Why couldn't Armenians....

[ara87]

Re: Why couldn't Armenians....

I think Armenians could never build a lasting empire b/c we were just always, and still are, outnumbered. I mean until today, i don't think there's ever been more than 5 million Armenians, add to that poor geographic location and it's pretty much set for failure

[Anonymouse]

Re: Why couldn't Armenians....

When Armanen responded in his natural way to you by refering to Turks as sheeple of turgay, I reflected on the fact that there have been complaints about this kind of insult being sustained in the forum regardless of its rules and regulations. That is what I based my action on. If the turks here take these insults a bit less seriously as a whole, perhaps I'll consider it "teasing" from now on.

Again, we will not ban Turks if they abide by the rules. We can keep to our politics, but incessant bashing of eachother is not tolerated, nor is banning anyone just because of their inherent mentality against Armenians in the political domain. Palavra has every right to respond with a statement implying "Dream on" to Armenian's logical discussion of why giving lands to Armenia instead of losing them to a Kurdish state is in Turkey's interests. This is perfectly legitimate. You can tease eachother for that, but I did not like it when it started watering down this thread's quality in terms of good, insightful posts and useful counterarguments.

I'm particularly happy to see what some of us Armenians have contributed in response to the questions asked, though this is something we're used to doing time after time. If you feel bored of this, again, we can work on compiling an archive for referring Turks to whenever they ask their questions.

This is pretty much the consensus.

This will not be a forum where us Armenians will be agreeing with each other all the time. Unless there are rash violation of rules we are not blindly banning Turks. This forum is still open to non-Armenians even though it is catered to Armenian interests. We have to have this dialogue and uncomfortable exchange of ideas. If you guys don't like this, then don't post here. I'm tired of this crap constantly resurfacing. The next step is a major banning session of everyone and I don't care if this place becomes a phucking desert wasteland, Turk or Armenian.

Btw, this thread is begging closure.

[skhara]

Re: Why couldn't Armenians....

I think Armenians could never build a lasting empire b/c we were just always, and still are, outnumbered. I mean until today, i don't think there's ever been more than 5 million Armenians, add to that poor geographic location and it's pretty much set for failure

When population grows naturally, there would be over 5 million. Armenian princess all wanted to rule over their own castles. It's the failure to unite under a single sovereignty that hurt us terribly throughout history.

[jgk3]

Re: Why couldn't Armenians....

At this point we'd better learn from our mistakes once and for all. There are too many examples of our failures to unite and stand for Armenia to ignore.

Ara, land changes hands, its the nature of land. Populations change too, whether through tragedy or prosperity. What doesn't change is the underlying ethos and soul of Armenia, unless it is forgotten for good. So long as it is alive in the people, we will naturally stand and fight for our nation. We will naturally have interest in our civilization and all that it has created. We will want to continue it out of love for it, and if land is required for some of its aspects, we will seek to attain it and build on it.

What's important is to first and foremost feel this and contribute what you can to Armenia and Armenians, not to look at demographic charts and run away at the sight of hopeless statistics. That is a mentality of the masses who's sole existence is based upon this idea of finding a place to live. Obviously a human is endowed with more creativity than that in finding a purpose in life.

It is obvious that one cannot build an empire, let alone keep the RA from being overrun, if cowardliness is the mentality of its people.

[Federate]

Re: Why couldn't Armenians....

When population grows naturally, there would be over 5 million. Armenian princess all wanted to rule over their own castles. It's the failure to unite under a single sovereignty that hurt us terribly throughout history.

It's this disunity that has ironically enabled us to survive. We've been surrounded and have been a stepping stone on the feet of countless huge empires. Every time some large empire came at our doorsteps, Armenian nobility would divide itself into two: one camp would be pro-invading empire and one camp would be pro-Armenian. Win-win situation. For example, when the Persians and the Byzantines both wanted to conquer us, we divided ourselves into three, one holding the fort, one being pro-Byzantine and one being pro-Persian. There was no way to to wiped out of the map this way. One would topple and the other one would survive. Sure it cost us independence many times and prevented us from being an empire but we're still here today and many, many other nations are not. This tactic is an effective way to survive. Of course, geopolitics have changed since then and things are a little different now.

As for our population, does anyone really believe we're only 8 million? We've been here for 2500+ years... so many Armenian children must have popped up over the years and I believe a large percentage of Turks and Kurds are actually Armenians who over the years were Muslimized, genocided, kidnapped etc. There's no way we're this few.

[jgk3]

Re: Why couldn't Armenians....

It's this disunity that has ironically enabled us to survive. We've been surrounded and have been a stepping stone on the feet of countless huge empires. Every time some large empire came at our doorsteps, Armenian nobility would divide itself into two: one camp would be pro-invading empire and one camp would be pro-Armenian. Win-win situation. For example, when the Persians and the Byzantines both wanted to conquer us, we divided ourselves into three, one holding the fort, one being pro-Byzantine and one being pro-Persian. There was no way to to wiped out of the map this way. One would topple and the other one would survive. Sure it cost us independence many times and prevented us from being an empire but we're still here today and many, many other nations are not. This tactic is an effective way to survive. Of course, geopolitics have changed since then and things are a little different now.

As for our population, does anyone really believe we're only 8 million? We've been here for 2500+ years... so many Armenian children must have popped up over the years and I believe a large percentage of Turks and Kurds are actually Armenians who over the years were Muslimized, genocided, kidnapped etc. There's no way we're this few.

It's true that what our nobility did in Byzantine times for example actually enabled us to survive even though we were being overrun by Greeks and Persians, but I think things changed under the Ottoman yoke. Our people became more interested in integrating themselves to the Ottoman system through climbing up the ranks as bankers and merchants but were not interested in cultivating any kind of movement that wanted to create a state for Armenians.

Forgetting how to fight, Armenians ended up at the mercy of Turks, who at some point during the end of the Ottoman empire's line, chose to secure a victory by robbing Armenians of the wealth and livelihood we attained under their system. Armenians got screwed in this instance because of their political disunity and lack of organization, though the seeds were sown for Tseghakron and Dashnaktsutyan for those of us who wanted to defend our sense of nation from then on.

[Armenian]

Re: Why couldn't Armenians....

It's this disunity that has ironically enabled us to survive. We've been surrounded and have been a stepping stone on the feet of countless huge empires. Every time some large empire came at our doorsteps, Armenian nobility would divide itself into two: one camp would be pro-invading empire and one camp would be pro-Armenian. Win-win situation. For example, when the Persians and the Byzantines both wanted to conquer us, we divided ourselves into three, one holding the fort, one being pro-Byzantine and one being pro-Persian. There was no way to to wiped out of the map this way. One would topple and the other one would survive. Sure it cost us independence many times and prevented us from being an empire but we're still here today and many, many other nations are not. This tactic is an effective way to survive. Of course, geopolitics have changed since then and things are a little different now.

You have just expressed great wisdom, Federate. I fully, completely and totally agree with you! Although our lack of political unity has not allowed us Armenians to become a powerful empire, it has nevertheless allowed us to survive in times of great geopolitical upheaval. Our political "disunity" is a very painful yet one of the essential factors in our survival as a people.

However, this approach/realization is has to be considered very cautiously. Understanding the historical benefits of our political disunity does not mean we must promote disunity in the present day. Sadly, disunity amongst any group of people come naturally, we need not promote it. Maintaining a balance between unity and disunity is as difficult as it is delicate. As much as Armenian nationalists/patriots may oppose it, the Armenian nation, as a whole, must allow political dissent and alternative viewpoints. As such, Armenia needs a pro-Armenia (nationalist) contingent, pro-West contingent, pro-Russian contingent, a pro-Persian contingent, a Turkish friendly contingent... So on. However, for the sake of meeting the complex geopolitical requirements for the foreseeable future in the Caucasus, the pro-Russian and pro-Armenia contingents in Armenia must be in power. There is no other way about it...

In a real sense, Armenia has been located in one of the world's most dangerous and busy intersections. Literally and figuratively speaking, Armenia has been under constant bombardment from east, west, south and north. Under such dire/complex conditions, how can a nation maintain a delicate political balance, how can a nation compose itself and grow? As you can see, this is a very complex/perilous condition for a small nation like Armenia to be in, and one of the main reasons why we have been unsuccessful in building a large and powerful nation.

As for our population, does anyone really believe we're only 8 million? We've been here for 2500+ years... so many Armenian children must have popped up over the years and I believe a large percentage of Turks and Kurds are actually Armenians who over the years were Muslimized, genocided, kidnapped etc. There's no way we're this few.

In a sense, from Europe to Persia, from Russia to the Middle East, individuals of Armenian 'decent' who do not know they are Armenians most probably number in the many tens of millions worldwide... Individuals that can readily trace their Armenian heritage number perhaps around ten million... But 'real' Armenians probably number in the hundreds of thousands... At most.

[jgk3]

Re: Why couldn't Armenians....

As such, Armenia needs a pro-Armenia (nationalist) contingent, pro-West contingent, pro-Russian contingent, a pro-Persian contingent, a Turkish friendly contingent... So on.

I actually agree with this very much. Just as an individual needs to be open to the different aspects of their environment which is always in transition, so does an organic society. Nations are no exceptions to this rule.

If you stick to one set of interests and ignore all others, you close your windows and become isolated and as a result, weaker and smaller. You also lose a degree of integrity, as you are becoming overly paranoid or obsessive in order to cling onto an imbalanced agenda or set of beliefs.

[Armenian]

Re: Why couldn't Armenians....

I actually agree with this very much. Just as an individual needs to be open to the different aspects of their environment which is always in transition, so does an organic society. Nations are no exceptions to this rule. If you stick to one set of interests and ignore all others, you close your windows and become isolated and as a result, weaker and smaller. You also lose a degree of integrity, as you are becoming overly paranoid or obsessive in order to cling onto an imbalanced agenda or set of beliefs.

Yes, that's good and all but if we don't have a powerful establishment in Armenia today that is pro-Russian and pro-Armenian, we will lose everything because unlike other more isolated nations, Armenia is located in a nasty intersection that does not allow room for even small mistakes. Like I said, juggling between many different political influences while maintaining 'one' is a very complex thing to do for a nation like Armenia.

[jgk3]

Re: Why couldn't Armenians....

Yes, that's good and all but if we don't have a powerful establishment in Armenia today that is pro-Russian and pro-Armenian, we will lose everything because unlike other more isolated nations, Armenia is located in a nasty intersection that does not allow room for even small mistakes. Like I said, juggling between many different political influences while maintaining 'one' is a very complex thing to do for a nation like Armenia.

Yes, I realize that. A pro-Armenia nucleus was lacking during the Ottoman times obviously as well, we don't want to go back to those days.