Political prisoners in Armenia

[KarotheGreat]

Re: Political prisoners in Armenia

LOL
Of course Putin is a hypocrite, he was not just a party member he was a KGB general... LOL what can be a better characteristic for a hypocrite?
I do not care where serjik was studying, he was just another party functionary careerist, and I would prefer him to be a communist than nothing -what actually he is. Well I do not care about modern Armenian generals...I do not think any of them know how to read properly.. .
And I know enough about Armenian generals during WWII, they were talented as many armenians are but that has nothing to do with the subject. One thing is to be a general and other thing is to be a leader of nationalist party and head of the state

The Soviet Union was gone what should they have done gone crying no they were the men who has that their countries needed them and they took the leadership in their hands that is what leaders have been doing through the ages. And what is the difference the generals were also members of the party weren't they aren't they also hypocrites. There were fedayis who were party members would you call them also hypocrites?

[Eddo211]

Re: Political prisoners in Armenia

Haykakan: Did you know 90 percent of weapons used in Artsakh were taken from the Azeris? You guys need to read this………….the truth in my book.

Why Armenia should be free:
By HAIG HAROUTIUNIAN 1918


...........In 1914 both Turkey and Russia appealed to the Armenians by vari-
ous promises of a future autonomous Armenia to secure their assistance
in their respective military operations. Through their long and bitter
experience the Armenians knew very well that the imperialistic govern-
ments of both Turkey and of Russia were opposed to their national as-
pirations and therefore those promises had no value whatever. But,
realizing the universal significance of the present war, and considering
the fact that justice was on the side of the Entente, the Armenians, in
spite of their distrust of the Russian government, from the very begin-
ning, unreservedly bound themselves to the allied cause.

This decision of the Armenians cost them the sacrifice of more than
1,000,000 men in Turkish Armenia, and complete devastation of their
native land even in the first year of the war.

In spite of this terrible blow, the Armenians did not lose their vigor,
and, even though the autocratic Russian government, up to the time of
the Revolution, created all sorts of obstacles to impede their activities,
they still continued their assistance to the allied cause. In bringing about
the failure of the three Turkish offensives in 1914 and 1915 the Arme-
nians gave the allied cause important armed assistance, on both sides of
the Turco-Russian frontier.

After the Russian Revolution, when, the Russian military forces fled
from the Caucasian front and left it unprotected from January, 1918,
to the middle of the following September, the Armenians were the only
people who resisted and delayed the Turco-German advance toward
Baku. Moreover, the Armenians accomplished all this with their own
forces, all alone, surrounded on all sides by hostile elements, without
any means of communication with their great Allies of the West. As an
evidence of this we may mention the fact that during the last eight



CONCLUSION 43

months and a half the Armenians have received from the Allies only
6,500,000 rubles ($3,250,000) of financial assistance, and the 2,800
British soldiers who were too few and arrived too late to save Baku.

Let us now look at the other side of the picture.

Had the Armenians assumed an entirely opposite attitude from what
they actually did ; in other words, had they bound their fate in 1914 to
the Turco-German cause, just as the Bulgarians did in 1915, what would
have been the trend of events in the Near East ? Here is a question to
which, it is quite possible, our great Allies have had no time to give any
consideration. But that very question was put before the Armenians
in 1914, and with no light heart did they answer it by their decision to
join the Allies. Each and every one of them had a clear presentiment of
the terrible responsibility they assumed. Those millions of corpses of
Armenian women and children which spotted the plains in the summer
of 1915, rose like phantoms before our very eyes in the August of 1914
when we decided to resist the wild Turkish revengefulness and its
frightful outcome. Now, in October, 1918, when we are so close to
the hour of the final victory, and feel quite safe and certain that the
heavy and gloomy days of the summer of 1914 will never return, I
shall permit myself to picture in a few words, before I finish, that which
would have taken place if the Armenians had sided with the Germano-
Turks in the Near East from the beginning of the war.

First of all, those frightful Armenian massacres would not have taken
place. On the contrary, the Turks and the Germans would have tried
to win the sympathy of the Armenians in every possible way until the
end of the war.

On the other hand, so long as the Georgians and Tartars of the
Caucasian peoples were only too eager to co-operate with the Germano-
Turks, as the events of 1918 fully demonstrate, had the Armenians like-
wise joined them in 1914, by cutting the railroads, the backbone of the
Caucasian Russian army, all the Caucasian country would have slipped
out of the hands of the Russians in a few weeks, and the Turco-Ger-
mans would have reached Baku in the autumn of the same year. The
Armenians, Georgians, and Tartars of the Caucasus, united, would have
been able to form with the greatest ease an army of 700,000 men, by
which they would have been able to defend the Caucasian mountain-
ridge against the Russians. Meanwhile, the entire Turkish army wonM



44 WHY ARMENIA SHOULD BE FREE

have been available to advance immediately toward the interior of Asia
and join the 18,000,000 Moslems of Asiatic Russia. We may safely say,
neither Persia nor Afghanistan could have remained neutral on seeing
such successful achievements by the Turks.

In the course of such events Russia would have been compelled to
remove the greater portion of her forces to the East and would not
have been able to protect her Western frontiers as successfully as she
did. Therefore, quite probably, the Russian collapse would have taken
place in the summer of 1915, when the Germans occupied Russian
Poland. On the other hand, Great Britain would have been obliged to
appropriate the greater portion of her newly-formed land forces for
the protection of India, and would have been unable to rush as great a
force to the defence of heroic France as she actually did. Quite likely,
under these conditions, neither Italy nor Roumania would have aban-
doned her neutrality, and thus the war might have ended in 1915 or
1916 with the victory of the central Powers, at least on land.

It was as clear as day to the Armenians that a Germane-Turkish vic-
tory could never satisfy their national aspirations. The most that those
nations would have done for us would have been to grant nominal rights
to the Armenia of their own choice. But it was very plain to us also
that we should not have suffered such frightful human losses had we not
sided with the Allies. We consciously chose this last alternative,
namely : we tied our fate to the allied victory ; we exposed our very exist-
ence to danger in order to realize the complete fulfillment of our na-
tional ambition, that is, to see the re-establishment of the United His-
toric Independent Armenia.

With our modest means, we have fulfilled our duty in full measure in
this great struggle in order to save civilization from an impending
doom. Now it is for our great Allies to act.

The day is not very far distant when, gathered around the great
tribunal of justice, the representatives of 2 11 the nations of the
globe guilty or just are to receive their punishment or reward from
the hands of the four distinguished champions of democracy, President
Wilson, Premiers Lloyd George, Georges Clemenceau, and Orlando. If the
representatives present themselves in the order of seniority, the first in
the rank will be the representative of the Armenian people the aged
lother Armenia. Behold! Into the Peace Congress Hall there enters



CONCLUSION 45

an old woman, bathed in blood, clothed in rags, her face covered with
wrinkles 3,000 years old, and completely exhausted. With her thought-
ful eyes the venerable Mother Armenia will survey the countenances of
all those present, and thus will she address the great figures of the
world :

"Century after century my sons took part in all the strifes waged to
safeguard justice and the freedom of suffering humanity. Three thou-
sand years ago my sons struggled for seven hundred years against the
despotism of Babylon and Nineveh, which eventually collapsed under the
load of their own crimes. Fifteen centuries ago the Armenians resisted
for five hundred years the persecutions of the mighty Persian Empire
to preserve their Christian faith. Since the eighth century my sons
have been the vanguard of Christian civilization in the East against
Moslem invasions threatening for a while the very existence of all
Europe. If you doubt my statements, ask the sacred mountain of
Ararat; he will relate to you how all the nations and empires, which
attempted to possess by criminal means the indisputable inheritance of
my sons, have received their just punishment.

"Let us not go very far. Here, before you, stand the representatives
of those three nations which tried to destroy my sons before your very
eyes, in order to rule those parts of our ancestral lands, so sanctified
by blood, known as Armenia. Look at this Turk ; it was he who wished
to wipe the very name of Armenia off the face of the map; but today,
foiled in his attempt, he stands there like a criminal awaiting his sen-
tence. And where is today the Czar of Russia, who planned to occupy
Armenia without the Armenians, the representative of that Empire
before which the world trembled. And what has remained of the policies
of the German Empire, in whose hands is the Bagdad railroad now,
built at the cost of the blood of hundreds of thousands of Armenian
women and children? Thus, those three modern malevolent empires,
which tried to attain happiness through the blood of my sons, have re-
ceived their just punishment.

"Such will be the fate in the future of all those who shall attempt
similar crimes against Armenia. This is the message, gentlemen,
handed down to us through three thousand years of history.

"I have nothing more to add. I await your verdict with confidence/'

http://www.archive.org/stream/whyarmeniashould00pasduoft/whyarmeniashould00pasduoft_djvu.txt

[Mukuch]

Re: Political prisoners in Armenia

I got a question what does it matter what he did during the Soviet days if we start fiering every one who was a party member we will lose many people. Do you know something about Serj his history and the education he got. I've heard he went to study in Moscow and he's very close with Putin(their are college buddies or something) So he was being prepared to be an important man in the SU and he was doing what he could. And look at our generals and go read a little bit who they were, most of them were also officers during soviet times does it matter what they were during SU, and after the 70's there were not many people believe in the works of Marx and the SU was changing. So this idea that you have that it ws bad that he was an important man during the SU times and he can't be a president or he is a hypocrite because of that. I don't see any hypocrisy, do you have proof that he was a Communist it's not enough that he was a party member. Putin was also a party member will you call him also a hypocrite.

LOL
Of course Putin is a hypocrite, he was not just a party member he was a KGB general... LOL what can be a better characteristic for a hypocrite?
I do not care where serjik was studying, he was just another party functionary careerist, and I would prefer him to be a communist than nothing -what actually he is. Well I do not care about modern Armenian generals...I do not think any of them know how to read properly.. .
And I know enough about Armenian generals during WWII, they were talented as many armenians are but that has nothing to do with the subject. One thing is to be a general and other thing is to be a leader of nationalist party and head of the state

[Haykakan]

Re: Political prisoners in Armenia

Mukuch you keep implying that Armenia could have defended itself against the turcks if it was not for the soviets and this completly destroys any chance you ever had to make a believable argument. Armenia had no resources was completely outnumbered/outgunned/out everythinged and it was facing not the azeris of today but a huge power on the rise.To assume that if it not for the soviets, Armenia would have survived and prospered is complete ignorence and if the armenian leaders thought about things the way you do then there would not be a armenia today to speak of. It was exactly this kind of thought that lost us erzrum and kars. Just think about what you are saying, if armenia did not play ball with the soviets where was it going to get its weapons and suppies from? They had to come from somewhere, even the mythical yet powerfull army of your wet dreams had to still get weapons from somewhere and they were not going to come for free. You seem either unwilling or unable to make the distinction between how things are or where vs how you think they should have been or be. Yes russia does have its own national interests and they do not always coinside with armenias but to think that somehow armenia would have been better off without the russia/soviet union is simply bs anyway you want to look at it. Your iplication that everyone who was a cummunist was somehow evile is another issue which again is totally wrong and distorted in your mind. Most people in the soviet union had to be party members to advance in their careers and most of them were good people who were doing what was right in that society and taking care of their families. You have a deep rooted hatered to all things soviet including hayastantsis and this hate is based on complete misinformation and utter lies. I don't know who feeds you this misinformation or maybe you want to live in your own world which you see with fedai collored glasses. The bottom line is Armenia back then had no choice just like today it had to and still has to play ball with the big powers especialy russia to survive , it simply cant do it on its own in that part of the world. Evene the strongest most nationalistic groups of men ever created could not win a war without weapons and supplies. We are lucky as hell that russia has interests in that region, otherwise there would not have been a armenian state today. Neither armenia nor georgia would survive if it was not for russia and the caucuses would be overrun by turks with panturkism a reality. Russia is the only thing standing in the way of this and nothing and no one else.

[KarotheGreat]

Re: Political prisoners in Armenia

Which part of what I wrote has anything to do with American propaganda? In contrary that decadent position of yours is a direct inspiration of soviet propaganda.




Let me disagree with you. I know much more about SU than you think and probably than you know yourself

I went to college (University) even 2 of them in SU, and I wasn’t a party member. And no one who studied with me was a party member. Other thing that everyone had to be komsomol but I have been excluded from komsomol but managed to stay in university. And do not confuse being a regular Komsomol with PARTY FUNCTIONARIES. This people had no principles and yes they didn’t believe in anything and that is the worst part. They were just careerist hypocrites and serjik and robik and co. were some of them. And I think you are not very strong in the math. There were about 70.000 party members in Sovet Armenia with population of 3.000.000 dosent look like 99%. And that is bullxxxx that fidayis were communist. LOL. that one I know better than you.
You are right just in one thing Russians never give a xxxx about Karabakh and still do not give a xxxx. So how much you kiss their arss it doesn’t matter.

I got a question what does it matter what he did during the Soviet days if we start fiering every one who was a party member we will lose many people. Do you know something about Serj his history and the education he got. I've heard he went to study in Moscow and he's very close with Putin(their are college buddies or something) So he was being prepared to be an important man in the SU and he was doing what he could. And look at our generals and go read a little bit who they were, most of them were also officers during soviet times does it matter what they were during SU, and after the 70's there were not many people believe in the works of Marx and the SU was changing. So this idea that you have that it ws bad that he was an important man during the SU times and he can't be a president or he is a hypocrite because of that. I don't see any hypocrisy, do you have proof that he was a Communist it's not enough that he was a party member. Putin was also a party member will you call him also a hypocrite.

[Mukuch]

Re: Political prisoners in Armenia

And you should think outside American propaganda and look at the things who they were.

Which part of what I wrote has anything to do with American propaganda? In contrary that decadent position of yours is a direct inspiration of soviet propaganda.

I think you don't know how the SU worked when you went to college you became automatically a party member almost 99.9% of the people of the Su were party members. If you wanted to work or travel you had to be a party member. All of the Fedayis were party members every one in Armenia born before 1980 was a party member. And 90% of them didn't believe in Communism. Like today in China every one is a member of the party. And nobody is forgetting anything but some people don't see things in perspective the only thing the SU cared about was about Su they didn't give a xxxx about the whole thing in Artsakh it was our struggle of course they were going to fight us what did you expect that they would have done something different. They were trying to preserve a dyeing Su.

Let me disagree with you. I know much more about SU than you think and probably than you know yourself

I went to college (University) even 2 of them in SU, and I wasn’t a party member. And no one who studied with me was a party member. Other thing that everyone had to be komsomol but I have been excluded from komsomol but managed to stay in university. And do not confuse being a regular Komsomol with PARTY FUNCTIONARIES. This people had no principles and yes they didn’t believe in anything and that is the worst part. They were just careerist hypocrites and serjik and robik and co. were some of them. And I think you are not very strong in the math. There were about 70.000 party members in Sovet Armenia with population of 3.000.000 dosent look like 99%. And that is bullxxxx that fidayis were communist. LOL. that one I know better than you.
You are right just in one thing Russians never give a xxxx about Karabakh and still do not give a xxxx. So how much you kiss their arss it doesn’t matter.

[KarotheGreat]

Re: Political prisoners in Armenia

Well nether Russia nor turkey was in better conditions in that period of time and both countries have stood up on their feet and have developed (each in its way). And well if the Bolsheviks not invaded Armenia maybe Armenia would get a chans to develop as an INDEPENDENT country. And turks wouldn’t be back soon for sure they had other priorities, don’t forget that after eliminating Armenians, Armenia become one of the last issues for turks by its important.But this all just wild guesses, there is no way that Bolsheviks would let that happen.

Lets say the Bolsheviks didn't invade the Caucasus. Armenia is surrounded by enemies at every side this time. It's not like in the 90's every one is now our enemy you got the azeris, georgians, Iranians and Turks and even if we had won against the Turks their is a chance great chance the war would not have ended by that. And Turkey had just defeated the Allies and Greece and was coming for us. Turkey at that time was a rising Nationalistic state and
I'm not even sure we would have survived what they would have done too us. Armenia hadn't the resources to fight any war there was no trade and surrounded by hostile states filled with refugees that is the state we were in. And the SU was the lesser of the two evils coming our way.

Armenia had to fight on 2 fronts : Russian Bolsheviks and turks. The Alexandropol treaty was direct result of that. Kemal was getting arms from Russians. Now think yourself.

And you should think outside American propaganda and look at the things who they were. After initial success the Turks were winning and were as far as Gyumri occupying a lot of Armenian land, the only thing different would have been that our people would have fought much longer and after that conquered by the enemy because they lacked the manpower, infrastructure and resources their enemy had.

First for getting good education you did not have to be a party functionary.
I am talking about people who was becoming communist just to make a cariere. If one can become a communist for becoming a komsomol leader in his village, the same way he can become a Njdehakan for getting much higher positions. That is called hypocrisy and not having any ideological principles.Try to understand that. The same applies to the people who have thrown out their party member IDs when sow that the sheep is going down (reminds me rats).
And the officers who wan Karabakh war were first of all Armenians and Karabakhi Armenians like the ones who wan the World War II for russians. And you wouldn’t talk how "Great" soviet military was if you would be highding in Karabakhs forests from russian soldiers during "Koltso" operation. I do not know why everyone forgot about that one.

I think you don't know how the SU worked when you went to college you became automatically a party member almost 99.9% of the people of the Su were party members. If you wanted to work or travel you had to be a party member. All of the Fedayis were party members every one in Armenia born before 1980 was a party member. And 90% of them didn't believe in Communism. Like today in China every one is a member of the party. And nobody is forgetting anything but some people don't see things in perspective the only thing the SU cared about was about Su they didn't give a xxxx about the whole thing in Artsakh it was our struggle of course they were going to fight us what did you expect that they would have done something different. They were trying to preserve a dyeing Su.

[Mukuch]

Re: Political prisoners in Armenia

With what were they going to build the city, the first Armenian republic was a little more than a failed state. The people there were starving, a million refugees. And how many years till the Turk would have been back.

Well nether Russia nor turkey was in better conditions in that period of time and both countries have stood up on their feet and have developed (each in its way). And well if the Bolsheviks not invaded Armenia maybe Armenia would get a chans to develop as an INDEPENDENT country. And turks wouldn’t be back soon for sure they had other priorities, don’t forget that after eliminating Armenians, Armenia become one of the last issues for turks by its important.But this all just wild guesses, there is no way that Bolsheviks would let that happen.

Have you heard of a little thing called the treaty of Alexandropol. Armenia had lost the war and the Turks could invade any moment they wanted so please tell me again the Soviet was the evil you are telling.

Armenia had to fight on 2 fronts : Russian Bolsheviks and turks. The Alexandropol treaty was direct result of that. Kemal was getting arms from Russians. Now think yourself.

And from the first group you are talking abaut, how many got a good education? How many went to a uni? And when did those live at the end of the 80's than most people knew that the end was coming and breaking away from the party. And go and check how was a member of the Karabakh comity in the 80's. And guess who were the first ones to support the miatsum the soviet leadership of Armenia.
And do you think the Artsakh war could have been won without the officers and generals who had been part of the soviet military?

First for getting good education you did not have to be a party functionary.
I am talking about people who was becoming communist just to make a cariere. If one can become a communist for becoming a komsomol leader in his village, the same way he can become a Njdehakan for getting much higher positions. That is called hypocrisy and not having any ideological principles.Try to understand that. The same applies to the people who have thrown out their party member IDs when sow that the sheep is going down (reminds me rats).
And the officers who wan Karabakh war were first of all Armenians and Karabakhi Armenians like the ones who wan the World War II for russians. And you wouldn’t talk how "Great" soviet military was if you would be highding in Karabakhs forests from russian soldiers during "Koltso" operation. I do not know why everyone forgot about that one.

[Haykakan]

Re: Political prisoners in Armenia

That was punishment for Armenia sending troops to Iraq.



There lies the difference between us. You trust Russia and you hate the US. I on the hand have no hate for Russia but would never trust any of them.

I refuse to live a life a slave…………..I expect my Nation to hold those values Freedom as well.

Today Armenia is in a situation that can make some real changes if it could find a way to take advantage of the desperate situations that these two Superpowers find themselves locked in.

I

I am not as optimistic. I think the current situation of being loclked in a powerstruggle between great powers is a dangerous one for us and the possible risks far outweight any possible reward.The government of armenia is not powerfull it has to do what it is told by the big powers and if it doesn't it will be replaced by another government that will.As much i want armenia to de the master of its own destiny, the situation simply won't allow it.Armenia needs to survive and prosper and it needs to do it under the radar so the big powers wont try to stop it from growing cause if they think it is becoming too powerfull to controll, the minute they think that something bad will happen.I think it is amazing that it has held on to all of kharabagh for this long and managed to atleast somewhat prosper like it has.I understand why the government is hated by many but it does also deserve credit for the good things.It is not fair to blame it for all the bad things and not give it credit for any of the good.

[Eddo211]

Re: Political prisoners in Armenia

The border is still open and Russian goods re arriving in Armenia don't worry about that, and I think the only reason there isn't a real blockade of Georgia is because of Armenia.

That was punishment for Armenia sending troops to Iraq.

..... And you know what got us killed is the way you are acting the people back than also thought they were better of without Russia and they would look to the West for help but did it ever came the help they were looking for?......

There lies the difference between us. You trust Russia and you hate the US. I on the hand have no hate for Russia but would never trust any of them.

I refuse to live a life a slave…………..I expect my Nation to hold those values Freedom as well.

Today Armenia is in a situation that can make some real changes if it could find a way to take advantage of the desperate situations that these two Superpowers find themselves locked in.

I