Armenia and Byzantium

[Behelit]

Shad shenorhagal em !

Armenian stated:

"I rather have an enemy like Greeks than a friend like Turks"

...

OK thank you for the clarification aper

It is really sad that Turks are tolerated here.For what i have seen most of them are provocateurs.

[Armanen]

Re: Armenia and Byzantium

It is obvious that Turks bear a very large pre-Turkic Anatolian component. The resemblance to Greeks and Armenians is remarkable, although some Turkic elements are apparent.

Does anyone care to comment on what in Turkish culture makes the Turks in history so ruthless? I don't believe it's genetics at all, on principle, and also on the basis that many other Turkic peoples (Kazakhs, Tatars, Uzbeks, etc.) have not demonstrated this degree of ferocity.

Is it Islam? If so, how can we explain why Persians and Arabs never gave rise to such a culture, and in the late 19th and early 20th century in particular, never resorted to the tactics of the Ottomans, or at least not to such a degree.

The pre turkic component that you speak is a direct result of over 600 years of rape and assimilation by the orcs, so it should be no suprise that they look caucasian now rather than mongolian.

I would say genetics and the nomadic lifestyle are two important reasons why they are such animals. And while turks happen to be the vilest of the mongols, lets not forget what their uzbek cousins did under tamerlane, the mongols led by Genghis, etc. Throughout history nomads have been barbarians that have usully contributed to the decline or fall of various empires/civilizations. But when I compare the ruthlessness of the Germanic tribes with that of the turkic ones, it is eveident to me, that genetics does have its part to play, how great is open to interpretation.

I think islam is only a minor reason for their barbarity, now adays it is often used by zionists or pro zionists to gain "western" support on their side, so I do not encourage islamophobia. And like you said, if islam were really a major reason why, then how does one explain the relative temperence shown by the arabs and persians among others?

[Virgil]

Re: Armenia and Byzantium

The pre turkic component that you speak is a direct result of over 600 years of rape and assimilation by the orcs, so it should be no suprise that they look caucasian now rather than mongolian.

I would say genetics and the nomadic lifestyle are two important reasons why they are such animals. And while turks happen to the vilest of the mongols, lets not forget what their uzbek cousins did under tamerlane, the mongols led by Genghis, etc. Throughout history nomads have been barbarians that have usully contributed to the decline or fall of various empires. But when I compare the ruthlessness of the Germanic tribes with that of the turkic ones, it is eveident to me, that genetics does have its part to play in it, how great is open to interpretation.

I think islam is only a minor reason for their barbarity, now adays it is often used by zionists or pro zionists to gain "western" support on their side, so I do not encourage islamophobia. And like you said, if islam were really a major reason why, then how does one explain the relative temperence shown by the arabs and persians among others?

I just want to chemy in here and make it a point that the genetic influence was very much one way versus pre-islam and pre-christianity in the region, I would say, during Pagan times, the regions cultural exchange is questionable in that, there is no way to prove how the people behaved, the upper class most likely mixed with Partheian kings and queens, however, the lower class, hard to predict.

However, after 200 AD or so, the religious differences truly seperate the Armenian people from the rest of the populations in the region. This probably was the same during the Ottoman Empire, if you notice, Turks, they don't look exactly alike, there exists a varying degree of difference, some look Armenian, Greek, Serb, Asian, or Arab, but, conversely, Armenians look Armenian. Obviously, I would say Armenians may have some admixture with Christians in the region, Crusaders, Assyrians, Greeks, and etc ... however, very rarely would a Christian family mix with a Muslim family. And I don't mean this with a degree of "eliteism", rather, just being objective. For Turks, it was always customary to take brides into the home, not rape them and leave them, furthermore, most of the time, especially in the Armenian community, I know from stories from the genocide that it was very common for a Armenian women to commit suicide if she was raped. Anyways, just to clarify that this idea of "turk" admixture with "Armenians" is a myth, well, it is true to a certain extent, but one way only, Armenian genes to Turks, not vice versa.

[Armenian]

Re: Armenia and Byzantium

It is obvious that Turks bear a very large pre-Turkic Anatolian component. The resemblance to Greeks and Armenians is remarkable, although some Turkic elements are apparent.

Modern Turks are more-or-less assimilated Anatolians. They look for the most part native to Anatolia, however, with a distinct Asiatic and Semitic flavoring.

Does anyone care to comment on what in Turkish culture makes the Turks in history so ruthless? I don't believe it's genetics at all, on principle, and also on the basis that many other Turkic peoples (Kazakhs, Tatars, Uzbeks, etc.) have not demonstrated this degree of ferocity.

In my opinion, it has to do with their inherited Asiatic "Turk" identity; their Islamic culture which compliments their already barbaric nature; and the simple fact that Anatolian peoples, like Caucasians, can be very-very brutal.

[HayotzAmrotz]

Re: Armenia and Byzantium

The role of Islam in modern Turkish ruling elite is absolutely minimal. In the past Islam was allowed to play a role in their ambitions but it has always acted basically as a shop front to the real Turkish religion, which for a lack of a strong intellectual fundament was not as strongly cemented in their psyche as it is now. But at the end of the 19th century their religion finally found its “bible” and from then on the majority of the Turkish ruling elite and their entire military command together with some of the most influential people in Turkey and abroad in their Diasporas are shaped and driven only by one thing, a powerful and genuinely Turkish ideology known as Ülkücü (Idealist), which is based on writings of 19th century Turkish nationalist Ziya Gokalp who combined the elements of the ancient Turkish religion, which Turks brought with them from Altay and have always practiced, with ultra nationalist ideas. Gokalp’s works were followed by a number of other Turkish nationalist intellectuals/writers who advanced his ideas even further and created what we have today: A nationalist Turkey with ultra nationalist ruling elite.

So, number one: let’s stop associating so much the religion of Islam with the Turks, and most importantly, number two: let’s recognize our enemy for what he really is. This enemy can only be defeated by at least an equally strong nationalist ideology, something that for example their current, active adversaries (the Kurds) simply don’t have. But we do! Our Tseghakronutiun serves as an extremely sound and solid fundament upon which we can build further and then stand on it and aim right at heart of our enemy to destroy him today in order not to be destroyed by them and their lackeys tomorrow.

[Kanki]

Re: Armenia and Byzantium

The role of Islam in modern Turkish ruling elite is absolutely minimal. In the past Islam was allowed to play a role in their ambitions but it has always acted basically as a shop front to the real Turkish religion, which for a lack of a strong intellectual fundament was not as strongly cemented in their psyche as it is now. But at the end of the 19th century their religion finally found its “bible” and from then on the majority of the Turkish ruling elite and their entire military command together with some of the most influential people in Turkey and abroad in their Diasporas are shaped and driven only by one thing, a powerful and genuinely Turkish ideology known as Ülkücü (Idealist), which is based on writings of 19th century Turkish nationalist Ziya Gokalp who combined the elements of the ancient Turkish religion, which Turks brought with them from Altay and have always practiced, with ultra nationalist ideas. Gokalp’s works were followed by a number of other Turkish nationalist intellectuals/writers who advanced his ideas even further and created what we have today: A nationalist Turkey with ultra nationalist ruling elite.

So, number one: let’s stop associating so much the religion of Islam with the Turks, and most importantly, number two: let’s recognize our enemy for what he really is. This enemy can only be defeated by at least an equally strong nationalist ideology, something that for example their current, active adversaries (the Kurds) simply don’t have. But we do! Our Tseghakronutiun serves as an extremely sound and solid fundament upon which we can build further and then stand on it and aim right at heart of our enemy to destroy him today in order not to be destroyed by them and their lackeys tomorrow.

You are objective, I accept your ideas as a Turk.

[jgk3]

Re: Armenia and Byzantium

good posts guys.

[Armenian]

Re: Armenia and Byzantium

Bravo Amrotz, Islam has never been a serious problem to us Armenians. During the First World War, it was Islamic states that readily accepted Armenian survivors into their nations. And look at the kind of relationship we enjoy with an Islamic 'fundamentalist' state like Iran. Our primary problem has had to do with Turkish nationalism, and by extension pan-Turkism. Sadly, many of our sheeple tie Islam to the Turkish equation, without realizing that the Armenian Genocide was orchestrated by 'secular' Turks. many of whom were of Jewish ancestry.

The role of Islam in modern Turkish ruling elite is absolutely minimal. In the past Islam was allowed to play a role in their ambitions but it has always acted basically as a shop front to the real Turkish religion, which for a lack of a strong intellectual fundament was not as strongly cemented in their psyche as it is now. But at the end of the 19th century their religion finally found its “bible” and from then on the majority of the Turkish ruling elite and their entire military command together with some of the most influential people in Turkey and abroad in their Diasporas are shaped and driven only by one thing, a powerful and genuinely Turkish ideology known as Ülkücü (Idealist), which is based on writings of 19th century Turkish nationalist Ziya Gokalp who combined the elements of the ancient Turkish religion, which Turks brought with them from Altay and have always practiced, with ultra nationalist ideas. Gokalp’s works were followed by a number of other Turkish nationalist intellectuals/writers who advanced his ideas even further and created what we have today: A nationalist Turkey with ultra nationalist ruling elite. So, number one: let’s stop associating so much the religion of Islam with the Turks, and most importantly, number two: let’s recognize our enemy for what he really is. This enemy can only be defeated by at least an equally strong nationalist ideology, something that for example their current, active adversaries (the Kurds) simply don’t have. But we do! Our Tseghakronutiun serves as an extremely sound and solid fundament upon which we can build further and then stand on it and aim right at heart of our enemy to destroy him today in order not to be destroyed by them and their lackeys tomorrow.

[Armanen]

Re: Armenia and Byzantium

The role of Islam in modern Turkish ruling elite is absolutely minimal. In the past Islam was allowed to play a role in their ambitions but it has always acted basically as a shop front to the real Turkish religion, which for a lack of a strong intellectual fundament was not as strongly cemented in their psyche as it is now. But at the end of the 19th century their religion finally found its “bible” and from then on the majority of the Turkish ruling elite and their entire military command together with some of the most influential people in Turkey and abroad in their Diasporas are shaped and driven only by one thing, a powerful and genuinely Turkish ideology known as Ülkücü (Idealist), which is based on writings of 19th century Turkish nationalist Ziya Gokalp who combined the elements of the ancient Turkish religion, which Turks brought with them from Altay and have always practiced, with ultra nationalist ideas. Gokalp’s works were followed by a number of other Turkish nationalist intellectuals/writers who advanced his ideas even further and created what we have today: A nationalist Turkey with ultra nationalist ruling elite.

So, number one: let’s stop associating so much the religion of Islam with the Turks, and most importantly, number two: let’s recognize our enemy for what he really is. This enemy can only be defeated by at least an equally strong nationalist ideology, something that for example their current, active adversaries (the Kurds) simply don’t have. But we do! Our Tseghakronutiun serves as an extremely sound and solid fundament upon which we can build further and then stand on it and aim right at heart of our enemy to destroy him today in order not to be destroyed by them and their lackeys tomorrow.

Throw in the donmeh sect of judaism and international bankers, and our picture of why things transpired the way they did becomes even more clear.

[Armenian]

Re: Armenia and Byzantium

I just pointed this out because i think that it looked very negative.But that's maybe because i'm Greek
Let's be clear i'm not here to make troubles or so...

As far as I'm concerned you are welcome here. I look at Greeks as a brotherly people. However, I do have complaints about Greeks, just as I have complaints about Armenians. As long as Greeks value their relationship with us Armenians, I value theirs.

Armenians did part of the Byzentium Empire and give it his Greatest Glory.Armenians are the reason why the Empire lived hat long. Also it is good to say that the politic views of The City are not always the same then his habitants.

Thank you my friend. I appreciate your honesty and civility. Incidentally, some Greeks insinuate that it was Armenians that more-or-less destroyed Byzantium. Apparently, these types of anti-Armenian rhetoric amongst Greeks come from Byzantine sources, both secular and religious.

I never said they succeded in protecting it. Also Hovhannès Sembat gave Ani to Byzantium after his dead and it was not respected.Gagik II was put on the trone. What blackmail are yoy talking about ? Could you clarify this point , thank you.

When after a decades long agenda the Armenian Bagratid Kingdom was annexed by Byzantium in 1045 AD, the Byzantine leadership, fearing the potential of the Armenian military, disbanded the region's fifty thousand man army, considered to be one of the finest in the region. Couple of decades later in 1064 AD, when the Seljuks arrived at the gates of Ani (the Bagratid capitol), the Byzantine military garrison based there fled, abandoning the Armenian inhabitants. This was the opening of the first major gate into the Armenian Highlands. This was also the first death blow to Byzantium. Thereafter, city after city in Asia Minor would fall to the Turkic invasions.

When you get a chance get your hands on Armenian sources regarding this topic. In the 11th century Byzantium would stop at nothings to make sure that the Armenian Highlands were depopulated of its native inhabitants. They attempted several military incursions but were defeated by Armenian forces. Realizing they could not defeat us militarily, they began resorting to blackmail, and political pressure. They pressured and blackmailed Armenian nobility to accept land offers far away from the Armenian Highlands. They murdered Armenian leaders, they bribed Armenian leaders. They also encouraged Seljuk incursions into Armenia. Just read the history.

I do , i readed Louis Bréhier's work to be more precised.

Good. I have already noticed that you have an open mind regarding such matters.

I will say that it is a good thing for modern Greece because religion prevent us to be westernized even if it is happing thanks to the religion it is happining slowly.

Well, this is a two sided coin. The way I see it, the Greek Orthodox Church's aggressive, dogmatic and tyrannical attitude helped facilitate the destruction of the Byzantine Empire. However, thereafter, the Geek Church helped preserve Greek identity. Personally, had the Empire not collapsed the way it did, there would not have been a need to "preserve Greek identity" in a newly formed "Turkish" land.

Well then we have here another good exemple of good Greek-Armenian relations. When he defeated Phocas to take his crown back the people of Constantipolilis were with him and celebrated him.

Without doubt. I get very-very angry every time I think about what could have been had Armenians and Greeks cooperated in the middle ages. No Greek Genocide, no Armenian Genocide, no Ottoman Empire, no Turkey... Asia Minor would still be the center of civilization today, instead of the Turkic/Islamic cesspool that it is today.

About Basil II i think he was the best one because he had a falling Empire in his hands and defeated in my eyes the Empire's strongest ennemie , the Bulgarians.

Withouts doubt, Basil II is perhaps one of the greatest leaders in world history, not just Byzantium. But I have a soft spot for Heraclius' Christian zeal, political foresight and military prowess.