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Armenia and Dagestan

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  • #51
    Re: Armenia and Dagestan

    No not at all, I just don't want our conversation to get into flaming and getting both of us angry. Other then that I am always open to a conversation even if I don't agree with some one or someone doesn't agree with me.

    Armenians used to have a huge territory where almost every state had their own customs, traditions, variations of dances or songs. That's a lot of culture... Our culture and history was destroyed, but we manage to survive and keep/recover small pieces of it. Eventually we don't know everything about culture we had, as people were genocided, culture and history destroyed.

    Other people in Caucasus do have beautiful culture and dances, but they themselves know very little of what it used to be. After all Soviets were destroying it trying to make them all look the same. I don't think Sovients destroyed Armenian and Georgian cultures and history as much. We even kept our beautiful alphabets, while others got converted to Cyrillic.

    I don't know about Georgians, as they had more chances, but N. Caucasians were very isolated in the mountains and never got deep into astronomy, mathematics, arts and sciences. People can correct me if I am wrong, but I think Armenians succeeded the most on the list above.

    They also converted into Islam recently (couple of centuries I think). Don't know about Chechens, but some Dagestanie tribes used to be Christian, Ingushs used to be Christians. Don't know about Adyg tribes (Kabardins, Cherkess, Adyghas).

    Also, people of N. Caucasus went through a lot to survive too and many didn't make it. For example Adygs used to consist of 12 tribes. Each speaking their own dialect. Only three exist today as nations (listed above). There was several more Wainakh tribes and all I can think of today are Chechens and Ingushs. Caucasian Albania alone had too many tribes for me to remember. I can think of only 5 nations that call themselves Dagestanies today where Kumiks are a unnative Turkic people (I think Avars are Turkic too, but I am not sure).

    Are we the most ancient? It seems that our ages are traced to the same time, but most nations definably took a lot of time to go through a lot of reforms to be formed as nations. Perhaps that's why History refers to us, Armenians, a lot, while I almost never seen anyone refer to, let's say, Wainakh historical archives...

    I can also say that we used to have a lot more incommon in our cultures with the neighbors in the North than today. For example dances. When Turks and Persians came they didn't allow Armenians to wear weapons, while weapons were a must to wear with a national custom. They also tried to ban war-like dances and change them. That's how people started to clap on to each other hands in Yarkhushta instead of doing it with daggers. Warrior customs were forbidden or modified (Chokha for example, but at least this one still appears here an there). The sad part of it is that Armenians and history remembers it, but we still do it like we were forced to......

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    • #52
      Re: Armenia and Dagestan

      As of now a Kabardin master in Kabardino-Balkaria is hand making a traditional Caucasian Armenian style dagger for me. Maybe once I get it I'll read the book to find out more on it.

      Comment


      • #53
        Re: Armenia and Dagestan

        Originally posted by ervand View Post
        No not at all, I just don't want our conversation to get into flaming and getting both of us angry. Other then that I am always open to a conversation even if I don't agree with some one or someone doesn't agree with me.

        Armenians used to have a huge territory where almost every state had their own customs, traditions, variations of dances or songs. That's a lot of culture... Our culture and history was destroyed, but we manage to survive and keep/recover small pieces of it. Eventually we don't know everything about culture we had, as people were genocided, culture and history destroyed.

        Other people in Caucasus do have beautiful culture and dances, but they themselves know very little of what it used to be. After all Soviets were destroying it trying to make them all look the same. I don't think Sovients destroyed Armenian and Georgian cultures and history as much. We even kept our beautiful alphabets, while others got converted to Cyrillic.

        I don't know about Georgians, as they had more chances, but N. Caucasians were very isolated in the mountains and never got deep into astronomy, mathematics, arts and sciences. People can correct me if I am wrong, but I think Armenians succeeded the most on the list above.

        They also converted into Islam recently (couple of centuries I think). Don't know about Chechens, but some Dagestanie tribes used to be Christian, Ingushs used to be Christians. Don't know about Adyg tribes (Kabardins, Cherkess, Adyghas).

        Also, people of N. Caucasus went through a lot to survive too and many didn't make it. For example Adygs used to consist of 12 tribes. Each speaking their own dialect. Only three exist today as nations (listed above). There was several more Wainakh tribes and all I can think of today are Chechens and Ingushs. Caucasian Albania alone had too many tribes for me to remember. I can think of only 5 nations that call themselves Dagestanies today where Kumiks are a unnative Turkic people (I think Avars are Turkic too, but I am not sure).

        Are we the most ancient? It seems that our ages are traced to the same time, but most nations definably took a lot of time to go through a lot of reforms to be formed as nations. Perhaps that's why History refers to us, Armenians, a lot, while I almost never seen anyone refer to, let's say, Wainakh historical archives...

        I can also say that we used to have a lot more incommon in our cultures with the neighbors in the North than today. For example dances. When Turks and Persians came they didn't allow Armenians to wear weapons, while weapons were a must to wear with a national custom. They also tried to ban war-like dances and change them. That's how people started to clap on to each other hands in Yarkhushta instead of doing it with daggers. Warrior customs were forbidden or modified (Chokha for example, but at least this one still appears here an there). The sad part of it is that Armenians and history remembers it, but we still do it like we were forced to......
        The problem is that our kingdoms never reached in Northern Caucasus we stayed to the south and tried to expanded to the south. Even Tigran didn't went there he had vratsi vassal but that's as as it goes. The mountains back then were very hard to access and even harder to travel between the mountains. So that's why I don't believe in this.
        You should never argue with idiots because they will just drag you down to their level....then beat you with experience!!!!!!!

        "I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" Voltaire

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        • #54
          Re: Armenia and Dagestan

          Originally posted by ervand View Post
          For example that Armenians, Georgians, Chechens, some Dagestanie tribes and several other Caucasian people used to be one nation that later separated. Sorry if you don't like it, but that's what Armenian, as well as Georgian historians say. Who do I believe if not them?

          Urartu was never fully Armenian you like it or not. Urartu is a union of several big nations, with many different tribes united. They even spoke different languages. What makes you so sure that, let's say, wainakh people were not one of the people of Urartu if they/Armenian/Georgian historians say they were?

          My source? Yes, I have the source. No, I most likely can't give it to you =). Reason is I've been reading on history and saving lots of links to have sources, but I got lost with so many of them. If you really want it, I can try digging for them. If not then take my word for it, or don't take it...
          LOL Ervand, you seem a very nice guy, I like you, but your source must be your aunt- the best known Antropologist and historian in your village
          Last edited by Mukuch; 08-11-2009, 08:28 AM.
          Death or Freedom!

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          • #55
            Re: Armenia and Dagestan

            Originally posted by Mukuch View Post
            LOL Ervand, you seem a very nice guy, I like you, but your source must be your aunt- the best known Antropologist and historian in your village

            Comment


            • #56
              Re: Armenia and Dagestan

              Originally posted by hrai View Post
              I read somewhere that chechens (!) claim descent directly from Noah and that Nakhichevan is from chechen language.

              People without culture, history or morals will try to steal and hi-jack a culture, a history from others.
              Personally I dont believe that Nakhichevan is related to Chechen language. Its not so easy to find similarities in different languages. Also Noah beliefs should be national myths popped up after christianization of Nakh Taips by Byzantines.

              But anyway your claims that Chechens are "People without culture, history or morals" are so impolite and inferior. Did you ever read about Chechens? What do you know about history, culture, traditions or morals of these people? You should apologize...

              If we come to issue about similarities between Nakh-Daghestan people and Hurrians. I dont say Urartu because it really was a confederative state as ervand told before. There was many nations as Arameans, Hurrians, Hettis since Argish II. We cannot say that Nakh-Daghestani peoples are direct descendant from Hurrians but its approved fact they are close relatives.

              Some of facts are over 176 at present common word-roots basic vocabulary. Close social structure. Similarities in Architectural style and pagan religion. But the most important evidence is the unique ergativity thats missing in any Indo-European language.

              Does this means Armenians have no relationship to Urartu? I dont know not specialising on Indo-European languages. But I can say there ware Indo-Europeans in Urartu state.. that had much more ancient history than Urartu State. They are Hettis. Dont confuse with Hattis. Both of them were living in Hittite state. An interesting information: there was Haysa-Azzi state in Hittite land 700 years before Urartu founded.

              Work on it..
              Sincerely, Nakh
              Last edited by Nakh; 11-03-2009, 04:30 AM.

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              • #57
                Re: Armenia and Dagestan

                I was reading the Wikipedia article on Dagestan and one of the (sourced) claims in the introduction is that the Soviet government promoted Azerbaijani as the "lingua franca" of Dagestan. I'm aware that the southern region has an Azerbaijani minority, but why would they promote that particular language over, say, Avar or even Russian?

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                • #58
                  Re: Armenia and Dagestan

                  Speaking of which, it seems some of our Dagestani or Chechen friends have recently established a Russian language forum for Armenians interested in converting to Islam.

                  Anyone interested?

                  Comment


                  • #59
                    Re: Armenia and Dagestan

                    Originally posted by TomServo View Post
                    Speaking of which, it seems some of our Dagestani or Chechen friends have recently established a Russian language forum for Armenians interested in converting to Islam.

                    Anyone interested?

                    It appears almost all entries are from a single person.

                    I think the confidence about achieving his project come from the fact that he had one too many of Armenian Brandy.
                    Politics is not about the pursuit of morality nor what's right or wrong
                    Its about self interest at personal and national level often at odds with the above.
                    Great politicians pursue the National interest and small politicians personal interests

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                    • #60
                      Re: Armenia and Dagestan

                      No need for it. Many armenians who call themselves chrystians pretty much practice islam and call it chrystianity.

                      Originally posted by TomServo View Post
                      Speaking of which, it seems some of our Dagestani or Chechen friends have recently established a Russian language forum for Armenians interested in converting to Islam.

                      Anyone interested?
                      Hayastan or Bust.

                      Comment

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