Political prisoners in Armenia

[Mukuch]

Re: Political prisoners in Armenia

[url]

Կալաճեանն իր ընկերոջ` Մարտին Բաղդասարյանի հրավերով ամիսներ առաջ գնացել է Մարտինենց տուն սրճելու. երկրի բարքերի մասին զրույց է ծավալվել նրա, ընկերոջ և ընկերոջ որդու` Մասիս Բաղդասարյանի միջև: Զրույցի սկզբում դժգոհել, ապա 1-2 նախադասությամբ իր կարծիքն է հայտնել նաև Կալաճեանը, ում խոսքերն օգտագործելով`զրուցակիցները ցուցմունք են տվել Կալաճեանի դեմ:

Nice....isnt it?

[avetis]

Re: Political prisoners in Armenia

http://ankakh.com/?p=4896

Ավան և Նոր-Նորք համայնքների 1-ին ատյանի դատարանում ընթացող սփյուռքահայ Ավետիս Կալաճեանի գործով դատավարությունը հետաձգվեց 3-րդ անգամ.Կալաճեանը մեղադրվում է պետական, քաղաքական, հասարակական գործչի կյանքին սպառնացող գաղտնի ծրագիր մշակելու մեջ (ՀՀ. Քրեական օրենսգրքի 35 և 305 հոդվածներ):

Կալաճեանն իր ընկերոջ` Մարտին Բաղդասարյանի հրավերով ամիսներ առաջ գնացել է Մարտինենց տուն սրճելու. երկրի բարքերի մասին զրույց է ծավալվել նրա, ընկերոջ և ընկերոջ որդու` Մասիս Բաղդասարյանի միջև: Զրույցի սկզբում դժգոհել, ապա 1-2 նախադասությամբ իր կարծիքն է հայտնել նաև Կալաճեանը, ում խոսքերն օգտագործելով`զրուցակիցները ցուցմունք են տվել Կալաճեանի դեմ:

Նիստը հետաձգվեց մեղադրյալի պաշտպան Արթուր Գրիգորյանի միջնորդությամբ: Մեղադրվող կողմը դատավարության սկզբում պաշտպանին էր ներկայացրել գրավոր ցուցում, որով խնդրել էր թվով 14 վկաների դատակոչել հետագա նիստին:

Պատմաքաղաքագետ Ավետիս Պաշար Կալաճեանը ծնվել է Հալեպում, բարձրագույն կրթությունը ստացել Ֆրանսիայիում` մասնագիտանալով միջազգային հարաբերություններ և քաղաքագիտություն բաժիններում: 2008թ• հրատարակել է «Թուրք–թուրանական ծավալապաշտությունը և 70 նահատակ ազգեր» աշխատությունը, որից 50 օրինակ նվիրել է ՀՀ Պաշտպանության նախարարությանը:

Դատարանի որոշմամբ` գործի հաջորդ քննությունը կլինի հուլիսի 20-ին:

http://martyrs.epage.ru

[Mukuch]

Re: Political prisoners in Armenia

Only mukuch can understand mukuch and everyone else is way too dumb, unpatriotic, career oriented......I bet you have a hell of a social life.

LOL
Speak for yourself: if you are so dumb doesn’t mean everyone else is. I do not know where have you come from to such a conclusion but my social life is not your xxxxen business, tack care of yours and stick to subject.

[Haykakan]

Re: Political prisoners in Armenia

You still do not understand my point and probably never will.... The people whos only goal is carrier and power, the people who have no ideas and no ideals, for who doesn’t matter be communist or njdehakan or whatever, they cannot serve to nation or to any other idea. They always will serve just to themselves. That is actually what is going on now in Armenia and I blame for that people who thinks like you . I understand that that is to complicated for you to understand but well; I have tried....

Only mukuch can understand mukuch and everyone else is way too dumb, unpatriotic, career oriented......I bet you have a hell of a social life.

[Mukuch]

Re: Political prisoners in Armenia

The Soviet Union was gone what should they have done gone crying no they were the men who has that their countries needed them and they took the leadership in their hands that is what leaders have been doing through the ages. And what is the difference the generals were also members of the party weren't they aren't they also hypocrites. There were fedayis who were party members would you call them also hypocrites?

You still do not understand my point and probably never will.... The people whos only goal is carrier and power, the people who have no ideas and no ideals, for who doesn’t matter be communist or njdehakan or whatever, they cannot serve to nation or to any other idea. They always will serve just to themselves. That is actually what is going on now in Armenia and I blame for that people who thinks like you . I understand that that is to complicated for you to understand but well; I have tried....

[Mukuch]

Re: Political prisoners in Armenia

Mukuch you keep implying that Armenia could have defended itself against the turcks if it was not for the soviets and this completly destroys any chance you ever had to make a believable argument. Armenia had no resources was completely outnumbered/outgunned/out everythinged and it was facing not the azeris of today but a huge power on the rise.To assume that if it not for the soviets, Armenia would have survived and prospered is complete ignorence and if the armenian leaders thought about things the way you do then there would not be a armenia today to speak of. It was exactly this kind of thought that lost us erzrum and kars. Just think about what you are saying, if armenia did not play ball with the soviets where was it going to get its weapons and suppies from? They had to come from somewhere, even the mythical yet powerfull army of your wet dreams had to still get weapons from somewhere and they were not going to come for free. You seem either unwilling or unable to make the distinction between how things are or where vs how you think they should have been or be. Yes russia does have its own national interests and they do not always coinside with armenias but to think that somehow armenia would have been better off without the russia/soviet union is simply bs anyway you want to look at it. Your iplication that everyone who was a cummunist was somehow evile is another issue which again is totally wrong and distorted in your mind. Most people in the soviet union had to be party members to advance in their careers and most of them were good people who were doing what was right in that society and taking care of their families. You have a deep rooted hatered to all things soviet including hayastantsis and this hate is based on complete misinformation and utter lies. I don't know who feeds you this misinformation or maybe you want to live in your own world which you see with fedai collored glasses. The bottom line is Armenia back then had no choice just like today it had to and still has to play ball with the big powers especialy russia to survive , it simply cant do it on its own in that part of the world. Evene the strongest most nationalistic groups of men ever created could not win a war without weapons and supplies. We are lucky as hell that russia has interests in that region, otherwise there would not have been a armenian state today. Neither armenia nor georgia would survive if it was not for russia and the caucuses would be overrun by turks with panturkism a reality. Russia is the only thing standing in the way of this and nothing and no one else.

You obviously need to learn to read...knowing how to write is not always enough... I think I have answered to everything her in other posts and to lathy to do it again....

[jgk3]

Re: Political prisoners in Armenia

Eddo jan you are proving my point even further. $3,250,000 was a lot of money back then, Armenia could not have fought off the turcks on its own. Whatever help the west gave russia gave way more even when it was not fighting.

Exactly, after the Russian Army was practically disbanded following the Russian Revolution, Russia still left stockpiles of weapons and provisions that could've lasted over an entire year if we defended Erzerum in early 1918, and highly qualified generals like Nazarbekian to lead the Armenians to victory. But what did we do? We (our Russian Armenians at the time) ran away from battle because wars in Turkey "were not the problem of Russian Armenians, but of Turkish Armenians" (of whom most of the heros were martyred long ago and its population, mostly reduced to refugee status, was perhaps 1/4 at best of the pre-1915 figure).

In terms of material support, Russia gave Armenia a golden chance to crush the beaten down, shaggy clothed and famished Turkish Army of 1918. But we, confusedly ran away, when we outnumbered and outgunned them, and let a measly 4000 Turkish soldiers take Erzerum without a fight, shattering 30 years of the Armenian Revolutionary Movement's dream and legacy of an independant Western Armenia, capable of defending itself and consequently, defending Caucasian Armenia by mere virtue of existing.

Who is to blame for this loss? Foreign powers? Russian Armenians only woke up when the same humiliating loss of Erzerum without a fight, occurred weeks later in exactly the same way with Kars.

[Haykakan]

Re: Political prisoners in Armenia

We didn’t need their money only……………..what we needed was for them not to backstab us. What we needed was to allow General Andranik to take Baku as he was about to do. What we needed was for them to send their Armenian regiment to join their brothers instead of dying fighting Germans when we asked them. What we needed later was for Stalin not to give away our historic lands to please Ataturk. Least they could have done is fulfill their empty promises for us saving their butts with Armenian blood.

Anyway, I know what you are saying also Haykakan and I understand you my friend. We need to worry about today and Russia is a stratigical ally with great influence inside Armenia, no denying of fact there (is this good? I don’t think so)………………..but never would I as an Armenian thrust them or any other country ever again. Work and deal with them? Yes, thrust? No way.

I agree with you about trusting. In the real world you cannot really trust anybody other then yourself to look after your interests. And i am happy that you agree with the fact that we need to be close to russia to survive.The sad truth is armenia has little choice, it may not trust russia 100%, and it shouldnt, but in reality it cannot run its economy or foreighn policy independant of it. This may sound like a bad thing but in this case it is not because the more interests the russians have in Armenia(business, strategic) the more likely their national strategy will be inline with our own.As far as history is concerned, stalin definetly backstabbed us and i think we need to keep an eye on shakasville to in this regard, but saying armenia was going to beat turckey if the russians did't interfere is simply wrong.

[Eddo211]

Re: Political prisoners in Armenia

Eddo jan you are proving my point even further. $3,250,000 was a lot of money back then, Armenia could not have fought off the turcks on its own. Whatever help the west gave russia gave way more even when it was not fighting.

We didn’t need their money only……………..what we needed was for them not to backstab us. What we needed was to allow General Andranik to take Baku as he was about to do. What we needed was for them to send their Armenian regiment to join their brothers instead of dying fighting Germans when we asked them. What we needed later was for Stalin not to give away our historic lands to please Ataturk. Least they could have done is fulfill their empty promises for us saving their butts with Armenian blood.

Anyway, I know what you are saying also Haykakan and I understand you my friend. We need to worry about today and Russia is a stratigical ally with great influence inside Armenia, no denying of fact there (is this good? I don’t think so)………………..but never would I as an Armenian trust them or any other country ever again. Work and deal with them? Yes, trust? No way.

[Haykakan]

Re: Political prisoners in Armenia

Haykakan: Did you know 90 percent of weapons used in Artsakh were taken from the Azeris? You guys need to read this………….the truth in my book.

Why Armenia should be free:
By HAIG HAROUTIUNIAN 1918


...........In 1914 both Turkey and Russia appealed to the Armenians by vari-
ous promises of a future autonomous Armenia to secure their assistance
in their respective military operations. Through their long and bitter
experience the Armenians knew very well that the imperialistic govern-
ments of both Turkey and of Russia were opposed to their national as-
pirations and therefore those promises had no value whatever. But,
realizing the universal significance of the present war, and considering
the fact that justice was on the side of the Entente, the Armenians, in
spite of their distrust of the Russian government, from the very begin-
ning, unreservedly bound themselves to the allied cause.

This decision of the Armenians cost them the sacrifice of more than
1,000,000 men in Turkish Armenia, and complete devastation of their
native land even in the first year of the war.

In spite of this terrible blow, the Armenians did not lose their vigor,
and, even though the autocratic Russian government, up to the time of
the Revolution, created all sorts of obstacles to impede their activities,
they still continued their assistance to the allied cause. In bringing about
the failure of the three Turkish offensives in 1914 and 1915 the Arme-
nians gave the allied cause important armed assistance, on both sides of
the Turco-Russian frontier.

After the Russian Revolution, when, the Russian military forces fled
from the Caucasian front and left it unprotected from January, 1918,
to the middle of the following September, the Armenians were the only
people who resisted and delayed the Turco-German advance toward
Baku. Moreover, the Armenians accomplished all this with their own
forces, all alone, surrounded on all sides by hostile elements, without
any means of communication with their great Allies of the West. As an
evidence of this we may mention the fact that during the last eight



CONCLUSION 43

months and a half the Armenians have received from the Allies only
6,500,000 rubles ($3,250,000) of financial assistance, and the 2,800
British soldiers who were too few and arrived too late to save Baku.

Let us now look at the other side of the picture.

Had the Armenians assumed an entirely opposite attitude from what
they actually did ; in other words, had they bound their fate in 1914 to
the Turco-German cause, just as the Bulgarians did in 1915, what would
have been the trend of events in the Near East ? Here is a question to
which, it is quite possible, our great Allies have had no time to give any
consideration. But that very question was put before the Armenians
in 1914, and with no light heart did they answer it by their decision to
join the Allies. Each and every one of them had a clear presentiment of
the terrible responsibility they assumed. Those millions of corpses of
Armenian women and children which spotted the plains in the summer
of 1915, rose like phantoms before our very eyes in the August of 1914
when we decided to resist the wild Turkish revengefulness and its
frightful outcome. Now, in October, 1918, when we are so close to
the hour of the final victory, and feel quite safe and certain that the
heavy and gloomy days of the summer of 1914 will never return, I
shall permit myself to picture in a few words, before I finish, that which
would have taken place if the Armenians had sided with the Germano-
Turks in the Near East from the beginning of the war.

First of all, those frightful Armenian massacres would not have taken
place. On the contrary, the Turks and the Germans would have tried
to win the sympathy of the Armenians in every possible way until the
end of the war.

On the other hand, so long as the Georgians and Tartars of the
Caucasian peoples were only too eager to co-operate with the Germano-
Turks, as the events of 1918 fully demonstrate, had the Armenians like-
wise joined them in 1914, by cutting the railroads, the backbone of the
Caucasian Russian army, all the Caucasian country would have slipped
out of the hands of the Russians in a few weeks, and the Turco-Ger-
mans would have reached Baku in the autumn of the same year. The
Armenians, Georgians, and Tartars of the Caucasus, united, would have
been able to form with the greatest ease an army of 700,000 men, by
which they would have been able to defend the Caucasian mountain-
ridge against the Russians. Meanwhile, the entire Turkish army wonM



44 WHY ARMENIA SHOULD BE FREE

have been available to advance immediately toward the interior of Asia
and join the 18,000,000 Moslems of Asiatic Russia. We may safely say,
neither Persia nor Afghanistan could have remained neutral on seeing
such successful achievements by the Turks.

In the course of such events Russia would have been compelled to
remove the greater portion of her forces to the East and would not
have been able to protect her Western frontiers as successfully as she
did. Therefore, quite probably, the Russian collapse would have taken
place in the summer of 1915, when the Germans occupied Russian
Poland. On the other hand, Great Britain would have been obliged to
appropriate the greater portion of her newly-formed land forces for
the protection of India, and would have been unable to rush as great a
force to the defence of heroic France as she actually did. Quite likely,
under these conditions, neither Italy nor Roumania would have aban-
doned her neutrality, and thus the war might have ended in 1915 or
1916 with the victory of the central Powers, at least on land.

It was as clear as day to the Armenians that a Germane-Turkish vic-
tory could never satisfy their national aspirations. The most that those
nations would have done for us would have been to grant nominal rights
to the Armenia of their own choice. But it was very plain to us also
that we should not have suffered such frightful human losses had we not
sided with the Allies. We consciously chose this last alternative,
namely : we tied our fate to the allied victory ; we exposed our very exist-
ence to danger in order to realize the complete fulfillment of our na-
tional ambition, that is, to see the re-establishment of the United His-
toric Independent Armenia.

With our modest means, we have fulfilled our duty in full measure in
this great struggle in order to save civilization from an impending
doom. Now it is for our great Allies to act.

The day is not very far distant when, gathered around the great
tribunal of justice, the representatives of 2 11 the nations of the
globe guilty or just are to receive their punishment or reward from
the hands of the four distinguished champions of democracy, President
Wilson, Premiers Lloyd George, Georges Clemenceau, and Orlando. If the
representatives present themselves in the order of seniority, the first in
the rank will be the representative of the Armenian people the aged
lother Armenia. Behold! Into the Peace Congress Hall there enters



CONCLUSION 45

an old woman, bathed in blood, clothed in rags, her face covered with
wrinkles 3,000 years old, and completely exhausted. With her thought-
ful eyes the venerable Mother Armenia will survey the countenances of
all those present, and thus will she address the great figures of the
world :

"Century after century my sons took part in all the strifes waged to
safeguard justice and the freedom of suffering humanity. Three thou-
sand years ago my sons struggled for seven hundred years against the
despotism of Babylon and Nineveh, which eventually collapsed under the
load of their own crimes. Fifteen centuries ago the Armenians resisted
for five hundred years the persecutions of the mighty Persian Empire
to preserve their Christian faith. Since the eighth century my sons
have been the vanguard of Christian civilization in the East against
Moslem invasions threatening for a while the very existence of all
Europe. If you doubt my statements, ask the sacred mountain of
Ararat; he will relate to you how all the nations and empires, which
attempted to possess by criminal means the indisputable inheritance of
my sons, have received their just punishment.

"Let us not go very far. Here, before you, stand the representatives
of those three nations which tried to destroy my sons before your very
eyes, in order to rule those parts of our ancestral lands, so sanctified
by blood, known as Armenia. Look at this Turk ; it was he who wished
to wipe the very name of Armenia off the face of the map; but today,
foiled in his attempt, he stands there like a criminal awaiting his sen-
tence. And where is today the Czar of Russia, who planned to occupy
Armenia without the Armenians, the representative of that Empire
before which the world trembled. And what has remained of the policies
of the German Empire, in whose hands is the Bagdad railroad now,
built at the cost of the blood of hundreds of thousands of Armenian
women and children? Thus, those three modern malevolent empires,
which tried to attain happiness through the blood of my sons, have re-
ceived their just punishment.

"Such will be the fate in the future of all those who shall attempt
similar crimes against Armenia. This is the message, gentlemen,
handed down to us through three thousand years of history.

"I have nothing more to add. I await your verdict with confidence/'

http://www.archive.org/stream/whyarm...duoft_djvu.txt

Eddo jan you are proving my point even further. $3,250,000 was a lot of money back then, Armenia could not have fought off the turcks on its own. Whatever help the west gave russia gave way more even when it was not fighting.