Aryan Roots Save Armenians from Nazi Extermination

[Merv]

Re: Aryan Roots Save Armenians from Nazi Extermination

I don't think anyone, sane and serious, would argue that there are older civilizations out there. By the way, I think that comparing the ages of civilizations is tricky because it depends on what you consider to be a civilization. Personally I think Sumerians are the forefathers of all civilizations, which is why Asia Minor and surrounding areas are called the "Cradle of Civilizations". Egypt is also legendary and was a developed civilization in very ancient antiquity. I'd consider Greeks to be quote old as well, although the true classic Greek civilization really arrived during the time Armenia was also an established kingdom: circa 7th c. BC.

Sure. Sumerians were the founders of civilization as a whole. They gave us writing, the wheel, etc. But Greeks and xxxs gave us what we call today Western civilization.

I don't know if you are a aware of this, but Greeks substantially predate the 5th century B.C., when there was the classic Greek civilization. Mycenae and Argos were Greek back in 1600 B.C. They were literate back then, using a Linear B syllabary. The Dorian invasion and the Greek "dark ages" followed, and then centuries later the Greek polis' arrive and we have this explosion of classical civilization. In the mean time, Linear B as the writing system was replaced by a Semitic-derived alphabet from the Phoenicians, who in turn got it from the Sumerians.

By the way, are there any explanations as to why the Armenians did not have a writing system until the 400s? Their proximity to the Sumerians, Akkadians, and other Semitic peoples (I know, Sumerians weren't Semitic) would suggest that there should have been this diffusion of the alphabet, yet it was not until Christianity and Mashtots that a Greek-derived alphabet came. Am I missing something here? Was there a pre-Masthots' alphabet in existence?

[Merv]

Re: Aryan Roots Save Armenians from Nazi Extermination

Do you think there is a possibility that the Georgians and other Caucasian-type linguistic groups are related to the Sumerians? I am saying this only because Sumerian is an agglutinative (and I think split-ergative) language, something that is the case with Urartian-Hurrian and other Georgian/Caucasian languages.

I'm wondering if there was once a wide region of agglutinative-split-ergative languages spoken throughout Mesopotamia, eastern Anatolia, and the Caucasus, which was then displaced by Semitic (Akkadian, Assyrian, etc.) form the south and Indo-European from the East (Persian, Median, etc.) and West (Hittite, Armenian, etc.). The fact that these languages survived in the Caucasus would be explained by the isolation conferred by the mountains and/or the fact that Indo-Europeans had not yet spread to reach the northern reaches of the Caucasus. At this time Iranic Sarmatians and Scythians were in the Ukrainian step and central Asia while Slavs were still in Poland. Just a hypothesis.

[TomServo]

Re: Aryan Roots Save Armenians from Nazi Extermination

By the way, are there any explanations as to why the Armenians did not have a writing system until the 400s? Their proximity to the Sumerians, Akkadians, and other Semitic peoples (I know, Sumerians weren't Semitic) would suggest that there should have been this diffusion of the alphabet, yet it was not until Christianity and Mashtots that a Greek-derived alphabet came. Am I missing something here? Was there a pre-Masthots' alphabet in existence?

They used the Greek alphabet.

[Armenian]

Re: Aryan Roots Save Armenians from Nazi Extermination

They used the Greek alphabet.

Not exclusivly. There were other types of alphabet available at the time. Greek and Assyrian was used primarily for sacred literature and official documents, but that lasted only for a short time. Prior to Greek and Assyrian there have been various other forms of writing.

[Armenian]

Re: Aryan Roots Save Armenians from Nazi Extermination

I don't think anyone, sane and serious, would argue that there are older civilizations out there. By the way, I think that comparing the ages of civilizations is tricky because it depends on what you consider to be a civilization. Personally I think Sumerians are the forefathers of all civilizations, which is why Asia Minor and surrounding areas are called the "Cradle of Civilizations". Egypt is also legendary and was a developed civilization in very ancient antiquity. I'd consider Greeks to be quote old as well, although the true classic Greek civilization really arrived during the time Armenia was also an established kingdom: circa 7th c. BC.

Dude, you are just dishing outdated western BS. Armenia, as a nation, was establish at least a couple of thousand years before the date you provided. The name of our nation - "Armenia" or "Hayq" - were not always known as such. Just like there never was a country called "Greece," "Germany" or "Italy" until the 19th century. But were there Greeks, Germans or Italians alive prior to the 19th century? And Sumarians were essentially proto-Armenians. Evidence points to their origins in the Armenian Highlands or the Caucasus. Nevertheless, look into the historiography of the Armenian Highlands and the advanced civilizations it hosted, civilization that predated Egypt and Sumeria by thousands of years - Metsamor, Karahunge, Shenkavit, Agarak, MokhraBlur, Ughtasar, Catal Huyuk, Gobekli Tepe, and many others.

By the way, did you know that Sumerians worshiped a twin peaked mountain to their north called Massu? Or that Sumeria had close economic/cultural relations with a land to their north called Arrata? Or that our language and the Sumerian language share around two hundred words?

According to some Armenian and European scholars within the field in question, the following statements are either accepted as corroborated facts yet to be disproved by other discoveries elsewhere, or very likely speculation and/or theories that yet need to be corroborated through additional research. Thus, based on the evaluation of various scholarly and scientific disciplines, the vicinity of the Armenian Highlands is said to be:

The earliest location where agriculture is said to have been developed and certain staple grains and fruits domesticated.

The earliest location where animal domestication and animal husbandry is said to have been practiced.

The earliest location where wheeled transportation is said to have been implemented.

The earliest location where cyclopic walls and stone constructed dwelling have been unearthed.

The earliest location where town planning is said to have been implemented

The earliest location where metal smelting is said to have taken place.

The earliest location where mankind is said to have developed a keen understanding of movements of the stars and the planets.

The earliest location where gods and goddesses of certain Indo European nation's such as the Celtic, Slavic, Germanic and Greco-Roman have their primordial predecessors.

The location where Babylonian/Sumerian and Hebrew sacred texts indicate that civilization/mankind was first "created" by a supreme God.

The location where Babylonian/Sumerian and Hebrew sacred texts indicate the earth was repopulated after a great flood that devastated the world.

The location where, according to Hebrew sacred scripture, God is said to have changed the languages of mankind, thus, scattering them to the far corners of the world. (Note: In my opinion, this is most probably an ancient metaphor describing the Indo-European language diffusion that occurred within the region at approximately around the same time period as the biblical tale.)

Anyway, here are some information on archaeological sites in Asia Minor that predate Egypt and Sumeria.

Metsamor: http://www.tacentral.com/history/metsamor.htm

Karahunge: http://www.armeniapedia.org/index.php?title=Zorakarer

Göbekli Tepe: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6bekli_Tepe

Çatalhöyük http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%87atalh%C3%B6y%C3%BCk

This website has a lot of resources: http://www.tacentral.com/history.asp#

If interested, check out this blog as well: http://arevordi.blogspot.com/

[karoaper]

Re: Aryan Roots Save Armenians from Nazi Extermination

Armenian, all those you mentioned are indeed ancient Armenian fits of civilization. That was actually why I said that aging civilizations is tricky because it depends on what you mean as a civilization. Certainly our ancestors who may have not been culturally united and known as Armenians did originate from the Cradle of Civilization and were culturally erect many millennia ago.

Also, just because the pre-Haik nations that lived there did not speak Armenian, or even an Indo-European language (Hurrians), it does not mean that they were not part of today's Armenian stock, or what you called proto-Armenians. For example in many places the language of the dominant tribe becomes the official language of the united kingdom. So, I agree in principle that Armenians of today are made up of the different tribes and nations that existed on the Armenian Plateau since time immemorial, and the Armenian language is simply the language of the dominant tribe.

But still, one could certainly argue that other fully united kingdoms/empires predate the united "Armenian" kingdom of 8 c BC.

[Armenian]

Re: Aryan Roots Save Armenians from Nazi Extermination

Also, just because the pre-Haik nations that lived there did not speak Armenian, or even an Indo-European language (Hitites, Hurrians), it does not mean that they were not part of today's Armenian stock, or what you called proto-Armenians.

True, also consider the fact that our Aryan tongue has a strong 'Caucasian' flavor, that is Hurrian/Urartian. One of the results of this Caucasian flavor is the lose of gender in the Armenian language and a great number of borrowed words that are not of Aryan origin.

So, I agree in principle that Armenians of today are made up of the different tribes and nations that existed on the Armenian Plateau since time immemorial, and the Armenian language is simply the language of the dominant tribe.

Actually, a fusion of the 'two' most dominant, Aryan and Caucasian - Armen/Hayk and Hurrian. And both languages seem to have been native to the region in question.

Note: Many decades ago Urartian and Hurrian were considered to be Asian languages. However, that is now disproven by modern research. Today, most prominent scholars in the field consider Urartian and Hurrian Caucasian tongues.

But still, one could certainly argue that other fully united kingdoms/empires predate the united "Armenian" kingdom of 8 c BC.

Urartu was the first Armenian Empire/Federation. Prior to that it the Armenian Highlands seem to have been loaded with powerful tribes and city states. However, certain elements within our national historiography go back many hundreds of years prior to the Urartu Federation. This part of history is so ancient that it has become pure legend - the legends of Hayk, Torgom, Torq, Ara, etc... Thus, it would be a great disservice to our ancient cultural legacy to neglect that unique aspect of our history.

[Hyam Yes]

Re: Aryan Roots Save Armenians from Nazi Extermination

The Aryan race are people who originated from North India who traveled to europe. Armenians do speak a language similar to aryans, but it could just be an influence in the language. Excavations and study of ancient Armenia show that they originated in anatolia so the idea of armenians being aryan is a theory. It IS possible were aryan, but it is also possible (and most likely) that we are semetic. the other theory is that we are a tribe of isrealites who broke off. another theory is that we are the people who came on the Ark which means that we are of israeli and or israeli-arab descent. at this point we are not sure, but we know one thing. we are for sure western asian (middle eastern) and Armenian, and thats enough for me. By the way, the term aryan gained a new meaning in europe in the 19th century as pure people pertaining of blond hair, blue eyes, white skin. It didnt get any momentum as a term until Hitler came along. im also willing to bet Hitler didnt believe we were aryan and wouldve killed us whether or not our claim of aryan, just preoccupied with xxxs and Allies.

But i got a question, why do persians still call themselves aryan after nazis fall, didnt they come from central asia?

[KarotheGreat]

Re: Aryan Roots Save Armenians from Nazi Extermination

The Aryan race are people who originated from North India who traveled to europe. Armenians do speak a language similar to aryans, but it could just be an influence in the language. Excavations and study of ancient Armenia show that they originated in anatolia so the idea of armenians being aryan is a theory. It IS possible were aryan, but it is also possible (and most likely) that we are semetic. the other theory is that we are a tribe of isrealites who broke off. another theory is that we are the people who came on the Ark which means that we are of israeli and or israeli-arab descent. at this point we are not sure, but we know one thing. we are for sure western asian (middle eastern) and Armenian, and thats enough for me. By the way, the term aryan gained a new meaning in europe in the 19th century as pure people pertaining of blond hair, blue eyes, white skin. It didnt get any momentum as a term until Hitler came along. im also willing to bet Hitler didnt believe we were aryan and wouldve killed us whether or not our claim of aryan, just preoccupied with xxxs and Allies.

But i got a question, why do persians still call themselves aryan after nazis fall, didnt they come from central asia?

Go and learn history and see were the Aryan race comes from, and Aryan also means Iranian. Go and learn something. you are a real good joker lol

[Armanen]

Re: Aryan Roots Save Armenians from Nazi Extermination

Sure. Sumerians were the founders of civilization as a whole. They gave us writing, the wheel, etc. But Greeks and xxxs gave us what we call today Western civilization.

I don't know if you are a aware of this, but Greeks substantially predate the 5th century B.C., when there was the classic Greek civilization. Mycenae and Argos were Greek back in 1600 B.C. They were literate back then, using a Linear B syllabary. The Dorian invasion and the Greek "dark ages" followed, and then centuries later the Greek polis' arrive and we have this explosion of classical civilization. In the mean time, Linear B as the writing system was replaced by a Semitic-derived alphabet from the Phoenicians, who in turn got it from the Sumerians.

By the way, are there any explanations as to why the Armenians did not have a writing system until the 400s? Their proximity to the Sumerians, Akkadians, and other Semitic peoples (I know, Sumerians weren't Semitic) would suggest that there should have been this diffusion of the alphabet, yet it was not until Christianity and Mashtots that a Greek-derived alphabet came. Am I missing something here? Was there a pre-Masthots' alphabet in existence?

These four pics are as good as 4000 words




Armenians have always had an alphabet, the one created by Mastots was ancient knowledge being reinvented.



Armeno-Sumerian word links.



Aryan (Indo-European) Homeland was the Armenian Highlands



Karahunj (Stonehenge) This one in Armenia is atleast 3000 years older than the one in England