Aryan Roots Save Armenians from Nazi Extermination

[ArmSurvival]

Re: Aryan Roots Save Armenians from Nazi Extermination

Wow, I know this is a late reply, but I was caught up with school and now with work for the past month or so. Anyways....

The Araratian Federation which was known as "Urartu/Biainili" was comprised of various nations living around lake Van that eventually fused/evolved to become what we today know as Armenians/Hays

I know that Urartu was in essence a federation of tribes/nations centered around Ararat, but the fact that you mentioned that there were "various nations living around Lake Van", already concedes that there was no single, unified Armenian people at that time, meaning that Urartians weren't Armenians, but a combination of the various nations of the area. Like you said,they fused/evolved and became what we now call Armenians. This evolution even happened during the era of Urartu, as many of the late kings of Urartu were in fact Armenians.

The language spoken by official Urartu is said to have been late Hurrian, and suspected of being a dying language at the time. However, the population of Urartu is speculated to have spoken early Armenian, one that incorporated heavy Urartian/Hurrian influences into its Indo-European/Aryan structure.

If that were true, not only would Armenian need to have some Urartian words/roots (which is the case), but the Urartian language would also have to have some Armenian influences, but to my knowledge there is no study which shows this.

Just get the notion of "Armens" somehow marching into Anatolia from the Balkans and taking over the former lands of Urartu out of your head. That story is a myth, no such thing happened. The Indo-European/Aryan language spoken by some proto-Armenian nations was indigenous to the region in question, it did not come from elsewhere

I didn't mention the Armens, but since you did, no one knows for sure, people only have theories, which is why there is no point to argue. Even if a tribe called Armens did migrate to east Anatolia, they were a minority which eventually assimilated into the regional culture(s). Although when groups migrate, historically, they usually adopt the local culture and the locals adopt the language of the conquerers (in order to better adapt to their new conditions). This theory of Armen migration is popular because it would make the connection of Armenian and Greek languages coming from one source in the Balkans, but as I said, they are just theories, I do not commit myself to them....

[melikianAvak]

Re: Aryan Roots Save Armenians from Nazi Extermination

Wow, I know this is a late reply, but I was caught up with school and now with work for the past month or so. Anyways....




I know that Urartu was in essence a federation of tribes/nations centered around Ararat, but the fact that you mentioned that there were "various nations living around Lake Van", already concedes that there was no single, unified Armenian people at that time, meaning that Urartians weren't Armenians, but a combination of the various nations of the area. Like you said,they fused/evolved and became what we now call Armenians. This evolution even happened during the era of Urartu, as many of the late kings of Urartu were in fact Armenians.




If that were true, not only would Armenian need to have some Urartian words/roots (which is the case), but the Urartian language would also have to have some Armenian influences, but to my knowledge there is no study which shows this.



I didn't mention the Armens, but since you did, no one knows for sure, people only have theories, which is why there is no point to argue. Even if a tribe called Armens did migrate to east Anatolia, they were a minority which eventually assimilated into the regional culture(s). Although when groups migrate, historically, they usually adopt the local culture and the locals adopt the language of the conquerers (in order to better adapt to their new conditions). This theory of Armen migration is popular because it would make the connection of Armenian and Greek languages coming from one source in the Balkans, but as I said, they are just theories, I do not commit myself to them....

Many places in the world had city states or kingdoms, a few examples are Spain, Greece, Britain, and China. The names the Hayk are called is from mouths of odars, we have been called many things. Today the Hayk people and nations (Armenia) has two countries. Hayk and RMK. When we regain Western Armenia and our other lands, they may or may not be one counrty. Lets hope they all become one and that one is called Hayk. After all we do call ourselves Hay.

* On December 10, 1991, Nagorno-Karabagh held an independence referendum in which 82% of all voters participated, and 99% voted for independence.

* On January 6, 1992, the leaders of Nagorno-Karabagh declared independence as the Republic of Mountainous Karabagh (RMK).

Just some thoughts. Armenians, united we stand, devided we fall.
Lets learn from each other.

Respectfuly

Avak

PS: I think Enker Armenian is correct. I am impressed by his knowledge of history and many other thinks.

[icoN]

Re: Aryan Roots Save Armenians from Nazi Extermination

What a liar you are. The Dashnaks have already signed the treaty giving our lands before the Bolsheviks.

The Treaty of Alexandropol was a peace treaty between the Democratic Republic of Armenia and TBMM ending the Turkish-Armenian War, before declaration of the Republic of Turkey on December 2 1920. Armenian was forced to renounce the Treaty of Sèvres and cede over 50% of her territory to Turkey. The treaty was to be ratified by the government within a month.

http://www.answers.com/topic/treaty-of-alexandropol

Wait!!! I don't understand so this 50% of land we lost in 1920.... We don't legally have claims to it now present day? Can someone please show me a map of the land we should have right now legally?

[KarotheGreat]

Re: Aryan Roots Save Armenians from Nazi Extermination

Wait!!! I don't understand so this 50% of land we lost in 1920.... We don't legally have claims to it now present day? Can someone please show me a map of the land we should have right now legally?

His source is wiki so I don't trust it very much. If he can show a other source than I believe it till then. And I have read somewhere that there is a lawyer around who's saying we can use the treaty of Sèvres to get our lands back

[ArmSurvival]

Re: Aryan Roots Save Armenians from Nazi Extermination

Many places in the world had city states or kingdoms, a few examples are Spain, Greece, Britain, and China. The names the Hayk are called is from mouths of odars, we have been called many things. Today the Hayk people and nations (Armenia) has two countries. Hayk and RMK. When we regain Western Armenia and our other lands, they may or may not be one counrty. Lets hope they all become one and that one is called Hayk. After all we do call ourselves Hay.

* On December 10, 1991, Nagorno-Karabagh held an independence referendum in which 82% of all voters participated, and 99% voted for independence.

* On January 6, 1992, the leaders of Nagorno-Karabagh declared independence as the Republic of Mountainous Karabagh (RMK).

Just some thoughts. Armenians, united we stand, devided we fall.
Lets learn from each other.

Respectfuly

Avak

PS: I think Enker Armenian is correct. I am impressed by his knowledge of history and many other thinks.

No offense, but most of what you said has nothing to do with what I was discussing. You're discussing today's situation (which I was aware of), I'm talking about 7 or 8 centuries before Christ. We're essentially talking about 2 completely different worlds.

Other countries had city-states... well, those city-states, like the ones on the Armenian plateau, were not unified in their early years, and they evolved to become what we now know as Greece, Spain, China, etc. That was my whole point from the get-go.

[Armenian]

Re: Aryan Roots Save Armenians from Nazi Extermination

No offense, but most of what you said has nothing to do with what I was discussing...

No offense, but most of what you said has nothing to do with what I was discussing either.

No one here was discussing the 'degree' of national 'unity' of ancient Armenians. You are basically nitpicking for no apparent reason. Armenians, as a unified national identity, emerged during the Urartian period. Prior to that period Armenians, per say, were essentially proto-Armenians. And there was no tribe called "Armens" that 'migrated' into the Anatolian highlands, that is pure western derived fantasy. Urartians most probably spoke a version of Hurrian. Hurrian were natives of the region who spoke a Caucasian tongue and Hurrians are one of the two major branches of the Armenian nation, the other being Aryan.

The name "Hai" is linguistically connected to the name "Khaldi" and Khaldi was the supreme God of the Hurrrians - and interestingly enough of the Urartians. The term Ar-men, however, is most probably an Indo-European term and its root word "Ar" is linguistically connected with a supreme Aryan God called "Ar" or Ara.

Thus, no matter how one looks at it, the two names of our nation, the two natures of our language, the two environments of our origins, they are all rooted in two primary locations within the Asia Minor - Anatolia and the Caucasus, Aryans and Caucasians.

[Artsakh]

Re: Aryan Roots Save Armenians from Nazi Extermination

Wait!!! I don't understand so this 50% of land we lost in 1920.... We don't legally have claims to it now present day? Can someone please show me a map of the land we should have right now legally?

Following the brilliant military victory against the Turks at Sardarabat, the brilliant dashnak politicians let the Turks dictate the terms of Armenia's independence with the Treaty of Batum in June of 1918. Armenians were left with a territory of 4,500 sq. miles of rock and dirt. Armenia was completely surrounded by a Turkish sea. This map roughtly corresponds to the sad state Armenians were in:
http://www.travel-images.com/az-adr-1920.jpg


later on, Armenians were able to recapture lost territories. here's the map:
http://www.24april1915.com/eng/image...of_Borders.jpg

Do NOT count the treat of sevres territory. We roughly extended our territories to include kars, ardahan, nakhijevan, and zangezure. roughly 70,000 sq km.

the treaty of alexandrople was signed in june of 1920, giving up kars, ardahan, and nakhijevan. the infamous treaty of alexandrople was signed by Alexander Khatisian.

However, this treaty of alexandrople was and IS illegal. Today, armenia has all legal rights to demand back kars and ardahan. Legally, in accordance with today's international law, kars and ardahan are Armenian territory.

that is precisely why when armenia gained its independence from USSR, the first thing turkey did was ask armenia to confirm the treaty. Armenia refused. And armenia refused this under the rule of Levon der petrosyan.

[KarotheGreat]

Re: Aryan Roots Save Armenians from Nazi Extermination

So treaty of sevres is still leagal and we can use this to demand those lands from the turks. at an international court of law we could get those lands back

[Artsakh]

Re: Aryan Roots Save Armenians from Nazi Extermination

So treaty of sevres is still leagal and we can use this to demand those lands from the turks. at an international court of law we could get those lands back

Of course the treaty of sevres is still legal. However, if the Turks can counter our claims by bringing up the treaty of Lausanne, then there is no debate whatsoever with regards to Kars and Ardahan. Legally, kars and ardahan are armenian territory in accordance with international law.

in other words, these territories, and that designated to armenians under the treaty of sevres are in our back pockets. However, the problem is, ONLY A STRONG ARMENIA CAN PURSUE THE ISSUE OF THESE LANDS. By strong Armenia, i mean an armenia where the people have descent jobs, there is a population growth, and Armenia is economically on its feet so Armenians from the whole world can go back and built our homeland. Once we establish a country based on the rule of law in our current republic, everything will fall into place, armenia can take the land claims to international courts.

these lands are already in our back pockets. however, its up to us to fix our current republic so that we can do something about our lost lands.

[Կարմիր Բ]

Re: Aryan Roots Save Armenians from Nazi Extermination

'Legality' has to do on whether you have the power to enforce your demands. Steal a car, you are thief, steal billions, you are a businessman. If Armenia were strong enough, the treaty would be legal.