Aryan Roots Save Armenians from Nazi Extermination

[Kevin_B]

Re: Aryan Roots Save Armenians from Nazi Extermination

I have a blog on the question of Aryans.

Persians and Hollywood
http://oslonor.blogspot.com

You don't like Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. I do... I hope he gets Zundel free very soon!

[Kevin_B]

Re: Aryan Roots Save Armenians from Nazi Extermination

Hitler was a strong leader who made mistakes that led to his downfall.

Take it any way you want.

http://www.bytwerk.com/gpa/hitler2.htm

http://www.adolfthegreat.com/index.html

"Hitler will emerge from the hatred that surrounds him now as one of the most significant figures who ever lived...
He had a mystery about him in the way that he lived and in the manner of his death that will live and grow after him.
He had in him the stuff of which legends are made."

- John F. Kennedy,
President of the
United States of America

[hagopn]

Re: Aryan Roots Save Armenians from Nazi Extermination

Please stop spewing western crap. Armenians have had an Armenian "national" identity for at least several thousand years. Just because the concept of nationalism did not reach the rest of the world until several centuries ago does not concern us Armenians. Again you are foolishly applying a western standard to Armenian issues.

Here is a good article called "Mother Tongue and The Origins of Nationalism" for you to get familiar with: http://www.armenianway.com/aw/Armen_...ish/index.html

And you might also find the "Code of Honor of the Armenian Military" of the 4/5 century AD interesting as well: http://www.armenianway.com/aw/Armen_...ng/Part12.html

Notice how ancient Armenian texts state that Armenian warriors at the time required "selfless loyalty tо their fatherland, the Armenian "world," country and independent kingdom...

Now, does that not sound like nationalism to you? Or will you still claim that nationalism amongst ancient Armenians did not exist because western "historians" claim otherwise.



Yes, and Hurrian is now said to be a Caucasian tongue.



Why are you again quoting a westerner regarding Armenia's Karahunj or Metsamor? Why don't you try quoting Armenians? Here, let me help you:

http://www.armenianow.com/archive/2005/eng/?go=pub&id=536&issue_id=64

http://www.iatp.am/resource/science/parsamyan/new/pars-eng.htm

http://www.tacentral.com/history/metsamor.htm

It all has to do with intellect, pride and intent. If you have a healthy intellect, pride in your ancient heritage and you intend to educating yourself then there are allot of Armenian sources you can familiarize yourself with. Learn Armenian and studying Armenian sources. If you can only read English then you can read the sources found in the links I have provided.

This is my Armenian History soulmate! Excellent thinking and logic skills yeghbayr!

[hagopn]

Re: Aryan Roots Save Armenians from Nazi Extermination

Dude, you are just dishing outdated western BS. Armenia, as a nation, was establish at least a couple of thousand years before the date you provided. The name of our nation - "Armenia" or "Hayq" - were not always known as such. Just like there never was a country called "Greece," "Germany" or "Italy" until the 19th century. But were there Greeks, Germans or Italians alive prior to the 19th century? And Sumarians were essentially proto-Armenians. Evidence points to their origins in the Armenian Highlands or the Caucasus. Nevertheless, look into the historiography of the Armenian Highlands and the advanced civilizations it hosted, civilization that predated Egypt and Sumeria by thousands of years - Metsamor, Karahunge, Shenkavit, Agarak, MokhraBlur, Ughtasar, Catal Huyuk, Gobekli Tepe, and many others.

By the way, did you know that Sumerians worshiped a twin peaked mountain to their north called Massu? Or that Sumeria had close economic/cultural relations with a land to their north called Arrata? Or that our language and the Sumerian language share around two hundred words?

According to some Armenian and European scholars within the field in question, the following statements are either accepted as corroborated facts yet to be disproved by other discoveries elsewhere, or very likely speculation and/or theories that yet need to be corroborated through additional research. Thus, based on the evaluation of various scholarly and scientific disciplines, the vicinity of the Armenian Highlands is said to be:

The earliest location where agriculture is said to have been developed and certain staple grains and fruits domesticated.

The earliest location where animal domestication and animal husbandry is said to have been practiced.

The earliest location where wheeled transportation is said to have been implemented.

The earliest location where cyclopic walls and stone constructed dwelling have been unearthed.

The earliest location where town planning is said to have been implemented

The earliest location where metal smelting is said to have taken place.

The earliest location where mankind is said to have developed a keen understanding of movements of the stars and the planets.

The earliest location where gods and goddesses of certain Indo European nation's such as the Celtic, Slavic, Germanic and Greco-Roman have their primordial predecessors.

The location where Babylonian/Sumerian and Hebrew sacred texts indicate that civilization/mankind was first "created" by a supreme God.

The location where Babylonian/Sumerian and Hebrew sacred texts indicate the earth was repopulated after a great flood that devastated the world.

The location where, according to Hebrew sacred scripture, God is said to have changed the languages of mankind, thus, scattering them to the far corners of the world. (Note: In my opinion, this is most probably an ancient metaphor describing the Indo-European language diffusion that occurred within the region at approximately around the same time period as the biblical tale.)

Anyway, here are some information on archaeological sites in Asia Minor that predate Egypt and Sumeria.

Metsamor: http://www.tacentral.com/history/metsamor.htm

Karahunge: http://www.armeniapedia.org/index.php?title=Zorakarer

Göbekli Tepe: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6bekli_Tepe

Çatalhöyük http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%87atalh%C3%B6y%C3%BCk

This website has a lot of resources: http://www.tacentral.com/history.asp#

If interested, check out this blog as well: http://arevordi.blogspot.com/

Also, let me humbly add another important point that you will like and us:

The older tribes which eventually developed into larger national groupings, such as the comparatively younger (to Armenian) Celts, the Germanic groupings and so on, were confederate in their political mindset. They understsood a "higher king among kings" as an expediency for defense upon **"Cato's Call" situations, but retained any possibly amount of local autonomy in governing their territory and resources.

This is something that is still applied in modern republican states such as the US itself, but this decentralized authority concept is losing its grip and yielding to centralized authority, which automatically yields dictatorships.

Armenians, as an older political existence, knew this and avoided central autocracies except as temporary defense required. Same went with Rome and the semi-legendary Cato the Farmer who was appointed dictator only in time of war, and then resumed his duties as a farmer immediately after volutarily resigning his Dictator's post.

Totay such an identification with the Nation at this level is unheard of, except among Armenians. The very Garegin Nzhdeh brought is one prime example of losing the personal identity and assuming the Nation Leader in War Time. Recall that upon governing the Zangezur region in time of desperate war, which he led to victory against all odds, he, much like Cato, immediately resigned his dictator's position and pushed for elections of government.

That there were many "states" within the Armenian Nation, therefore, is not evidence of "lack of nationhood." Just the opposite, it is strong evidence of a primordially developed nationality, which is typically confederate in political character, affording much more local and individual (smaller group) freedom than a centralized Empire or strongly federated "republic" (which is not democracy but an oligarchy in actual practice).

[Parskahay]

Re: Aryan Roots Save Armenians from Nazi Extermination

there are 3 type of aryan in the wold
mehr:its us armenians we get it from living with persians long ago
pars:the persian people and some indians too
germuds:germany
these names are the oldest
the pure one is pars.germuds get mixed with alot of european nations and we armenians are living with persians since many years b.C and till now we get aryan blood from them
and no matter how hard you try to not be raciest aryan race is a little among all others with its culture and history im a parskahay i know their history fully i dont know do you know "hafez" or "ferdousi" they are the culture itself and their unique year count system and etc...
we must be proud to have aryan blood but not as proud as we are ARMENIAN

[Armanen]

Re: Aryan Roots Save Armenians from Nazi Extermination

there are 3 type of aryan in the wold
mehr:its us armenians we get it from living with persians long ago
pars:the persian people and some indians too
germuds:germany
these names are the oldest
the pure one is pars.germuds get mixed with alot of european nations and we armenians are living with persians since many years b.C and till now we get aryan blood from them
and no matter how hard you try to not be raciest aryan race is a little among all others with its culture and history im a parskahay i know their history fully i dont know do you know "hafez" or "ferdousi" they are the culture itself and their unique year count system and etc...
we must be proud to have aryan blood but not as proud as we are ARMENIAN

Bro, you are seriously mistaken. I don't know where you got that info but it is comments like that which causes people to think Aryan and Aryanism is something made up by the nazi's.

First off, Armenia is THE homeland of the Aryans aka Indo-Europeans. Armenians have been a kingdom and people for longer than Persia, and there is not 3 kinds of Aryans. There are several branches and a number of them are closely inter-related.

Check out www.Armenianhighlands.com and learn some stuff

[Parskahay]

Re: Aryan Roots Save Armenians from Nazi Extermination

yes i know all of them they mean all of aryans in word
the ones i told you are only aryans who migrated from iran or still live here and the names are iranian
im not so good at history but i heard persians have a 2500 counted years of kingdom(there is more that couldnt counted)and we were with them.most of us were zartosht(old persian religion) and very friendly relations we had but our changing into christianity and their change to islam stop it and we get so far from each other persians are raciest as well this is a fact they hate turks but they like us for only this reason i may suck at other parts of history but im sure about this

[Pedro Xaramillo]

Re: Aryan Roots Save Armenians from Nazi Extermination

Bro, you are seriously mistaken. I don't know where you got that info but it is comments like that which causes people to think Aryan and Aryanism is something made up by the nazi's.

First off, Armenia is THE homeland of the Aryans aka Indo-Europeans. Armenians have been a kingdom and people for longer than Persia, and there is not 3 kinds of Aryans. There are several branches and a number of them are closely inter-related.

Check out www.Armenianhighlands.com and learn some stuff

Well originally it was a religious caste term, meaning he/she who radiates light from within (Sanskrit and Pakrit sources), Aryan in linguistics and culture actually does not refer to all Indo-Europeans, just Indo-Iranians, Armenians by way of the Hittites and Persia are to an extent Aryan, but have Hurrian/Urartian ancestry and culture too.

The Nazi vision of the blond haired blue eyed Aryan is fictious, the Germans are of most non Indo European stock who learned an Indo European language due to Indo European migrations and intermixing, same reason there are extremely dark Indo Europeans in India.

It has of course nothing to do with race, a Hungarian is white, so is a Finn, yet both are Ural-Altaic, Turks today are Caucasoid yet originally were Mongoloid, hence the Nazi idea of things is ridiculous, the "purest" (and I use this term lightly as there is no such thing as a pure race) are the people of Iran, Afghanistan and Balochistan more likely than not as their phenotype is closest to remains of the oldest Aryans. Armenians can count on this list as Armenians are defined by the term Armenoid which seems to be the dominant phenotype of the northern Near East (I am not an anthropologist with DNA and anthropometry, so I could be incorrect on this one)

[Armanen]

Re: Aryan Roots Save Armenians from Nazi Extermination

Well originally it was a religious caste term, meaning he/she who radiates light from within (Sanskrit and Pakrit sources), Aryan in linguistics and culture actually does not refer to all Indo-Europeans, just Indo-Iranians, Armenians by way of the Hittites and Persia are to an extent Aryan, but have Hurrian/Urartian ancestry and culture too.

The Nazi vision of the blond haired blue eyed Aryan is fictious, the Germans are of most non Indo European stock who learned an Indo European language due to Indo European migrations and intermixing, same reason there are extremely dark Indo Europeans in India.

It has of course nothing to do with race, a Hungarian is white, so is a Finn, yet both are Ural-Altaic, Turks today are Caucasoid yet originally were Mongoloid, hence the Nazi idea of things is ridiculous, the "purest" (and I use this term lightly as there is no such thing as a pure race) are the people of Iran, Afghanistan and Balochistan more likely than not as their phenotype is closest to remains of the oldest Aryans. Armenians can count on this list as Armenians are defined by the term Armenoid which seems to be the dominant phenotype of the northern Near East (I am not an anthropologist with DNA and anthropometry, so I could be incorrect on this one)

Aryan's defination has changed in the western world because of ww2, prior to that it did mean Indo-European. Now adays it is politically incorrect to speak of races, much less call someone Aryan.

No one is contesting that Armenians only have Aryan blood, of course there is Caucasian too (Caucasian in the sense of the tribes from there not the racial term). The Armenian ethnogenesis is a mix of the two. The Germans are a part of the Germanic group which has come to be the second largest Indo-European group, of course the natives of Europe were invaded and assimilated with the invading Indo-Europeans, therefore they too have a mix and their language, culture and religion came to resemble the Proto-Indo-European one. The same happened in India as well. The point remains that the Armenian Highlands were the home of the Proto-Indo-Europeans and of all the IE groups the one that would lead to the Armenians stayed there and did not migrate. One of the theories as to why the migrations happened in the first place is because of overpopulation.

Indo-European is a lingustic group as well as racial, it is a sub race of the Caucasoid race. I'm not sure what you are getting at with the Finnish and Hungarian example, yes both are Caucasoid, and the turks are a mix of Mongoloids and Caucasoids, so what? Most turks now have more IE blood than Mongol/turkic.

And I agree, there is no such thing as a pure race, just some ethnic groups have breed and assimilated with various ethnic groups more than others.

If you have not read Martiros Kavoukjians book "Armenia, Subartu and Sumer" I urge you to. Also check out the site that I recommended above.

[jgk3]

Re: Aryan Roots Save Armenians from Nazi Extermination

If you have not read Martiros Kavoukjians book "Armenia, Subartu and Sumer" I urge you to. Also check out the site that I recommended above.

Kavoukjian affirms that Hurrians were Indo-European. This is false.

I appreciate his work for increasing readership on the story of the land of Arrata and Uruk, and his discussion about Elba and its possible socio-ethnic reality.

Nonetheless, I find he isn't just cutting serious corners in trying to extend Armenian (Indo-European) pre-history as far back as possible using his explanation of Subartu (which he claims to be Indo-European), he is just wrong. Besides, we don't need to be "Indo-European" or even Aryan to extend our consciousness of our pre-history. Honestly, I would rather have a clear understanding of our history during the 3rd millenium BC and not be Aryan, than to reject the legitimacy of the comparative method in linguistics.

If you want to deal with the oldest attested Indo-European language, Luwian (pronounced Luvian) is your best choice. Its a language that was used as the religious language of the Hittites, and it is of the Anatolian group.

One of my aims in linguistics is to eventually learn everything I possibly can about Luwian and Hittite, because the former is key to understanding an indigenously Indo-European religion of earliest possible attestation, and the latter for its sheer wealth of historical archives and diplomatic correspondences with neighbours and rivals, including the Hayasa ( which we like to flatly claim as proto-Armenians even though there isn't a shred of evidence available to do so securely) and the Mitanni which we don't know that much about (Mallory likes to claim that it was ruled by Indo-Aryans because of the names of their gods and the vocabulary they use in one of their texts on chariots and horses, but I want to familiarize myself more with Vedic Sanskrit and Luwian before buying into that claim, as the name for the god Agni (fire) apparently turns up in Luwian, as well as Sanskrit, and was one of the names of the Mitanni royal caste's gods. Perhaps the other gods too have a Luwian cognate...).

In short, I think a lot of research is to be done, and I like to use the Armenianhighlands.com story as a motivation to verify the standard claims, but not necessarily adopt the overly neat assumptions made by our nationalists who can't even read cuneiform texts (the only source of knowing anything at all about the historical and ethnographic situation of that period).

Subartu and the Hurrians have a very vague history, and Kavoukjian is a good book to read for arousing interest in this part of the Middle East during that period, but PLEASE keep in mind that it is also a region that is very,very obscure for us. We are mostly just standing on archaeological fragments, which can be interpreted to say any story we want it to if it isn't backed by any linguistic evidence. These are the warnings I've learned about from my department, and I am wholly convinced that they are seriously worth consideration by all.

So in my pending career, I'm either going to find support for Kavoukjian's claims or shoot them down. For you all, I hope to distill the tenable from the untenable, and make explicit all the claims that are outrageous, for example, the idea that the Greek god (Poseid)on's name comes from the backwards spelling of the Hurro-Urartian Storm-God Tessub/Teispas. If I remember correctly, Kavoukjian believed this take to be true. However, on an etymological analysis of Poseidon, the first thing you discover is that the first element of the word is "pos", from Greek "posis" meaning lord/"master of the house" (husband) in Greek, which is derived from Indo-European "potis", a very pervasive root in its daughter languages which is soundly reconstructed as master or lord and has strong connotations of power. Examples containing it include words like "despot" and "potential". A phonological rule changed the intervocalic t in Potis to the fricative s, creating posis. This rule has operated universally in Greek. Tessub and Teispas on the other hand have an s in that position that is not the result of any phonological rule, but it is original. Besides, there is no evidence for this kind of backwards apellation of Anatolian/Armenian Gods in order to generate Greek equivalents. The only thing we do know as that Poseidon's trident is a motif that was popular amongst the Anatolians, and we know that the Luwians most likely colonized the Greek peninsula before the arrival of the Greeks. Such important ideas however, were probably never even known by Kavoukjian, and thus, any Armenian nationalist trying to discuss Hurrians.