservation of Diasporan Armenians is their reunion with their motherland under the auspieces of an independent state, as of now on the territory under the control of Armenian armed forces. Considering the preservation of Armenianness an end goal (as a considerable part of the Armenians abroad does) severely weakens the most important elements of the same "hayapahpanum."

The struggle for physical survival is unfortunately the core function of life of the Armenian nation. It is this very function that determines and necessitates the fundamental pillar of the Armenian identity – direct and personal engagement in this struggle for the realisation of the national objectives, which presently are:

- the preservation at all cost of that territory, essential for security, on which Armenia (RA and NKR together with the liberated territory around it) has existed for the whole period of its latest independence;

- the increasing of the number of the Armenian population in the Homeland;

- the preservation of the Armenians of Javakhk on their lands;

- the building of a nation-state based on the principles of rule of law, social justice, democracy and protection of national interests and values, including the development of the Armenian language and culture.

There are tremendous practical, ideological and psychological obstacles and ossified stereotypes that must be overcome throughout this struggle. They emanate essentially from non-Armenian sources but are often coming in to the scene through those Armenian political structures which long ago or recently have fallen under the slavish dependence of foreign powers. The engagement in the struggle for the achievement of the above-mentioned objectives will underpin an Armenian’s ethnic resistability with such a breath of emotions, feelings and knolewdge that he/she will indeed have the drive and the need to acquire and become the bearer of the basic elements of the national self-consciousness – the language, culture, customs and traditions.

To sum up, we can conclude that as long as Armenia as a nation and state is drawn into a long-term struggle for survival against powers superior in terms of numbers, resources and territory (Turkey and Azerbaijan), the most natural and functionally strongest ethnically differentiating characteristic feature of an Armenian is the acknowledgment and assumption of personal responsibility – proportionate to his/her strengths and capabilities – for destiny of the homeland.

By Armen Ayvazian, Ph.D. in Political Science, Director of the "Ararat" Center for Strategic Research

[Fedayeen]

I have noticed three types of Armenians based upon my experiences:

1) There are Armenians who are very comfortable with their heritage. They are proud of their national culture. They have a healthy balanced outlook towards issues that have to do with Armenia and Armenians. This type concerns itself with cultural preservation. This type also partakes in community events and they have a viable connection to the homeland. Let's call this type The Ideal Armenian.

2) There are Armenians who are proud Armenians but are somewhat uneasy about their identity. This type has some complexes for they see their identity as being vulnerable. Armenians are victims in their eyes. As a result, they are fanatically trying to prove something to the world: Armenian Genocide, Armenians are whites, Protection of Artsakh, Armenians are the best in the world, etc. Let's call this type the The Troubled Armenian.

3) There are Armenians who are insecure about their identity. They see their ethnicity as inferior to others. This type hates who they are. As a result, they are fanatically trying to assimilate into whatever niche they can fit into. Let's call this type The Self-hating Armenian.

4) There are Armenians that maintain an Armenian identity. This type partakes in Armenian community events. However, this type does not concern themselves with the homeland or preserving/passing on the Armenian heritage to the future generations. This type is essentially a good weather day Armenian, because they all disappear from the Armenian scene as soon as the going gets tough. Let's call this type The Average Armenian.

In my opinion, majority of Armos in the world today are more-or-less of the number four (4) type. However, the number one type, the Golden Core of our nation as I call it, although a minority, has always been with us and our very future as a nation is dependent upon them.



If you look closely there are more than 4 categories. But nice try.

You fall right under the category who likes to think so highly of them selfs and separate them self from others, to keep the people divided, etc.

Just this last elections here in Glendale, there were like 5-6 different Armenian people running for office. Why? because each one thinks they are the xxxx, and won't lower himself to work with the others for one common good. Instead of working together, they all make their own categories like our great Armenian in here.

Anyways, what made you register under username Armenian? your the one and only one? (I am sorry i am not a good Armenian individual, its not my fault, i blame it on others everyday and hope things will get better :rolleyes:)

[jgk3]

Yes, there is a problem with Armenians, each one fervently sticking to their own camp out of the many that are available.

Can you inform me of the types/categories of Armenians that you see, Fedayeen? That is, while trying not to insult anyone, as this is a general trait of Armenians that contribute to our divisiveness imo.

[Virgil]

If you look closely there are more than 4 categories. But nice try.

I think he has the right idea, if you are a jackass, people will call you out. I use to think like you, "oh, let me not offend any Armenian, for the sake of appearing 'metsha metk'", however, the reality is this, quality is much better than quantity. As long as people know there exists a scale they will strive to be at the top of the measurements or else everything else becomes a race to the bottom.

You fall right under the category who likes to think so highly of them selfs and separate them self from others, to keep the people divided, etc.

Divide who? We are already divided, the idea that being "united" for the sake of "being united", is a assbackwards ideology that has lead to the depression and stagnation of the Armenian people. If you want to change the world you have to find like minded individuals that share the same fundimental beliefs as you or else the momentim that you build among the people will disintigrate because there exists no leader, no vision, just stagnation, like a prophat leading his or her people into the desert with no oasis in sight.

I think Armenian is the most level headed individual on these forums, on any forum. He contributes more to the development of the "idea" that Armenians have a state and it is only in this state that truly both the Armenian identity and interests can develop. Any other investment or time spent on electing foreign born politicians with the "grandiose" idea of piggy backing on the backs of foreign nationals and their tax dollars will only lead to further emigration, stagnation, and, eventually, extrapollating it, it will lead to the extinction. You are assuming too much, you are assuming, first, that these ideas of "piggy backing" is a new concept to the Armenian people, in which I will remind you that for nearly 400 years Armenians in Iran toiled and labored for the glory of the Persian Empire, but yet to this day they still have to pay extra taxes because they are Christians. You know the Hungarian-Armenians? Oh wait, there are none, they were forced to assimilate because their loyalty was in quesiton...hmm...what about the Indian Armenians? Only deserted churches remain and a "Armenian street".

And I am not communicating "down on you", I am trying my best to communicate to you that your ideas of Armenian "being a dividing force" are not new to the Armenian community. For 500 years "Christian Turks" toiled, day in and day out, to develop the Ottoman Empire. What happend to the "multinational", "multinethnic" state? It declined and in the process, because Armenians were so busy "unifying", also known as lacking direction, also known as "not dividing", they lost it all because they were not brave enough to band together and follow their leaders, right or wrong, to the front lines.

They died a cowards death I am sorry to say, I am not being "cold", "rude", and "disrespectful", but the reality is this, the Armenian people would have fared better if they follow their nationalists. No army in the world, at the time, had the ammunition on hand to stop 1.5 million Armenians, even with pitchforks they would had a better chance and certainly, they would have fared much better being meat sheilds versus being dragged into caves in mass only to sufficate to death by the smoke being blown into the cave (This is what Professor Balikian referred to as "primative gas chambers") or walking to their graves under the desert heat, so, please, let us stop this childless and romantic ideas of "pretending" to push forward the "Armenian cuase" by "uniting" under yan/ian last names.

"Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me" sums up the history of the Armenian people, we have made the same mistake numerous times. And to commit the same mistakes numerous times and yet not have the courage to address it because, knowing full well, that by addressing the mistake you are jeopordizing your existence is in my book the greatest evil.

Just this last elections here in Glendale, there were like 5-6 different Armenian people running for office. Why? because each one thinks they are the xxxx, and won't lower himself to work with the others for one common good. Instead of working together, they all make their own categories like our great Armenian in here.

No, they are not Armenian. They are Americans with Armenian ancestory, once you realize this fact, you stop paying attention to these half witts of the Armenian community that are falling into the same cycle of events of their ancestors and start focusing your attention "depi Hayrenig". Using foreign nationals and their tax dollars to develop your state will only alienate you (i.e. like the "choson people") and eventually you too will be kicked out of 88 countries. We had better men, in better positions in Turkey, Russia, and Persia, who thanked them and the Armenian people for their contributions to the empire? None, the same MIG fighter jets that was made conceived by a Armenian were the same ones the Azeri air force deployed on the Armenian villages. The fundimental tourist destinations and the root of "western" culture in Turkey was brought over from Europe by Armenians. As many point out, "we gave them drama, literature, art, history, science, and engineering" and what did they give us in return? I think at this point it is a question you should ask yourself when driving around in Glendale and looking around, seeing the influx of dollars immigrants from Armenia and Korea brought over that built the backbone of this great city, you and I reside in, only to be the target of prejudice shadow government that spends more time debating about the trivial code violations of Armenians, Armenian organizations, and Armenian businesses as opposed to the management of the day to day operations of Glendale.

Yeah, so I am accusing "Glendolians" of racism? Is it a lie? I think not, they have a grudge against Armenians, right or wrong, there exists tension. And I see the degenerate Armenians that ruin the good Armenian name, but the reality is this, for every Armenian that is assbackwards there are 10 that are not and the ratio is not same when comparing other "groups". One has to go to different parts of Los Angeles to appreciate the safety and stability Armenian immigrants have brought over into Glendale.

Anyways, what made you register under username Armenian? your the one and only one? (I am sorry i am not a good Armenian individual, its not my fault, i blame it on others everyday and hope things will get better :rolleyes:)

Well, if you fail to develop the future of your state and opt to live a life as a American, then yes, you are a not a "good Armenian", you are a good American. Its not about being a "good Armenian", the reality is the reality. If you have a degenerate people that are opting to live in the comforts of foreign states as second class citizens when their own state is in shambles, then yes, Armenians have a right to call you out. If you are trying to "adapt" and in the process drag foreign elements into the Armenian culture, then, yes, you are a threat to the Armenian people.

Understand, this idea of "unifying" is a failed ideology that has lead to Armenians becoming more marginalized, divided, and has indirectly lead to the destruction of their nationalistic feelings which overtime weakened the Armenian state. I will never support some assbackwards wigger nor any Armenian that has a non-Armenian spouse. I think you are the one that married the mongol? Funny, a "Fadeyeen" that is Pro-Armenian, but on the fundimental level is not strong enough to do the right thing in his own life, so apprently, I, should drop my support for Armenian, a man who has a developed a strong Armenian family and will eventually migrate back so I can supporta degenerate assbackwards mongol kunogh like yourself? Your a insult to the Fedayeen. Anyways, it is funny who is sitting on the high horse and trying to prove a point of "dividing", when the said individual is truly the one that has racially fragmented us, no, we are not "dividing" Armenians, we are just cleaning the community up. Its funny, now I truly understand the phrase "Turkish Gypsies", what Greeks use to call Armenians in the Ottoman Empire. We have succesfully become American Gypsies nowadays.

[Virgil]

Yes, there is a problem with Armenians, each one fervently sticking to their own camp out of the many that are available.

Can you inform me of the types/categories of Armenians that you see, Fedayeen? That is, while trying not to insult anyone, as this is a general trait of Armenians that contribute to our divisiveness imo.

NO, there is no problem, you encounter problems and "division" when you have to convince others of facts that are ingrained in common sense. This in essence is what "division" and therefore, in the long run you are misdirected because no one is brave enough to lead the people.

This idea of "dividing" people when in fact individuals like, Armenian and I, are trying to clean up the community and at least, bare minimum, pass over strong ideas, should not be considered "dividing". We are taking initiative, the idea of us "dividing" is a assbackwards ideology because the reality is that Armenians are already "divided". They are "divided" because on the basic level they consider themselves some prefix before consider themselves Armenian. And you know why this is the case? Because you have Armenians outside the "homeland" attempting to adapt instead of mustering up the courage to face that facts and assimilate. These ideas of yours and Fedayeen is not new to the Armenian community. Reread Armenian history, you will see the same sick cycle of events.

Armenians in America need to realize that, thus far, their acheivments will never equal the acheivments of Armenians in historic Persia, Russia, and Turkey, and even these in communities, Armenians ended up with the short end of the stick. I support Armenian even though we have a our differences regarding a few issues because on the basic level, it is individuals like him that will gurantee our future. It is not individuals that log on to my space, facebook, and all these "redundancies", it is not individuals that strive to wear a costume instead of being who they are, it is not individuals that are so weak that they can not push themselves to do the right thing as Armenians, like I have numerous stated, anything else becomes a race to the bottom. If you can set standards and you can no follow them then you are "tarvatz" on the basic level.

[jgk3]

I was referring more to "Armenians" in a broader sense, like the community you see on this forum, rather than towards individuals who are Armenian by their distinctive tie to the homeland, but you're right nonetheless about how we are already divided as a people.

But my comment on divisiveness was more of a speculation about how perhaps we could teach these cold facts about our nature (both at the societal and individual level) and share our common sense much easier if we did not opt to insult each other so readily. Sure, we can criticize each other, it must be of a constructive nature though, otherwise we get out of hand and our utility for others in that moment deteriorates (I see this happen all too often in myself, bah, who am I kidding, I insult people way too often, I just don't know if it's constructive in the end).

[Armenian]

This "Armenian unity" wish is a silly one, not to mention unattainable for it's an 'unhuman' trait to expect within a people, especially within a highly opinionated and temperamental people like us Armenians. What's more, we cannot expect any ideological 'unity' in a nation that is essentially trapped between various powerful geopolitical influences and factors. Consequently, some Armenians will tend to be pro-American, some Armenians will be pro-Russian, some Armenians will be pro-European... Some Armenians consider Armenians a middle eastern nation, some Armenians think we are a European nation and yet other Armenians think we are a Caucasian nation... Some Armenians think we need to establish normal relations with Turkey, other Armenians think otherwise... It's all quite natural, you get the picture...

As history of other nations (powerful nations for that matter) have shown, in order to achieve a semblance of national unity, there first has to be major bloodletting within a nation, a civil war if you will. Although we Armenians have at times been at each other's throats, limited engagements here and there, we have 'never' been embarked upon a national agenda of cleaning house - as most successful nations on earth have done at one time or another. During the First World War Dashnak forces attempted to eliminate Ottoman Armenians who were obstacles to our independence movement but for various reasons they were not able to do in effectively.

Take Virgil and Ara Baliozian for example - two individuals on the extreme opposite ends of the sociopolitical spectrum. How can anyone in their right minds think that these two types of individuals in question can be united (or should be united) under one banner/ideology... It's utter nonsense. In large and/or powerful nations the Virgil types have more-or-less been successful in grabbing power during the course of their national history, and today the Ara types live as free subjects under the watchful eyes of the governing Virgil types. However, in lesser nations, dispersed nations, nations without homelands, or extinct nations, it is the Ara types that have been successful... The Armenian nation has had a fair share of the Virgil types and the Ara types throughout history. Due to the peculiarities of our national history, not one of them was able to eradicate the other. And this is essentially what that makes Armenian history so complex- at times glorious, at times depressing, but never boring...

Nonetheless, there has never been a "unified" nation anywhere on earth - and that includes the deeply fragmented xxxish people. Had the xxxs not been hated and persecuted worldwide, albeit with good reason, they would be cannibalizing each other today. All nations, all religions are fragmented without exception. Nations that 'seem' the most united today are the ones who's governments are the strongest, most ruthless, thereby keeping the collective nation united under a single banner or myth. And as long as the Armenian nation tolerates traitors such as the former president Levon Ter Petrosian and his supporters, or self-hating proponents of assimilation as our Ara types, our nation will 'never' have its day under the sun.

[Fedayeen]

So you agree with the initial question that we Armenians are on the verge of extinction here and in homeland.

We have no body to blame but ourself, us...people.

If it continues this way i doubt Armenia will be on world map in 100 years. Its up to us to do something. Instead of pointing out each others differences.


Tomorrow you gonna go back to Armenia, but thats not enough.

[Virgil]

Nonetheless, there has never been a "unified" nation anywhere on earth - and that includes the deeply fragmented xxxish people. Had the xxxs not been hated and persecuted worldwide, albeit with good reason, they would be cannibalizing each other today. All nations, all religions are fragmented without exception. Nations that 'seem' the most united today are the ones who's governments are the strongest, most ruthless, thereby keeping the collective nation united under a single banner or myth. And as long as the Armenian nation tolerates traitors such as the former president Levon Ter Petrosian and his supporters, or self-hating proponents of assimilation as our Ara types, our nation will 'never' have its day under the sun.

Just to point out somthing, Armenians are not as fragmented as lets say Americans, the American government has to spend more resources toward making sure everyone is "contempt" with the government in order to have the stabiliy we, as Americans, have today. If the Armenian nation was ethnically, religiously, and racially fragmented then Armenia would have been divided in the early 1990's when electricity was cut and people were living day to day on foreign donations. I just want to make sure people understand that it is only the "Ara types" or people like him or people that have no sense of worth or common sense that contribute to more fragmentation or else Armenia and Armenian people, being a mono-ethnic, mono-racial, and mono-religious nation and people, respectively, (No, spell check so sue me!) are at this point in the better position then lets say Georgians, Turks, and Azeris. Just look at neighbors, their fragmentation has lead to their state being on a constant threat of being overtaken by foreign invaders via minorities.

Furthermore, this idea of "Armenian Zionism" has been the crux that has lead to the marginalization of the Armenian state and people throughout history. These cycle of events of having (a) Diaspora, (b) relying on the myth that the "Diaspora is useful", and (c) avoiding confrontations becuase our leaders choose to rely on (a) and (b) has been historically and will be the essentially, "nail in the coffin", for ourselves as Armenians and for our state.

Finally, the context of my statements are as important then the statements themselves, the fact of the matter is and you can not get out of this very reality, at least have the courage to face this fact, you have more than 50% of your population living in foreign nations, and ... I will stop there and let my fellow members fill in the bubbles.

[Virgil]

So you agree with the initial question that we Armenians are on the verge of extinction here and in homeland.

We have no body to blame but ourself, us...people.

If it continues this way i doubt Armenia will be on world map in 100 years. Its up to us to do something. Instead of pointing out each others differences.


Tomorrow you gonna go back to Armenia, but thats not enough.

Fedayeen, lav lesse, yetta uzumes hyeastana lav yerkir elni petka du "dram" goghanac otar yerkirnaritz, estan usumen "neo-imperialism". However, there has to be the emphasis of the diaspora to return home and once this emphasis is there, people are more willing to make the "pro-Armenian" choice. Now, you may as why this is important and for the nth time I will repeat myself, when you take away individaul value in yourself it is a race to bottom, it demotivates anyone to think about state because on the fundimental level, you don't think about yourself as a Armenian and how important it is to be Armenian. Yetta, everyone had this ideology engrained in their heads maybe we would treat each other better and not to overemphasis the negative, for the most part we are "el lav" then most people in these regards, however, again, go back to my context, state in shambles, diaspora out numbering natives of Armenia, two front cold war, emigration, and ...you get the picture.

[Armenian]

Comparatively speaking, we Armenians are one of the most 'united' people on earth, even more so than the xxxs in my opinion.

[Virgil]

Are you joking? :confused: Did you read this thread? If this is what you call being "united" then you should seriously brush up on your definition of "unity". The xxxish ppl are waaay more united even when they are not in their homeland. The real reason why Armenia is doomed is because of ultra nationalistic moronic Armenians that would rather push other Armenians and the diaspora away rather than embrace and include them into the community. You all hate on each other so much that Fed had to create 4 CLASSES of Armenians just to "help out" everyone in discovering who the real Armenians are ... Oooooo ... way to be useful Fez.

Understand, the reality is that Armenia needs quality over quantity and furthermore, the Armenian Diaspora is already dead because of men and women like your mother or father that opted to open their legs and home to a Non-Armenians. The reality is that you consider yourself Non-Armenian and you have dual loyalties, dual identity, and a dual lifestyle.

And Armenian was just talking about the degenerate nature of the Diaspora, you see, it is at this point that I can even begin to tell you how wrong your views are and opposed to the Armenian way of life. Your Armenian ancestors fought so they can have these very rights your parent pissed away. If I were to take you to Armenia, other then the fact that you have a money, the people would not really connect with you. Only a true Armenian would understand where Armenian is coming from, you being raised in this multicultural, multiracial, and godless existience in which identities are peddled on the street corner or the local mall, can never relate with me. a full Armenian by blood and identity. The sad thing is you probably can not even relate with a person of purely Greek extraction, this is in essence why people like me are fighting the good fight, but again, at the base you don't know what the hell I am talking about, I can not describe the color blue to you if you have never seen it. How can I tell why I dislike you when in fact you are alien to the values of the Armenian people? Its a fruitless effort, you just bring cultural trash into our communities, we don't want wiggers and xxxxxs, we want Armenian men and women.

Me for instance, I came here looking to bond with people from my ethnic background. I created a thread asking how I could get more involved in the Armenian community, which NO ONE HERE EVER RESPONDED TO!! Speaks volumes right there ... I also invited the whole forum out to a show where I was performing and all I got in return was a bunch of racist rhetoric from mental midgets. Turntablism is something that I was years into before I EVER came here so to bully me about a trait I developed before meeting you all is ridiculous. No one here ever made an effort to make me or anyone else in the diaspora feel welcome here and for that you should all feel ashamed.

xxxx you, I am not ashamed of anything nor should anyone else be ashamed of having preferences and sticking to them, I uphold my values and I will always uphold my values, furthermore, I would rather have one true Armenian versus having hundred wigger wannabes. At the core you already a handjob of Non-Armenian influences and, now, you want the community to accept you and teach you "how to be Armenian"? What kind of ridiculous nonsense is this? You don't teach another person how to be Armenian, a identity is constructed from your life experiences and life lesson you inharit from your Armenian mother, Armenian father, Armenian family, and Armenian friends.

You should go cry and whine to your parents that opted to raise you as a multicultural child, if you hold any resent it should be towards them not I, and certainly, not the Armenian community. People like me (Armenian and Non-Armenian alike) look at this identity peddling and cringe, I will never ever put a child through this cultural sludge, I have decided to make the right the decision and certainly, I will not make the mistake of marrying out and then expect a entire community accept my half Armenian child as a Armenian. If your parents have a "right" to marry out, certainly, individuals like me have a right to not marry out and absolutly the both actions are not equal, this is the reality. You are essentially trying to imply that I, as a full Armenian, have some responsiblity to you when I don't.

The reality is you are who you are, I am who I am, and we are who we are, there exists no entity at fault other then your parents. This is the reality you should accept, which is essentially that you can not ask a individual to "teach you" what he or she can not. I did not "opt" to be Armenian, it is something that was passed onto me. Identity construction starts at home, it starts at the basic level (i.e. eating Armenian food, speaking Armenian on a daily basis, bolstering interest in Armenia, and etc ...) and builds up to shape a identity.

And of those degenerate, half ass, half witted, and short sighted Armenians that treat being Armenian as a "religion" or some kind of "ism" or "classroom lesson" should think clearly and thoroughly on what exactly they are implying. Essentially, you are reducing our long history and sacrifices into nothing, taking what brave and proud Armenian men and women fought long and hard for to preserve and turning into a pickled jar. As mentioned earlier, taken to the infinite power, it will destroy and has destroyed the Armenian Diaspora. The reality is that fragmenting your communities will lead to further marginalization and assimilation, individuals that claim otherwise are just stupid, naive, and selfish, their mongralized and identity deprived child has noone to blame but his or her selfish parents.

What my incentive? To bring a half Armenian and half what ever else reject into my community in order for him or her to also bring with them foreign values and influences? Hell no, you as a wigger and "hip hop artist", what ever, "street culture", are a walking example of why marrying out should not be embraced. You reek with Non-Armenain elements, elements I don't want in my community.

YOU ALL ARE THE REASON I WILL NEVER CONSIDER MYSELF ARMENIAN EVER AGAIN!! Be proud of yourselves as your brilliant strategy is being played out before your blind eyes. Because of the way I have been treated here I will never talk to or befriend an Armenian, attempt to learn the language, ever make the food again, tell others about the genocide, and will certainly never date or marry an Armenian woman. You all have put such a bad taste in my mouth that I wish you all the worst. This is how you all want it, not I.

Exactly, a win for the Armenian community, take your trash to the Greek community. Listen jackass, you are essentially validating my argument and you were never Armenian in the first place nor were you Greek, you are a hybrid person, with dual identities, who at some point in your life, looked around, saw that joe black rapper has his own identity and wanted to find your identity, but the reality is that your identity was lost, cut at the root when your dad impregnated your mom, I don't know else to put it, its a fact of life, live with it.

The reality is that I should not be to blame for lack of motivation to learn your language or anything related to being Armenian, again, this goes back to my earlier point, you just view your identity as a picked jar, a novelty item you can enjoy at your own discretion, I, on the other hand, view my identity as a way of life, I live and breath it on a daily basis. That latter can not be "taught" nor is it something I can "teach you" and certainly, it is not something I can "deem" you to possess. By me validating you as a Armenian it does not change the fact that you are only half Armenian.


So instead of gaining a halfie-Armenian (go f* yourself Tom) who would have totally embraced Armenian culture for the better you pushed me so far away that I'm never coming back. I was trying to integrate myself into the Armenian community but it seems it serves Armenia and Armenians more to push me away. This is why the xxxish culture is a million times more unified than your own because they embrace each other no matter where they live and what generation they are. You morons ostracize EVERYONE including ppl that live RIGHT NEXT TO ARMENIA AND ARE ARMENIAN!! Seriously this forum is filled to the brim with some of the most ignorant, racist, armchair philosophers I have ever come across. I mean is that a Clydesdale horse you are all rode in on?? Did you pick the tallest one to maximize your high horse syndrome??

xxxx you, Turks are the most racist and ignorant people in the world, you are just so stupid that you look at the outer surfaces. If your ideas of "Turks being more 'unfyed'" then you jackass, why were "Turkish Christians" deemed enemies of the state? Why do Turks always try their best to appear white? Go to white supremicist websites, most of the posters are Turks. They try to paint the picture that Armenians are Non-White in order to have a high horse to ride on based on the premise that they were justified in commiting genocide.

Every Non-Armenain friend that I have, including the ones that are some kind of Non-Armenian mix agree with me, they are a handjobs of multiculturalism. They lack any identity becuase their families do not constitute a full a ethnic family, they lack important parts of the identity.

Again, unifying for the sake of unifying is a lost cause that people like you use a crux to push forward your argument. The reality is asswipe that when a people choose to fragment themselves under religious, ethnic, and racial differences the idea of "unifying" goes out the window.

Finally, I don't care if I "ostercize" you, the reality is the reality, I can only tolerate some half Armenians, I respect them as people, but they are who they are, they are only half Armenian, they can not even speak Armenian correctly and lack any sort of patriotism because at the core their loyalty is split.

And I should not feel responsible for lack of your identity nor should you put your lack of having a identity on the backs of other forum members. The reality is that you can't speak Armenian and have no idea what it means to be Armenian because you are not Armenian, end of story, get that through your thick skull. You are a walking example of why multicultural familes will fail, I have no obligating to accept you as a Armenian, furthermore, I certainly will never accept a wigger because, to be frank, I dislike wiggers and the culture they represent. Essentially, its not even the fact that you are half Armenian that I must accept, it is a package deal. A deal that only benefits you.

I'm even considering changing my last name so I won't have to deal with you ppl in random encounters when ppl read my last name off of this or that and assume I am one of you. Thank God I am not! By changing my last name you all will also not be able to look at my name on the several credits I have and assume I am Armenian . NO ARMENIAN IS GOING TO READ MY NAME IN CREDITS AND ASSUME I AM ARMENIAN!! F* that.

Don't let me stop you! By all means, please change your last name, down the line your decendents will then have no excuse to come back to our community asking for some cultural handout because they were deprived of a identity.

Your assuming to many things, first reach the mountain and then turn around and glout in your success. The reality is that I don't consider Micheal Vartan (xxxish), Nalbandian (quarter Armenian), or Kasparov (xxxish) Armenian, so what makes you think I give a xxxx what some halfass wigger thinks? I don't even like Charles Aznavour because his a degenerate jackass that escaped to France only to have muslim grandchildren.

Oh and if I am a "wigger" then you are all the original version of the word. Worthless, useless, ineffectual, and purposeless. In my mind that word is colorless so please feel free to address it to yourselves. All you have in your tiny little pathetic world is bickering about the same crap issues day-in-and-day-out ... like all the words in this forum will ever make a difference. Oh it does actually ... it makes a difference in the fact that no one comes here and posts because the ultra nationalistic dorks here push everyone away who isn't an extremist for Armenia.


xxxx you, no one is a ultra-nationalistic, you probably are to stupid to even realize that you, as a American, live and breath in a nationalistic state. Anyone that holds anysort of citizen is a nationalist, anyone that raises a anysort of flag is a nationalist, and certainly, anyone that opts to live in one state over another is a nationalist. And if we "represent" the "true meaning" of what constitutes a "wigger" then you represent the true meaning of assimilation.

Again, I could careless what anyone of your caliber thinks about Armenians, your parent was a self hating individual to not have enough love in himself for his fellow people. Yes, being part of a people means that you love them so much that this love for yourself motivates you to maintain your identity at all costs, anything else or using the crux of "I tried" evolves into a excuse. The reality is this, individuals will either accept that fact that the only way to raise a child as a Armenian is by marrying a Armenian or they will be confronted with children like Lamb Boy that have no tie to their people and are identity deprived. Love is not blind, people have a choice, you succomb to your pleasures and selfish behavior, you have to face the consequence, it is not up to me nor anyone else to come and teach you about what it means to be Armenian, you either know from birth or you don't, end of story.

Lamb Boy, thank you for validating my original premise.

[Virgil]

So this forum is like a giant black hole for Armenia and Armenians as the only thing you all do is invite ppl here just to suck them up into your event horizon and crush them at your singularity. It's like "Welcome open your mouth so I can crap in it." Soon the only ppl left here will be the ones that are already agreeable with all the uber nationalistic rhetoric. In which case you aren't spreading your personal gospel about the Armenian condition more than you are just preaching to the choir. "Speeches only reach those who already know about it" ... seriously.

xxxx you, you and your ways are a "giant black hole" for Armenians and Armenia. I would rather have one good Armenian as opposed to a hundred degenerate half Armenians such as yourself. The reality is that Armenians lack in nationalism has lead them to this pitiful state, you have historically a set group of intellectuals and industrialist that sit around on their highhorse talking about the "greatness" of the Armenian people, but on a daily basis are second class citizens in foreign states. If Armenians want a functional state they have to put their asses to work, no amount of foreign support and foreign aid will turn around a country, only the will of the people can shape the future of a nation. The will of the people does not include being a wigger, a punk, and God knows what other circus animal, but speaking Armenian only for the sake of novelty. It is mutually exclusive to immigrating, emigrating, assimilating, and certainly, adapting (In the process, asking everyone to change 3,000 year old history so these mistakes can be more "socially prudent"). The will people means exactly this (The Germans and Japanese know exactly what this means), the will of the people in shaping a state means the people will take anything thrown at them and make the best of it for the future of the state. Economic depression, war, and famine, it does not matter, they stay where they are and opt to live under the worst conditions for the future of their state.

THIS IS REALITY ... and I'm out for good so you can save your responses for someone who actually cares.

Good riddence, trust me, no one cares, if Armenians cared enough about themselves we wouldn't have to deal with individuals like you and we would all be Armenia instead of infesting foreign pockets as second class citizens. I just want to make sure people don't buy into your little emotional rant, it is good to have emotions, but sometimes it is far more better to think logically, in this case, logic is a better indication of the truth opposed to emotions.

The reality is that there are forum members that are half Armenians, the reality is that I know who they are, and I don't attack them. And they themselves accept my views because they know I am right and because they themselves feel identity deprived, they are showing a honest effort to be Armenian. I respect those individuals (i.e. Karothegreat) and those men and women I respect, those are the half Armenians I tolerate and will accept. If you are already a halfie and are making a decent push to be Armenian (i.e. double the effort of a full Armenian), I respect you. It is only when you come to these boards and try to validate your parents mistakes and don't drop your other half.

And you have to understand my stance, the reality is that if you deficate in jar and pass it on, chances are, at some point, the contents becomes so vile that no individual will ever strive to "pass it on". Furthermore, if you are that professor that has a choice, to give a letter grade or to make sure the student earns it, obviously, the latter option is the ethical way to proceed. Telling a failing student you will pass him or her only demotivates the said student to try his or her best. And finally, when taking away a objects value, men and women, fail to see value in that object, when individuals fail to see a value in a object they will, eventually, get rid of it.

[Armenian]

YOU ALL ARE THE REASON I WILL NEVER CONSIDER MYSELF ARMENIAN EVER AGAIN!!

Stop whining, stop crying, you are sounding like a ten year old that got his lollipop thrown in the garbage bin. To tell you the truth, Armenians like you make me ashamed to being an Armenian some times. If your 'Armenianness' is this conditional, this shallow, then please, by all means, do us all a favor and consider yourself whatever the phuck you want...

[Virgil]

"Condition"? What kind of "condition" makes anyone open their legs to another ethnic, racial, and religious group? Their parents themselves were self-hating to begin with. I have spoken with them, I have family and friends that committed such idoicy, each and every time, after the kid hits pubirty they started infushing onto him and/or her the Armenian identity. The kid becomes a hand job of the respective parent that is Armenian because that individual fears the consequences of his or her actions. xxxxers, yetta etkhan vestaek zhar vorshonknarov, why not force the other half onto the child? What kind of sick and twisted person goes and marries a individual that is Non-Armenian and then forces a Armenian identity on the child? A very twisted and idiotic individual, you are putting your children through torture and hell.

Armenian, you are giving individuals like this too much credit, they are lost from birth. All they ever amount to and do correctly is speak Armenian and being Christian, the latter amounts to being "Christian", not Armenian, so, even if they try their best they still fail. I don't care about quantity, I care about quality. I don't want "xxxish Armenians", "Muslim Armenians", "Asian Armenians", "Black Armenians" and what ever kind of mongral mix you can think of, I want Armenians, i.e. white, chistian (Part of Armenian Apostolic Church), and Armenian by blood. If you can't meet these points then move on with your life because you are not Armenian. Saying you are Armenian and being "Greek Orthodox" is a oxymoron, likewise, being black in a room full of white Armenians and then claiming that this kind of behavior "will not fragment your people" makes you look like a hypocrit. The reality is that if you want to pass over something, you have to be willing to "pass over something" or else any of these half ass ideas of Armenian by book or spirit just leads Armenians towards extinction at a much faster rate.

The reality is this, if anyone wants to choose to accept or not, I don't give a xxxx anymore, it does not make a difference, today or tomorrow, ever, history will be written the way history will be written, again, the reality is this, Armenians have a culture, but it is mixed with various cultures that subdued our ancestors. Essentially, it is a culture based on synchromism, the Non-Armenian and Armenian elements are mixed together. What does this mean? Absolutly nothing except that we as Armenians must work harder to stop foreign influences on our people, communities, and state, any other compromise amounts to our lose of our true culture and heritiage. Everytime you bring half ass individuals into the community with foreign values you just polute yourselves even futher, its a self inflicted poison.

Furthermore, the idea that "religion" and "race" are not important again goes back to my original argument, race is a identity and certainly, religion is a identity. I resent Christianity as a religion (Why? It is a recycling of ancient Armenian and Near-Eastern religions, there exists nothing that original, we essentially traded the authentic source for a fraud religion), but it is our religion and we must accept it, understand this very carefully, if we turn our back on Christianity, we turn our back on our history and our lands. And any "Jack Nahapetian" or "Ara Baliozian", whatever, any Armenian that speaks otherwise is a good dam lier and idiot. Any human being that viciously supports the idea of nillism (i.e. no race, religion, and identity) is also a idiot, the truth is many individuals that turned their back on these elements that form the backbone of a human being have found themselves again "infushing" their children with some sort of value system, regardless of what values they are, in the end they are "values" that like it or not, will eventually form a new identity. You can not get around this fact, just face the truth and move the xxxx onward. I am sick of these "sophisticated" arguments that lack any sort of common sense.

I don't care about being "liberal" nor do I care about being "conservative", these are flawed systems of beliefs, I embrace my values that are passed onto me, I uphold defined terms like justice, honor, and integrity (Not limited to these). None this of sophisticated arguments of being "liberal" or "conservative", whatever, they don't hold any meaning to me, they are political terms to seperate the individual into two camps. Any rational individual will see why it is necessary in some instances for a organized third party to get involved, while conversely, it third parties sometimes become a intrusion. I don't want "sophisticated" individuals, I don't want "doctors", "lawyers", and certainly, I could careless about lying politicians that are only looking for sheeple to sell their vote to, I want Armenians that want and will move back to Armenia, anything else is a waste of time. Again, we were kings of fiefdoms under various states (i.e. Ottoman Turkey, Shah's Iran, and Ramonov and Soviet Russia) what did amount to? Do you honest thinkg by subduing the "American people" you can effectively form a functional state? Is this the garbage all these "Armenian-American Organizations" are actually spreading? Lets get something straight, all these efforst will amount to a horses ass, get this through thick skulls. If you want something done you have to do it yourself, you have to eat xxxx for a generation or two, the question then becomes who is going to eat xxxx? Me, you, and anyone that has a remote inkling to better the status que or else putting your hopes and dreams on a bunch of Europeans or Americans that have historically been a great, but not for others, only for themselves and their interest, is just shear stupidity, it makes no sense, it will never make sense. This latter point is the zero sum point of the "Rights to Stuggle", if you haven't picked it up, I would go to a Armenian bookstore and pick it as soon as possible.

[KarotheGreat]

Are you joking? :confused: Did you read this thread? If this is what you call being "united" then you should seriously brush up on your definition of "unity". The xxxish ppl are waaay more united even when they are not in their homeland. The real reason why Armenia is doomed is because of ultra nationalistic moronic Armenians that would rather push other Armenians and the diaspora away rather than embrace and include them into the community. You all hate on each other so much that Fed had to create 4 CLASSES of Armenians just to "help out" everyone in discovering who the real Armenians are ... Oooooo ... way to be useful Fez.

The real reason why Armenia is doomed beacuse there are xxxxers like you destroying our culture, and xxxx the xxxs we are Armenians stoping comparing us to other people. And evrey one in the diaspora who constiders himslef Armenian and valuas the Armenian culture should move to Armenia as soon as they can.

Me for instance, I came here looking to bond with people from my ethnic background. I created a thread asking how I could get more involved in the Armenian community, which NO ONE HERE EVER RESPONDED TO!! Speaks volumes right there ... I also invited the whole forum out to a show where I was performing and all I got in return was a bunch of racist rhetoric from mental midgets. Turntablism is something that I was years into before I EVER came here so to bully me about a trait I developed before meeting you all is ridiculous. No one here ever made an effort to make me or anyone else in the diaspora feel welcome here and for that you should all feel ashamed.

Why should we come to watch your show, many of us live all over the world not in LA, I live in Europe. Why should we make you feel welcome, you should earn that by showing us that you can be an Armenian.

YOU ALL ARE THE REASON I WILL NEVER CONSIDER MYSELF ARMENIAN EVER AGAIN!! Be proud of yourselves as your brilliant strategy is being played out before your blind eyes. Because of the way I have been treated here I will never talk to or befriend an Armenian, attempt to learn the language, ever make the food again, tell others about the genocide, and will certainly never date or marry an Armenian woman. You all have put such a bad taste in my mouth that I wish you all the worst. This is how you all want it, not I.

I say good and don't come back, what do you expect us to do teach you the language that is the job your parents had to do when you were a child. And it's good you never will date an Armenian because you don't even deserve an Armenian girl.

So instead of gaining a halfie-Armenian (go f* yourself Tom) who would have totally embraced Armenian culture for the better you pushed me so far away that I'm never coming back. I was trying to integrate myself into the Armenian community but it seems it serves Armenia and Armenians more to push me away. This is why the xxxish culture is a million times more unified than your own because they embrace each other no matter where they live and what generation they are. You morons ostracize EVERYONE including ppl that live RIGHT NEXT TO ARMENIA AND ARE ARMENIAN!! Seriously this forum is filled to the brim with some of the most ignorant, racist, armchair philosophers I have ever come across. I mean is that a Clydesdale horse you are all rode in on?? Did you pick the tallest one to maximize your high horse syndrome??

I for one don't care if you are half Armenian of Armenian, it's youre behavior that I judge you on. You can't even speak Armenian, you don't know our history, why the xxxx should we considir you Armenian. In my mind you are not even half Armenian you are American noting more. Just on other dumb white boy who thinks he's gangsta.

I'm even considering changing my last name so I won't have to deal with you ppl in random encounters when ppl read my last name off of this or that and assume I am one of you. Thank God I am not! By changing my last name you all will also not be able to look at my name on the several credits I have and assume I am Armenian . NO ARMENIAN IS GOING TO READ MY NAME IN CREDITS AND ASSUME I AM ARMENIAN!! F* that.

Do that so we don't have anything to be ashemed about. And you never was one of the Armenians, and no one will ever asume such a lagod like you is an Armenian.

Oh and if I am a "wigger" then you are all the original version of the word. Worthless, useless, ineffectual, and purposeless. In my mind that word is colorless so please feel free to address it to yourselves. All you have in your tiny little pathetic world is bickering about the same crap issues day-in-and-day-out ... like all the words in this forum will ever make a difference. Oh it does actually ... it makes a difference in the fact that no one comes here and posts because the ultra nationalistic dorks here push everyone away who isn't an extremist for Armenia. So this forum is like a giant black hole for Armenia and Armenians as the only thing you all do is invite ppl here just to suck them up into your event horizon and crush them at your singularity. It's like "Welcome open your mouth so I can crap in it." Soon the only ppl left here will be the ones that are already agreeable with all the uber nationalistic rhetoric. In which case you aren't spreading your personal gospel about the Armenian condition more than you are just preaching to the choir. "Speeches only reach those who already know about it" ... seriously.

THIS IS REALITY ... and I'm out for good so you can save your responses for someone who actually cares.

Go and xxxx yourself and leave the Armenian people alone, I don't understand why you even came here in the first place.

The reality is that there are forum members that are half Armenians, the reality is that I know who they are, and I don't attack them. And they themselves accept my views because they know I am right and because they themselves feel identity deprived, they are showing a honest effort to be Armenian. I respect those individuals (i.e. Karothegreat) and those men and women I respect, those are the half Armenians I tolerate and will accept. If you are already a halfie and are making a decent push to be Armenian (i.e. double the effort of a full Armenian), I respect you. It is only when you come to these boards and try to validate your parents mistakes and don't drop your other half.

I hope you didn't mean I was an half Armenian, I don't take it as an insult or any thing. But I'm ful blooded Hay from Hayastan. :D

[Lucin]

I don't understand Virgil, What is his fault to be a half-Armenian? If his culture is 'tainted' or whatever, blame it on his Armenian parent; it's all parents' fault. At least the guy is not denying his heritage; he is showing interest to learn about his lost culture, identity and language.
What kind of a harm does he do to me (a full Armenian)? What kind of a harm does he cause to the Armenian culture? Are we as people that weak and shallow culturally to be influenced and tainted by foreign elements? I don't think so… And I assure you as long as there is an Armenia, half Armenians or the ignorant full-blooded Armenian crowd cannot 'taint' the Armenian culture.

Furthermore, at times the contribution that some half Armenians make, may end up being much more productive and more valuable to Armenia than the "contribution" that an ignorant, self-hating full-blooded Armenian such as Ara Baliozian would ever make.
And finally, me as a 100% Armenian, I would embrace all those Armenians, (be it 50%, 25%) who consider themselves one, those who attempt to learn the language (if they don't know), partake in some activities, in other words, all those who do not manifest some ignorant or/and careless attitude towards their heritage. Of course, in these regards, I consider some Armenians more Armenian than others.

And Lamb boy, had you felt so proud and comfortable with your identity ( Armenianness), you wouldn't have given a damn what people (be it Armenian or non-Armenian) say about you, whether they consider you an Armenian or not and you wouldn't have made a huge deal about it. It seems to me that you are not pretty comfortable with your identity.

[Armenian]

I don't understand Virgil, What is his fault to be a half-Armenian? If his culture is 'tainted' or whatever, blame it on his Armenian parent; it's all parents' fault. At least the guy is not denying his heritage; he is showing interest to learn about his lost culture, identity and language.
What kind of a harm does he do to me (a full Armenian)? What kind of a harm does he cause to the Armenian culture? Are we as people that weak and shallow culturally to be influenced and tainted by foreign elements? I don't think so… And I assure you as long as there is an Armenia, half Armenians or the ignorant full-blooded Armenian crowd cannot 'taint' the Armenian culture...

I agree with you Lucin, but "Lamb Boy"s reaction was worst. It's now obvious that being an "Armenian" for him was a 'fashion' statement, nothing more. Having said that, I rather have mixed Armenians who are patriotic than full Armenians who are self-hating...

[Virgil]

I don't understand Virgil, What is his fault to be a half-Armenian? If his culture is 'tainted' or whatever, blame it on his Armenian parent; it's all parents' fault. At least the guy is not denying his heritage; he is showing interest to learn about his lost culture, identity and language.
What kind of a harm does he do to me (a full Armenian)? What kind of a harm does he cause to the Armenian culture? Are we as people that weak and shallow culturally to be influenced and tainted by foreign elements? I don't think so… And I assure you as long as there is an Armenia, half Armenians or the ignorant full-blooded Armenian crowd cannot 'taint' the Armenian culture.

No, they can, they have, and if you extrapollate it, accepting individuals like this will eventually fracture our people. You don't live in the United States, you don't know what it means to see some of the rejects out here and furthermore, you don't know where I am coming from. Iran is a very insulated community and even if you don't want to "admit" I am right, you can at least admit to this, how would your identity fare or how about this, what would have happend to Armenians in Iran if they were to accept your views on mixed Armenians? They would have converted to Islam a long time ago and consider this, it is precisely because they are Armenian today that allows them to go across the border and buy property in Armenia.

Understand this very clearly, anyone, I mean any Armenian that claims "mixed Armenians don't taint" or "should be tolerated" should take a good long look at our history, what our ancestors sacrificed and really think about what they are saying. I am sorry to say this to you Lucin, but in my opinion individuals such as you, that are from Iran, Syria, and the Middle-East only exist because Armenians did not "opt" to take mixes. They first spit on people that even thought of marrying out and finally, they made anyone that did into a outcast. Your a product of what you now fight against.

This is my philosophy, creed, whatever, I will never accept mixed Armenians, I detest anyone that marrys out, and certainly, by assuming its ok to accept these halfies I am also automatically assuming that their actions are "ok".

Finally, anyone that thinks they are not brining foreign influences, they are dillusional, just the fact that they fracture our communities is in itself a influence. They only bring division, foreign ideas, and death to our communities.

Just answer this question, I just want a God dam answer, how would Armenians have fared in the Diaspora and during Soviet times if they were to "accept mixes"? They would not have "fared" well, you would most likly be Russified, Turkified, and Iranified. You would be in some town in Lebanon or Syria with no idea who you are and what background you posses. If you are honestly telling me that actions like these don't damage our communities, by all means, explain to me why it is then that for almost 500 years in Turkey, 400 years in Iran, and 90 years under Soviet Russia, Armenians did not mix with otars? Your premise or ideas made sense to people then, in fact, they had more reason to mix, they were living as second class citizens. Everyone talks about how its "so great" to "change", the reality is that this change is only benefitial to the states Armenian reside in or else stripping yourself of your identity and accepting foreign influences will destroy your ties to your homeland. Your child's loyalty is split, your loyalty is split, and certainly, this inself can be considered a influence.

Listen Lucin, anyway you slice and any response you do give, I don't care, I know exactly why I don't accept these individuals and even if you put a gun to my head I will never ever call them Armenian. Once you accept them you spit on everything your ancestors fought for, furthermore, once you accept them you are content on adapting, and finally, once you do accept them, certainly, you are bringing foreign yoke into communities. Someone that is raised xxxish and Muslim can never be Christian Armenian, someone that is black can never a be a white Armenian, and someone that is Greek Armenian can never be Armenian, its a fact of identity construction.

Furthermore, at times the contribution that some half Armenians make, may end up being much more productive and more valuable to Armenia than the "contribution" that an ignorant, self-hating full-blooded Armenian such as Ara Baliozian would ever make.


Do I have to repaste my Kasaperov quote? Understand Lucin, I don't consider any half Armenian a Armenian nor do I want "their contributions", I could care less. Furthermore, I don't really consider half the contributions made outside of Armenia as a "Armenian contributions". This is the loser mentality, this is the reason why Armenians don't have a functional state, they take these half ass Armeniansa and worship them for doing nothing but furthering their own respective careers. Yes, I am famous scientist, but where did my knowledge come from? Foreign sources, who did I ultimatly benefit? Foreign states. And not limited to science, assuming I am a Armenian artist, where did my sources and experiences for my art come from? Foreigners and foreign states, who did I write for and in what language? Foreigners and in a foreign language. Do you know why a Armenian will never win a Nobel prize? Because he or she does not live in Armenia, he or she lives in a foreign state, this is the reality you have to accept, once you do accept this micro example, my point of view becomes infinitly more clear, but if you don't, if you choose to live in the dark like most of these half ass Armenians in the Diaspora, then you will most likly assmililate and extrapollated, the Armenian Diaspora will go extinct.


And finally, me as a 100% Armenian, I would embrace all those Armenians, (be it 50%, 25%) who consider themselves one, those who attempt to learn the language (if they don't know), partake in some activities, in other words, all those who do not manifest some ignorant or/and careless attitude towards their heritage. Of course, in these regards, I consider some Armenians more Armenian than others.

You can, but I won't, I know the truth and, to be frank Luclin, that is a coup out excuse. The reality is this, anyone that opts to accept these Armenians under the premise that they can "drop the other half" is dillusional. You can't drop your race, religion, or ethnic identity on a dime, it is who you are, understand this fact and move on. I can't magically become not black, xxxish, and/or Greek, you are who you are. Anyone that states otherwise has to think very clearly on what they saying because it is wrong and leads to more fracture within our communities. Everything I have stated makes sense both historically and logically, why is it hard for any of you to admit it? Are you honestly going to stick to the illogic of your opinions when in fact the basic theories of identity construction state otherwise? What do you want to gain but absolution?

Sorry, but you failed to understand my point of view, you failed because your not going back and rereading why exactly I am fighting these kinds of opinions in the first place, maybe if you did, you would know exactly why I have my views and what purpose they serve. You have to understand, clearly, if you had a object and if you devalued it, eventually, individuals will not fight the good fight over it, if you understand this last point then you are one step closer to understand my views on the subject.

And Lamb boy, had you felt so proud and comfortable with your identity ( Armenianness), you wouldn't have given a damn what people (be it Armenian or non-Armenian) say about you, whether they consider you an Armenian or not and you wouldn't have made a huge deal about it. It seems to me that you are not pretty comfortable with your identity.

Your statements make no sense at all, so let me get this straight, I am Armenian and I dislike Lamb Boy, meaning, he can't connect with me, so in essence he can't really "partake" in community events, why? Because his identity at the root is different, does this register? No, apprently not, the reality is that the reason why Lamb Boy can never be Armenian because it is not something you can tangible learn, there exist no manual on "how to be Armenian 101" and if you say there is then you are just devaluing your identity, you are taking away any incentive there exists to maintain a Armenian family, and understand this, this has a impact on Armenia.

In fact, it is precisely because of our emphasis of having a Diaspora that forces Armenians to emigrate out of Armenia. When you have a two sets of people, one living in horrible conditions, while the other is in a "utophia", what would convince the prior group of living under such harsh standards if there exists no differences between both individuals? He or she won't, furthermore, what incentive does it give me to go back to Armenia if I have my own personal "Armenia" in Glendale, Watertown, Tahran, Bourj Hammond, and Istanbu?

[Virgil]

I rather have mixed Armenians who are patriotic than full Armenians who are self-hating...

Armenian, I would rather not have either one in our communities. Like I said, quality is far greater then quantity. I don't want someone like Aznavour that throws millions of dollars towards Armenia, but on the base level represents the evils of assimilation and essentially, is a poster child for adapting.

Furthermore, how can you honestly accept somone like Lamb Boy? He is a wigger, how much of a more blunt example of cultural pollution can there be? How much more reason do you want for maintaining a strong Armenian family?

[Armenian]

Armenian, I would rather not have either one in our communities. Like I said, quality is far greater then quantity...

Well, like it or not, we are going to have both and it's going to get worst with time. No amount of yelling, threatening and/or fighting is going to change the inevitable. So, deal with it. We will have our full blooded self-hating "Ara Baliozian" types, and we are going to have mixed Armenians. Full blooded Armenian patriots/nationalists will become an endangered species within the diaspora, our numbers are already quite small. However, real Armenian patriots belong in Armenia - not in the diaspora. Yelling about Armenian nationalism/patriotism from the diaspora rings very hollow to the ear. Since we have so few patriotic/nationalist Armenians in the diaspora we simply can't afford to turn away any Armenian who expresses commitment to the Armenian nation regardless of their lineage. Besides, no one can blame "mixed" Armenians for being mixed. Again, it's the parents...

Nonetheless, take a look again at these Armenian Volunteer Corp youth. Perhaps a large percentage of them are of mixed backgrounds.

http://www.birthrightarmenia.org/images/PhotoGallery/summer2007/week1/Armenia_vs_Poland_b.jpghttp://www.birthrightarmenia.org/images/PhotoGallery/Summer2006/wk4_Group-dance.jpghttp://www.birthrightarmenia.org/images/PhotoGallery/summer2007/week3/Haghpat_b.jpg
http://www.birthrightarmenia.org/images/PhotoGallery/summer2007/week1/Garni_3_b.jpghttp://www.birthrightarmenia.org/images/PhotoGallery/summer2007/week9/Amberd_b.jpghttp://www.birthrightarmenia.org/images/PhotoGallery/summer2007/week3/IT_2_b.jpg

Birth Right Armenia: http://www.birthrightarmenia.org/

These young men and women are leaving their pampered suburban lives and 'volunteering' their personal time and professions in Armenia.These young Armenians - of various backgrounds - are discovering and enforcing their identities, they are learning their language, they are learning about their cultural heritage, they are falling in love, they are creating networks... In short, they are making a difference. How dare anyone of us here say to any mixed Armenian that is volunteering in this manner that they are not a good "Armenian" just because one of their parents chose to make a non-Armenian decision...

Take a close look at all the full blooded waste of lives in the streets of Los Angeles. I much rather befriend a patriotic Armenian from a mixed background.

[Virgil]

Well, like it or not, we are going to have both and it's going to get worst with time. No amount of yelling, threatening and/or fighting is going to change the inevitable. So, deal with it. We will have our full blooded self-hating "Ara Baliozian" types, and we are going to have mixed Armenians. Full blooded Armenian patriots/nationalists will become an endangered species within the diaspora, our numbers are already quite small. However, real Armenian patriots belong in Armenia - not in the diaspora. Yelling about Armenian nationalism/patriotism from the diaspora rings very hollow to the ear. Since we have so few patriotic/nationalist Armenians in the diaspora we simply can't afford to turn away any Armenian who expresses commitment to the Armenian nation regardless of their lineage. Besides, no one can blame "mixed" Armenians for being mixed. Again, it's the parents...

Nonetheless, take a look again at these Armenian Volunteer Corp youth. Perhaps a large percentage of them are of mixed backgrounds.

http://www.birthrightarmenia.org/images/PhotoGallery/summer2007/week1/Armenia_vs_Poland_b.jpghttp://www.birthrightarmenia.org/images/PhotoGallery/Summer2006/wk4_Group-dance.jpghttp://www.birthrightarmenia.org/images/PhotoGallery/summer2007/week3/Haghpat_b.jpg
http://www.birthrightarmenia.org/images/PhotoGallery/summer2007/week1/Garni_3_b.jpghttp://www.birthrightarmenia.org/images/PhotoGallery/summer2007/week9/Amberd_b.jpghttp://www.birthrightarmenia.org/images/PhotoGallery/summer2007/week3/IT_2_b.jpg

Birth Right Armenia: http://www.birthrightarmenia.org/

These young men and women are leaving their pampered suburban lives and 'volunteering' their personal time and professions in Armenia.These young Armenians - of various backgrounds - are discovering and enforcing their identities, they are learning their language, they are learning about their cultural heritage, they are falling in love, they are creating networks... In short, they are making a difference. How dare anyone of us here say to any mixed Armenian that is volunteering in this manner that they are not a good "Armenian" just because one of their parents chose to make a non-Armenian decision...

Take a close look at all the full blooded waste of lives in the streets of Los Angeles. I much rather befriend a patriotic Armenian from a mixed background.

First, you overstating their mixed backgrounds, judging from the pictures probably maybe one or two individuals are halfies. And these halfies know how to read and write Armenian, are not wigger clones, and are white, probably Armenian Apostolic. And I don't like to justify mistakes by using the the argument that "the end justifies the means", the reality is this, if you choose to accept it or not, if you let yourself opt for trash you will get just that, trash. Now we are not opting for our own trash, we are opting for otar azgi trash. This idea of "opting" and or "adapting" should be removed from the minds of Armenian nationalists. My ancestors could have opted to "mix", but they choose not and I would rather accept the Armenian trash of Los Angeles versus any halfie that is only a immitation of the real thing. The argument individuals use is one that only accepts them out of desperation instead of fixing the problem. The idea that I have to go screw my people over in order to finally realize that screwing my people over was a mistake is just ridiculous, how about we don't screw anyone over and we stick to protecting our forts.

Armenian its not about me "liking it or not", I am just stating facts, if you were to go reread what I posted, my viewpoint is again against this kind of disgusting behavior. I don't want Armenians to volunteer, do you understand, the very act of "volunteering" creates in itself a justification for assimilation and adaptation? You need to clearly understand my point of view, I don't want Armenians to send money, I don't want them to "volunteer", and certainly, I don't want to have telethons and ridiculous nonsense like that because all these amount to is turning being Armenian into a state of mind. I want Armenians to face the reality of their status que in the world and try to solve it via hard work.

You have valid points, but if you were to truly understand the ideology I want Armenians to adopt, you will see that by adopting it not only do you strenghten yourself, but also you put a value on your fellow Armenian. Understand, it is this loss of value that has lead to degeneration of mankind. If you can not learn to love who you are, you certainly, are not motivated to love your personal values. A true Armenian nationalist is not one that goes marries en spitak, kananch, sev, yev khaputa, it is one that is content on being Armenian that he or she wants to maintain the Armenian identity at all cost.

Sorry, but again, hell will freeze over before I accept a halfie. And maybe I do accept them, maybe I do, but to say "I do accept them" creates in itself a weakness in people, it creates the "idea" that it can be "accepted". The danger is not accepting one or two of these individuals, the danger is accepting the "idea" that it is "ok". And how do you "accept the idea" by slowly defending these actions under the banner of "the end justifies the means". No, the "end does not justify the means", sorry, take this with due respect to you and your opinions, I just don't buy that argument.

[Armenian]

First, you overstating their mixed backgrounds, judging from the pictures probably maybe one or two individuals are halfies...

I know the organization in question quite well. I see and hear about the Armenians that apply for volunteer work. Many, not most, many, perhaps 1/3 or 1/4 are of mixed heritage. I can give you a more accurate picture by making one call if you are interested. Anyway, I ask you to reconsider what I wrote.

[Virgil]

I know the organization in question quite well. I see and hear about the Armenians that apply for volunteer work. Many, not most, many, perhaps 1/3 or 1/4 are of mixed heritage. I can give you a more accurate picture by making one call if you are interested. Anyway, I ask you to reconsider what I wrote.

Nah, its cool, no need. Just thought you were assuming your numbers based on pictures.

[jgk3]

I am 1/8 swiss. My grandfather was half swiss, half Armenian, so I guess he wasn't Armenian.

He was pretty much a turkified Armenian living in Istanbul who didn't speak Armenian, and his family were francophiles, answering, "We aren't Armenian, we are Catholic" when asked if they were Armenians.

He married my full Armenian grandmother who was very active in the Bolsahyemiutiun and she taught my grandfather Armenian. She raised my father to speak Armenian fluently, and my father married my full Armenian mom. And here I am today.

Presently, my family is more or less culturally assmilated, but because of the marriages they made, they "bought back" the Armenian blood in our lineage. Yet they don't give a damn about Armenia, although my father contributes financially to our distant cousins living there.

I believe that I am not the only Armenian that is 1/8 or 1/16 of something else. I have a hunch that there must be numerous incidences of Armenians in our history who married Christian odars if they were present in their regions. Key word, incidences.

In any case, I'm not very concerned with having 1/8 ancestry of something else... I have to say... It is undetectable. I'd be more concerned with the attitude I have.

So what counts for more? Your DNA? Your phenotype? Or your attitude? I think pro-Armenian attitude in itself is a decent indicator that you feel comfortable with your Armenian lineage and appearance. I wonder how many would disagree?

[Virgil]

So what counts for more? Your DNA? Your phenotype? Or your attitude? I think pro-Armenian attitude in itself is a decent indicator that you feel comfortable with your Armenian lineage and appearance. I wonder how many would disagree?

Jgk3, there exists no doubt in my mind that you are Armenian, in fact, the idea that half Armenians are not Armenian is not the idea I want embraced, who am I to dictate the "Armenianness" of a individual? Like I mentioned earlier, I certainly do resent individuals that are fundimentally corrupted by non-Armenain ways, I resent these individuals, however, any individual that is at least half Armenian by blood and meets the racial, religious, and ethnic criteria of the Armenian people can certainly choose their own destiny. It is the idea that "mixed marriages should not be tolerated" that should be embraced and bolstered. And again, understand my point of view, understand it very clearly, and certainly, adopt it.

Let me rehash it with a analogy, let use assume we have a wall, what good does it do to engineer a wall made of mud when you build one out of stone? It is no good at all, if you are going to build a wall, build one out of stone, yes, insects and miniscule critters will crawl through the cracks of any foundation, mud or stone, but for the most part, pink elephants can never ram through stone, they can certainly xxxxxle over mud, but never stone. Likwise, to assume that it is "ok" or "tolerable" to accept "mixes" lowers ones standards when making decisions. Initially, if you were opposed to a decision because you were afraid of the consequences, now, there exists no consequence and what used to be a "life and death" decision has been reduced to a marginal note in the back of your mind. When standards are reduced so is the value given to a that respective object, men and women fight over resources because they see value in its possession.

Again, nationalism and success of a people rests of the will and spirit of each individual. And understand, it is fundimentally because of this reason we must make sure our spirits are always motivated to be positive, progressing as a people or else embracing demagogs will demotivates us and our will to improve ourselves and our people will be destroyed.

There exist no Ahmadinejad in my argument, meaning, I am not a naive person that is dillusional, ofcourse there exists misguided individuals. Some friendly advice, never in your life assume the face value to any argument and ideology, always look at the point of view and why the person is motivated to reveal to you his or her beliefs, the hidden agenda always reveals itself when a critical mind is put to use. There always exists something beneath the superficial front. My argument hinges on the fact that you must put up the strong front to make sure that even if statistically assimilation and adaptation does occurs, it occurs on a miniscule level. People are animals, they are easily herded and dominated by constant streams of images and opinions that attack social norms of our ancestors and therefore, it is up to the educated among our populations to make sure they, the everyman and everywomen, does not foolishly adopt ideologies that are fundimentally wrong for the Armenian people and state. Education should never be used to dominate another individual, it should be used to guide them, never used as a form of a control, rather, the educated man has to humble and it is through his or her humble nature that the everyman and everywomen is benefited, essentially, pushing forward society.

And with regard to the Armenian male and female dynamics, understand, every action in life conducted in the name of the individual eventually reflects on the collective unit. This idea that the individual is affected by the collective is a lie, the truth is that it is the sum of individuals which affects the collective and shapes its destiny. Men and women are primative, the most educated among us always succombs to emotional cravings, therefore, it is important to act and protect primative ways of life. Lets stop playing cat and mouse, lets get to the point in layman's terms, if you as a man see no value in your women (And vice versa), if this is replaced with degenerate behavior and understand I am not naive, degenerate behavior existed ever since the dawn of "mankind" (Feministas, please, don't have a heartattack, "mankind" is in quotes!), again, if this is replaced then the intrinsic drive of a people is also hijacked, understand, everything we do as a individual is connected and we must learn to "pass it forward", where "it" is our Armenian values and beliefs, once, each and every Armenian and human being understands this idea of "passing it forward" then the world will be a better place for everyone. Armenians will begin to value and appreicate one another, taking this on the macro level, the Armenian state will improve and eventually, it will become a productive state that will better the future of humanity, I will stop here, good night.

[jgk3]

alright, thanks. yes, the analogy of the wall is essentially what I imagined of your ideology before you posted this, I'm glad I was able to read this and know I was right. In any case, those walls are the only thing Armenia has that keeps it Armenia. I don't really see how one can object to that.

[Lamb Boy]

First and foremost I would like to personally apologize to everybody here for the hate I posted yesterday on this thread. Regardless of what everyone here feels about how I was raised I certainly was not brought up to behave in the disrespectful manner I chose to display yesterday when I lost my temper.

If I get banned then I get banned but please understand that I am truly sorry for what I wrote and hope you all won't hold it against me.

For the record I am genetically 50% Armenian and both a quarter English and Irish percentages. Culturally I am 100% American although no one considers being an American an ethnic or cultural identity.

lucin I appreciate your candor on this thread and wish I had articulated myself in a light more like your own. To be honest I do have identity issues because being American isn't a cultural identity unto itself and I can't call myself Armenian so I am really left with nothing. Not a great feeling ...

Armenian I never have felt that having the ability to call myself Armenian was a fashionable statement ... I just wanted to reconnect with my cultural heritage which got lost in the previous generation. Sorry if I seemed so surface.

The reason why I am apologizing to be honest is because I don't want to disrespect the memory of my grandparents who I feel compelled to honor in any way I can. They never forced my dad or uncle to be super Armenian but at the same time now that I am older, and can look back in retrospect, I know they were less than happy that my sister and I were even further from Armenian culture than their own children. They got to witness the assimilation over several generations and realized that there was nothing they could do about it due to extraneous circumstances out of their control.

The little I know about Armenian culture (it maybe more than you think!) came about through them. I was always pestering them about Armenian stuff from a very early age and I think of all the times we spent together in Queens during those years had a major impact on me. I listened when my Nana refused to believe or acknowledge the ewish holocaust (lol ... makes me laugh now when I think of how heated I get sometimes and I remind myself of her ... she was "firey" :) !!)

... Ahhhh I'm rambling and giving ya'll a serious overdose of personal info lmao @ myself! So enough "justification" ... please know that I wrote this on my own accord and NOT because anyone asked me to. I am capable of admitting when I am wrong.

One last thing ... my dad did manage to videotape and record the events that led to my grandparents moving to America ... each individually. They met and married in NYNY. Also my step mom who is Scandinavian documented their stories and put them into a text document because after getting a taste of Armenian culture, like most (what is it otar odar) outsiders she fell instantly in love and realized how unique and special Armenian people and culture are. This is much the same way my good friend Danny Soder went to Armenia to take pictures of the oldest orthodox churches in the world and then totally fell in love with Armenia, Armenians and our deep culturally and artistically rich history.

My point being that you all more than I are a very special people that the world really wants to learn more about and understand better, but I am afraid if you isolate yourselves too much that no one will ever get a chance to find out. Perhaps outsiders are as interested or more interested in preserving Armenian culture than some Armenians are … I know that to be true.

Well anyway I hope you all have a safe New Years Eve … don’t drink too much and call a taxi if you know you can’t drive! ;)

[jgk3]

thanks, and welcome back. I don't know about the others, but I've made many scenes of drama in the past myself, and I've been grateful to be taken back into the communities I embarrassed myself in

You know, if you want to learn about Armenian culture, you can ask us questions and we can try to answer them.

I personally rely on internet somewhat to learn about my culture too, because my family just doesn't know about a lot of our history! It's one of the wonderful things about the internet and I encourage you take make use of it, and feel free to share your experiences or that of your grandparents and parents.

This is, above all, a place for discussion.

Oh, and I'll add that perhaps you should look into learning about your non-Armenian cultural background too, I think this will help you too in your identity issues. At the least, you'll be able to communicate about relevant issues and interests shared by their respective communities, and in that way, you will be able to contribute as well.

Virgil's analogy of the wall is real for national issues, but we are also all human beings and walls don't change that. Human beings have the potential to do great things for each other and for themselves, and so long as our motivation is positive, then I think we will be on the right track.

[Armenian]

Dude, it takes a big man to admit mistake and apologize. Your previous reaction was pathetic and childish. However, now I see where your true intentions are. I feel that you are genuine.

Listen, I have said it on many occasions: I 'don't' have a problem with 'proud' Armenians who happen to be mixed, especially when they are mixed with white Christians. My problem with you in the past has been your lack of understanding and dedication to the Armenian nation - simply your ignorance. Your Armenian identity seems to be selfish and conditional. You want it because it will make you feel better, it will make you feel whole. Well, that is good but it is also not nationalistic or patriotic. Dedication and service to the fatherland (or motherland for that matter) must be condition-less. Considerations for the fatherland is above all. You just want to 'feel' Armenian, so that you can 'feel' as if you belong somewhere... That is why I said being an Armenian to you seems to be like a fashion statement. You seemed to be a typical American youth. That was my problem with you, not your family lineage. Having said that I must also say I'm glad you have started your identity search. I feel that there is a 'fire' burning within you, allow that fire to engulf you in flames.

So, as long as you don't act like an ignorant American and you and I will have no problems. You need to make a few good Armo friends and visit the Armenian Republic with them. You need to start learning about your language, your heritage and the over four thousand year old history of the Armenian nation. I would also suggest you to kick the rap habit. Once you truly 'feel' and 'act' Armenian you will have no problems fitting into any Armenian community across the world. Your problem is that you are in your initial stages of your Armenian trip. It will be a rocky road, Armenians are a difficult/complicated bunch to get along with. And being an Armenian had its burdens. So, you will either give up and change your name like you said earlier, or you will stick it through and remake yourself. In the end, it's all up to you. Perhaps you can join one of the volunteer groups that go there. If accepted, all expenses are paid for you by the organization. But you need to have something, a profession, a talent, to give back. But please, do not bring to them any of that tasteless/primitive/brain-dead rap crap... Anyway, if you decide to go it will be a trip of a lifetime. You may just rediscover yourself. What do you say?

Have a safe and happy New Years Eve as well.

And welcome back.

Armenian I never have felt that having the ability to call myself Armenian was a fashionable statement ... I just wanted to reconnect with my cultural heritage which got lost in the previous generation. Sorry if I seemed so surface. The reason why I am apologizing to be honest is because I don't want to disrespect the memory of my grandparents who I feel compelled to honor in any way I can. They never forced my dad or uncle to be super Armenian but at the same time now that I am older, and can look back in retrospect, I know they were less than happy that my sister and I were even further from Armenian culture than their own children. They got to witness the assimilation over several generations and realized that there was nothing they could do about it due to extraneous circumstances out of their control. The little I know about Armenian culture (it maybe more than you think!) came about through them. I was always pestering them about Armenian stuff from a very early age and I think of all the times we spent together in Queens during those years had a major impact on me. I listened when my Nana refused to believe or acknowledge the ewish holocaust (lol ... makes me laugh now when I think of how heated I get sometimes and I remind myself of her ... she was "firey" :) !!) My point being that you all more than I are a very special people that the world really wants to learn more about and understand better, but I am afraid if you isolate yourselves too much that no one will ever get a chance to find out. Perhaps outsiders are as interested or more interested in preserving Armenian culture than some Armenians are … I know that to be true.

[Virgil]

My point being that you all more than I are a very special people that the world really wants to learn more about and understand better, but I am afraid if you isolate yourselves too much that no one will ever get a chance to find out. Perhaps outsiders are as interested or more interested in preserving Armenian culture than some Armenians are … I know that to be true.

Lamb Boy, outsiders are outsiders, no one will ever pick up a rifle for the sake of Armenia and Armenians except Armenians themselves, there exists no compromise to this rule, Armenians for Armenians. This is first rule you have accept. Yes, on a economic-political level, allies exist, but you have to understand, allies only exist because both parties have a incentive to work together or else, once intersecting interests fail to interesect, the alliance between two respective nations, respectfully, diminishes.

Second, the greatest threat to the contemporary Armenian people stems from multiculturalism. It is a disease that will destroy the Armenian Diaspora and since the Diaspora accounts for more than 50% of the Armenian population, multiculturalism will eventually spread into Armenia and Armenia will just become another developing state under the thumbs of American degenerate corporate culture. How so? New ideas replace old ones via the economic leverage used on behalf of the Diaspora to change the internal value system of the Armenian people that reside within Armenia, eventually, the walls that protect populations from being "replaced" will erude and the authentic Armenian population will be replaced by new populations, what used to be Armenian becomes a hybrid sludge that is no longer authentically Armenian, this is destiny of the western states, there will exist nothing authentically European in Europe if the trend continues and likewise, if this trend is exported to Armenia via the Diaspora, the same fate will be destined for Armenia. Essentially, you don't xxxx where you eat, but that is exactly what Armenians are doing, we are deficating where we eat. And understand this second rule exists in all ethnic groups, on the macro level, no unique ethnic group likes change, and certainly, on the micro level, individuals resent change.

Understand, individuals like me fight muliticulturalism because we don't want degenerate western corporate culture and multicultural sludge to be destiny of the Armenian people. Cultural change and progression should stem from the center of the Armenian state, it should never be imported into a community whether this community is a state, a city, or a home, it makes no difference, change should expand from the inside to the outside.

Well, how do you change this course of action? You first, as a individual make sure you understand that the idea of a "Diaspora" is a lie, there exist no such thing as a "Armenian Diaspora". Our beloved William Saroyan, although he was a great writer, failed to understand that there does not exist a "spiritual Armenia", it sometimes is not within the power of two Armenians to create a "new Armenia". Anyone outside the homeland has already given up their right to their identity, essentially, these individuals are already lost to centrifugal assimilation. What is centrifugal assimilation? It is assimilation that occurs because you, as a Armenian, are located outside the center of the Armenian identity (i.e. the geographic location where Armenians originate from and have had a historic presence, which was referred to, geographically, as the Armenian Highlands and where today, there exists a state known as the Armenian Republic.).

This understanding and acceptence of "centrifugal assimilation" becomes then the central axis that will fuel and motivate you as a Armenian to be more loving and caring towards your state and people. This ideology superceeds any that exists today, if you, as a Armenian, understand that the state is the fundimental engine that represents you as a individual on the global stage then you, certainly, are motivated to preserve your state at all costs. Eventually, this then leads you to be pro-Armenian at all levels (And I mean "at all levels", on the micro and the macro!). Therefore, it is important consider the Diaspora as a lost cause, there exist no such thing, there only exists the Armenian state and people.

With reference to your comments regarding otars and their "interests" in Armenia, I don't want otars to preserve anything, let them stick to their own kind, we don't need them, we need to be nationalistic like Germans and Japanese if we are going to survive the new age, monoethnic, monoracial, and holding the same religious beleifs, this is the most purest form of a nationalism, this idea that the state is greater then the individual should be championed. And understand this has to be bolstered in order to make sure (a) civil war does not occur, (b) foreign entities do not try to create a puppet government (Iran, Turkey, and Russia, all are trying to "court" Armenia, this is a reality we have to accept, we have to make sure all deals are fair and balanced, certainly, all these deals are only political in nature and are not any indication of "good" or "bad" individual relations with the respective citizens of those respective states), and (c) our national resources are in the control of the Armenian people.

Understand, Armenians don't have the populations to absorb new individuals and certainly, we don't have the population to accept foreign ideas. I want each and every Armenian to be a nationalistic superman and superwomen, I want them to eat "Armenianness" for breakfest, lunch, and dinner this is going to defeat our enemies that want to depopulate Armenia. What our enemies want us to do is to continually emigrate out of Armenia, is to champion the idea of a "Diaspora".

You have to understand this fundimental rules of being Armenian, contrary to popular belief, being Armenian is a not a "state of mind", it is a ethnic group, we are white, we are christian, and we are Armenian. The most important of these three titles is that last one, in order to stay unique we must bolster actions that will champion our unique identity, anything else will amount to selling ourselves short and, most importantly, selling out our culture for the denegerate values that are being peddled to developing nations under the banner of "modernaty" and "progession".

How do you accomplish this? Well, for starters, you have to go back to the primative, but productive ideology of our ancestors. Essentially, they were living under the multicultural states that today are considered a "new phenomenon" in the west, the reality is that these states already existed and Armenians have already been exposed to them. In the end the Armenians under these governments had a long history of experiences that had taught them that the only to maintain a identity and culture is to keep it insulated with Armenian sources, meaning, you marry Armenian and support Armenians in all endevours.

However, today these fundimental laws that have preserved our identity and culture, which has allowed us to exist up until era where we are privalged to have a Fatherland (Never use "Motherland" to describe your state, it is always Fatherland!) and has certainly, allowed us to allocate resources to this state are being attacked by individuals within the community that have a personal interest to change 3,000 years of collective knowledge. This knowledge is priceless, Armenians must really dig deep into their past to understand why Armenians hold these values because they do stem from our previous experiences as a people under oppresive regimes.

You have to understand, you are not "African-American" (AKA Wigger!), you are Armenian, you are not Armenian-American, you are Armenian, and you are not English and Armenian, again, you are only Armenian. If you truly want to be Armenian and want other Armenians within the community to welcome you, you must make a honest effort to change and adopt the true ways and values of the Armenian people or else clinging to pop-culture and championing multiculturalism will only make you seem like a "agent provocateur".

[Lucin]

Lamb boy,
I also believe that your initial reaction was a bit childish. Actually it wasn't very Armenian of you. Anyway, we can help you learn more how to be an Armo and have a rebirth if you will, by overcoming this identity crisis.

Nice to see you back. :)

you can at least admit to this, how would your identity fare or how about this, what would have happend to Armenians in Iran if they were to accept your views on mixed Armenians? They would have converted to Islam a long time ago...


That's a different story... I will in no way accept such mixes with Africans, Muslims or J.ews and interestingly, all these types I have met in my life have much stronger tendencies towards their non-Armenian side.

we are privalged to have a Fatherland (Never use "Motherland" to describe your state, it is always Fatherland!)

Just curious, why? ( And I am not a feminist at all) :)

[Alexzan]

I am just wondering but.
What would happen if ALL OF THE DIASPORA were to move to Armenia?

[crusader1492]

I am just wondering but.
What would happen if ALL OF THE DIASPORA were to move to Armenia?

If you mean all at once (or within a short time period), then it would be just like any foreign element entering a state en masse...cultural and political chaos (think Mexicans and the USA).

With that said, I'm all for diasporan Armenians to move to Armenia, but in a controlled and deliberate way.

Anyway, it doesn't look like Armenia will have this problem anytime soon, if ever.

[Yedtarts]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5GoTfPAGFo

[jgk3]

The music is by Yanni :confused:

kind of ironic if it's trying to tell "our music".

It uses nice imagery and words though.

[Virgil]

The music is by Yanni :confused:

kind of ironic if it's trying to tell "our music".

It uses nice imagery and words though.

What do you think of this one?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=JyQnvhmguKA

[jgk3]

that one speaks far more to the heart.

[Fedayeen]

Is there still anybody who thinks we are not on the verge of extinction?

[Artandsky]

Hi guys,

Before I start, must say English is not my first language so would like to apologise in advance for my poor grammar.
By the way to my shame Armenian is also not my first language. As my mother say for Armenians in Armenia we are (Shurtevac) ;-). As we are Armenians from Georgia that lived there for centuries we had some litle differences in mentality and many of us spoke Georgian or Russian.
Ok let me get to the point;
This topic touched me so bad that I bothered myself to register to give my point of view on it; if I may?
I actually tend to be more pessimistic about future of our nation.
As most would agree we do not have in our culture tradition to bread like rabbits, plus influence of western fashion on having few babies or non at all is strong. Aggravated with bad economical situation in Armenia and immigration it looks like in long run if it continuos like that there won’t be any significant population left to defend this small rocky highlands called Armenia.
Especially keeping in mind that our “beloved” neighbours do bread like rabbits and have a plans to finish us off.
My fear is that we might end up like Assyrie people.
I am living in Europe in comfort, with job that I’m happy of, and nearly totally assimilated to western life like many others of our kind. That is the reality. If war will start, (I strongly belief it will) of course many of us will help and join the straggle. But real chance we have if we maintain strong alliance with superpower. No matter how brave we are, it’s simply to many of them and unfortunately we are not as good organised as we should be to resist this mass.

Most critical point is
1. To rid of corruption. That is the real “killer” for Armenia economy.
2. Brake the blockade. At least through Georgia. For that Armenian politicians must work on peace between Georgia and Russia (it wont be easy one).

If economy start growing, naturally people will repatriate. I personally will return with my skills to contribute, like many others I’m sure. It is pointless to comeback and live in poverty with blind patriotism as one might become fed up and do more harm than good.

Please remember my Armenian patriots, only way we can survive if we put our brains to good use.
Stone age bravery is good but won’t be enough in our situation.

Greets
A. P.

[jgk3]

thanks for your input. I've never been to Armenia so I can't really say anything about it. I plan to go in a year or two. Till then, I'd like to take some courses in Armenian at the university here that offers it, apparently they teach you to speak, read and write Armenian better than Armenians themselves (well, in general).

[truAnatolian]

Artandsky! Yes my friend! You are level head and wise indeed.
God bless you!

Quality > Quantity is the history of our people and that should not change. That is what made 1 Armenian = 7 azeris in the karabakh war.

I too hope to take my skills and enrich our nation.

Good luck to you and your aspirations, Now go learn armenian! :)