Aryan Roots Save Armenians from Nazi Extermination

[Legionary]

Re: Aryan Roots Save Armenians from Nazi Extermination

read the articles about Armenian heavy cavalry and armenian legions in http://www.armenian-history.com/

[SaroukhSako]

Re: Aryan Roots Save Armenians from Nazi Extermination

do you know "miayn zenkov ga hayots pergoutioun" did to our people,not just our people to the history even it changed many things when armenians became aware of their problem.and the solution was : baykar.and in the second world war we took every opportunity to save our country ad take it back from every foreign power being turk iranian russian georgian and azeri,to form united independent free armenia. the extent that we even called ourselves aryans was just to retake armenian prisoners of the red army from the hands of germany and we did form new armies with them to attack the turks. I am armenian just plain armenian not aryannindo-eublablabla Armenian and proud of it.

[ArmSurvival]

Re: Aryan Roots Save Armenians from Nazi Extermination

No one here was discussing the 'degree' of national 'unity' of ancient Armenians. You are basically nitpicking for no apparent reason. Armenians, as a unified national identity, emerged during the Urartian period. Prior to that period Armenians, per say, were essentially proto-Armenians.

That was exactly my point. The 'degree of national unity' wasn't being discussed, but you mentioned earlier in this thread that Urartians are Armenians, maybe even more Armenian than Armenians living today (your words). I don't like nitpicking, but when you make general statements like that about our history, it prompts me to reply. I thought you were trying to twist around history, but your additional comments have shown me that our views are more or less the same. And yes, the Armenian ethnogenesis was happening during the Urartian period, and before that the tribes were essentially proto-Armenians, and their culture was basically passed down to us. Just as there were related tribes inhabiting different parts of the Armenian Highland in ancient times, in modern times Armenians still have their local "tribes" (Marashtsis, Sassountsis, etc), but they are all Armenian. So even at a basic level we see similarities between today's Armenians and the proto-Armenians which inhabited the Armenian Highland in ancient times.

Btw, you still haven't replied about the point I made about the Urartians not adopting any aspects of the Armenian language (since you claimed Urartian language was related to Armenian).

[Marie]

Re: Aryan Roots Save Armenians from Nazi Extermination

You still have not gotten the essence of my statements regarding Urartu.

The Araratian Federation which was known as "Urartu/Biainili" was comprised of various nations living around lake Van that eventually fused/evolved to become what we today know as Armenians/Hays. The fact remains, there are intimate mythological, linguistic, genetic and folkloric connections between modern Armenian heritage and the ancient culture of Urartu. The language spoken by official Urartu is said to have been late Hurrian, and suspected of being a dying language at the time. However, the population of Urartu is speculated to have spoken early Armenian, one that incorporated heavy Urartian/Hurrian influences into its Indo-European/Aryan structure. As the Hurrian language stopped being used, the language we today know as "Armenian" emerged. Also, the term "Hay" is linguistically connected to the Urartian/Hurrian supreme God called Khaldi.

Thus, the Urartians/Hurrians were in every sense of the word - Hay/Armenian.

Just get the notion of "Armens" somehow marching into Anatolia from the Balkans and taking over the former lands of Urartu out of your head. That story is a myth, no such thing happened. The Indo-European/Aryan language spoken by some proto-Armenian nations was indigenous to the region in question, it did not come from elsewhere.



Just read his works in detail and you will see what I'm saying. Don't forget, you are talking about a man that lived approximately two thousand five hundred years ago. However, in the absence of other contemporary texts Herodotus is the best we got.

its correct the Armenian, with the Iranian, were the first Aryan race who had spread westward (around 5000 years) and brought to western countries their great civilisation and knowledges.. it had been proved by almost every scholar and scientist (from whatever countries) everyone who disagree with that is only getting jealous of this true facts...

[Merv]

Re: Aryan Roots Save Armenians from Nazi Extermination

Let's address some delusions:

1.) Armenian collusion with the Nazis on racial grounds is disgusting. If they simply wanted to state they were Aryans to survive, that is understandable. Germany was an ally of Turkey in both world wars and being declared "Aryan" by the Nazis is no particular honor.

2.) "Aryan" can refer to three things:

1.) The German racial theory of Germanic/Nordics being "the purest" Aryan, with several other Indo-European peoples

2.) the Indo-European peoples of Iran (and North India)

3.) Indo-European ethnic groups, meaning 1.) north Indians, Pakistanis and Bangladeshis; 2.) Indo-European Iranians, Afghans, and Tajiks; 3.) (extinct) Tocharians of western China; 4.) (extinct) Hittites of Anatolia; 5.) Armenians; 6.) Hellenic peoples (modern descendants are Greeks); 7.) Slavic East Slavs, South Slavs, and West Slavs; 8.) Baltic Lithuanians, Latvians, and extinct groups like Prussians; 9.) Teutonic English, Germans, Scandinavians, and Netherlanders; 10.) Latin French, Italians, Spaniards, Portuguese, Vlachs and Romanians.... 11.) Celtic Scots, Irish, Manx, Welsh, Bretons; and 12.) (extinct) ancient Balkan and Italian languages such as Illyrian, Thracian, and Dacian.

4.) Armenian is NOT an Iranian branch language. It was thought to be for a long time due to a lot of Persian/Parthian vocabulary, but it is actually a distinct Indo-European group.

5.) Armenian culture and language and ethnicity is in no way directly descended from the Urartians. Urartians spoke a Hurro-Urartian language family, unrelated to Semitic or Indo-European. Hurro-Urartian is agglutinative and split-ergative (NOTHING to do with Armenian or any other Indo-European language) and is hypothesized to be related to Northeast Caucasian languages such as Chechen and Ingush. Armenians may be the genetic descendants of Urartians by intermarriage, and they may have been influenced by Urartians culturally, but they were definitely distinct groups.

6.) The notion of Armenians being "the oldest people" or some such is pretty ridiculous. Biologically, all peoples are equally old. However, culturally or civilizationally, some are older than others. I don't think the notion that Armenians are the oldest civilization stands up to test, when we consider other ethnic groups such as the Greeks (Mycenean civilization, 1600 B.C.), Georgians, Chinese (2000 B.C.), Egyptians/Copts (3000 B.C.), not to mention extinct peoples like the Sumerians.

7.) The origins of the Indo-Europeans and their spread is up for debate. The major theories are the Armenian hypothesis, the Anatolian hypothesis, where migration would spread through Iran in one direction (to China, Central Asia, and Indai), and up into Europe via the Balkans andor Caucasus. The other major theory is the Kurgan hypothesis of Gimbutas which states that it began in modern eastern Ukraine on the Black Sea. This is currently the dominant theory of IE expansion. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurgan_hypothesis

[Marie]

Re: Aryan Roots Save Armenians from Nazi Extermination

Let's address some delusions:

1.) Armenian collusion with the Nazis on racial grounds is disgusting. If they simply wanted to state they were Aryans to survive, that is understandable. Germany was an ally of Turkey in both world wars and being declared "Aryan" by the Nazis is no particular honor.

2.) "Aryan" can refer to three things:

1.) The German racial theory of Germanic/Nordics being "the purest" Aryan, with several other Indo-European peoples

2.) the Indo-European peoples of Iran (and North India)

3.) Indo-European ethnic groups, meaning 1.) north Indians, Pakistanis and Bangladeshis; 2.) Indo-European Iranians, Afghans, and Tajiks; 3.) (extinct) Tocharians of western China; 4.) (extinct) Hittites of Anatolia; 5.) Armenians; 6.) Hellenic peoples (modern descendants are Greeks); 7.) Slavic East Slavs, South Slavs, and West Slavs; 8.) Baltic Lithuanians, Latvians, and extinct groups like Prussians; 9.) Teutonic English, Germans, Scandinavians, and Netherlanders; 10.) Latin French, Italians, Spaniards, Portuguese, Vlachs and Romanians.... 11.) Celtic Scots, Irish, Manx, Welsh, Bretons; and 12.) (extinct) ancient Balkan and Italian languages such as Illyrian, Thracian, and Dacian.

4.) Armenian is NOT an Iranian branch language. It was thought to be for a long time due to a lot of Persian/Parthian vocabulary, but it is actually a distinct Indo-European group.

5.) Armenian culture and language and ethnicity is in no way directly descended from the Urartians. Urartians spoke a Hurro-Urartian language family, unrelated to Semitic or Indo-European. Hurro-Urartian is agglutinative and split-ergative (NOTHING to do with Armenian or any other Indo-European language) and is hypothesized to be related to Northeast Caucasian languages such as Chechen and Ingush. Armenians may be the genetic descendants of Urartians by intermarriage, and they may have been influenced by Urartians culturally, but they were definitely distinct groups.

6.) The notion of Armenians being "the oldest people" or some such is pretty ridiculous. Biologically, all peoples are equally old. However, culturally or civilizationally, some are older than others. I don't think the notion that Armenians are the oldest civilization stands up to test, when we consider other ethnic groups such as the Greeks (Mycenean civilization, 1600 B.C.), Georgians, Chinese (2000 B.C.), Egyptians/Copts (3000 B.C.), not to mention extinct peoples like the Sumerians.

7.) The origins of the Indo-Europeans and their spread is up for debate. The major theories are the Armenian hypothesis, the Anatolian hypothesis, where migration would spread through Iran in one direction (to China, Central Asia, and Indai), and up into Europe via the Balkans andor Caucasus. The other major theory is the Kurgan hypothesis of Gimbutas which states that it began in modern eastern Ukraine on the Black Sea. This is currently the dominant theory of IE expansion. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurgan_hypothesis

stupid low race gay turk see this and shut up:

http://www.geocities.com/Paris/LeftBank/6507/chronicle120.html

http://media.radiosai.org/Journals/Vol_04/01AUG06/CoverStory_Zora.htm

http://z4.invisionfree.com/Armenian_Diaspora/index.php?showtopic=199

do u need more??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Iranians

http://www.iranchamber.com/people/articles/aryan_people_origins.php

[Merv]

Re: Aryan Roots Save Armenians from Nazi Extermination

stupid low race gay turk see this and shut up:

http://www.geocities.com/Paris/LeftBank/6507/chronicle120.html

http://media.radiosai.org/Journals/Vol_04/01AUG06/CoverStory_Zora.htm

http://z4.invisionfree.com/Armenian_Diaspora/index.php?showtopic=199

do u need more??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Iranians

http://www.iranchamber.com/people/ar...le_origins.php

Hater. I'm not Turkish. I'm Slavic with a bit of French and German.

Do you just call all people who disagree with you Turks and gays?

[karoaper]

Re: Aryan Roots Save Armenians from Nazi Extermination

6.) The notion of Armenians being "the oldest people" or some such is pretty ridiculous. Biologically, all peoples are equally old. However, culturally or civilizationally, some are older than others. I don't think the notion that Armenians are the oldest civilization stands up to test, when we consider other ethnic groups such as the Greeks (Mycenean civilization, 1600 B.C.), Georgians, Chinese (2000 B.C.), Egyptians/Copts (3000 B.C.), not to mention extinct peoples like the Sumerians.

Haha, Georgians. You forgot Alabamans and Mississippians.

I wonder what you'd say to an Armenian who pretended to know more about Slavic history and anthropology than a Slav.

[Merv]

Re: Aryan Roots Save Armenians from Nazi Extermination

Haha, Georgians. You forgot Alabamans and Mississippians.

I wonder what you'd say to an Armenian who pretended to know more about Slavic history and anthropology than a Slav.

No problem. Perhaps I am ignorant of the fact that Georgians are a "new people." Correct me if you wish.

However, Armenian claims of being "the oldest" or "the founder of civilization" or some such are absurd. Armenians have many things to be proud of, not least the age of their culture and the forms it has produced, their primacy as the first Christian state, and their perserverance despite millenia of oppression and persecution. But alleging anything beyond that smells of Albanian claims of being "the oldest in the Balkans, before the Greeks," of producing Napoleon, St. Jerome, Justinian, etc. - sounds great but is factually untrue.

It is well known that the constructers of Western civilization were the Greeks and the xxxs. The Greeks gave us art, music, literature, drama, rhetoric, mathematics, physics, democracy, philosophy, etc. The xxxs gave us monotheism and indirectly Christianity. That's just the way it is.

[karoaper]

Re: Aryan Roots Save Armenians from Nazi Extermination

No problem. Perhaps I am ignorant of the fact that Georgians are a "new people." Correct me if you wish.

However, Armenian claims of being "the oldest" or "the founder of civilization" or some such are absurd. Armenians have many things to be proud of, not least the age of their culture and the forms it has produced, their primacy as the first Christian state, and their perserverance despite millenia of oppression and persecution. But alleging anything beyond that smells of Albanian claims of being "the oldest in the Balkans, before the Greeks," of producing Napoleon, St. Jerome, Justinian, etc. - sounds great but is factually untrue.

It is well known that the constructers of Western civilization were the Greeks and the xxxs. The Greeks gave us art, music, literature, drama, rhetoric, mathematics, physics, democracy, philosophy, etc. The xxxs gave us monotheism and indirectly Christianity. That's just the way it is.

I don't think anyone, sane and serious, would argue that there are older civilizations out there. By the way, I think that comparing the ages of civilizations is tricky because it depends on what you consider to be a civilization. Personally I think Sumerians are the forefathers of all civilizations, which is why Asia Minor and surrounding areas are called the "Cradle of Civilizations". Egypt is also legendary and was a developed civilization in very ancient antiquity. I'd consider Greeks to be quote old as well, although the true classic Greek civilization really arrived during the time Armenia was also an established kingdom: circa 7th c. BC.