And the Fraud Had a Name, Azerbaijan: the Real, the Fake and the Absurd

[lampron]

Re: And the Fraud Had a Name, Azerbaijan: the Real, the Fake and the Absurd

Originally Posted by Qudrat Baboonquliyev
15 September 2008 [18:04] - Today.Az
"Azerbaijan should change its name for North Azerbaijan, which corresponds to the reality" (??? According to who? H.),

I hope someone tells Mr Qudrat Baboonquliyev that he can sign up to this forum and start debating!

[bell-the-cat]

Re: And the Fraud Had a Name, Azerbaijan: the Real, the Fake and the Absurd

Kars, Ardahan, Ararat, Igdir, Surmalu were not held by the ottomans when war broke out. They were seized during Kemals' attack on Armenia in 1920. Nakhichevan's 'status' is supposed to be 'guaranteed' by Turkey and Russia. If Turkey played a central role in the creation of the entity called 'Nakhichevan', why is it surprising that Turkey should have an interest in creating a border with it?

Hellektor's thesis is that Azerbaijan is an artificial country, with a name that has no relevance to the geographic area it occupies, and is using primary sources, many of them non-Armenian, to illustrate this point.

"They were seized during Kemals' attack on Armenia in 1920". So you are agreeing with me, and recognising that Hellektor's statement (that the border with Nakhchivan resulted from a 1930s land exchange) is wrong?

Hellektor is a loud-mouthed, foul-mouthed racist - the "thesis" of that individual is worth nothing. Nakhchivan exists because by 1920 the overwhelming majority of its population was not Armenian. No fantasy from Hellektor is going to change that hard fact, or the hard fact of the very real existence of the republic of Azerbaijan.

[SevSpitak]

Re: And the Fraud Had a Name, Azerbaijan: the Real, the Fake and the Absurd

"They were seized during Kemals' attack on Armenia in 1920". So you are agreeing with me, and recognising that Hellektor's statement (that the border with Nakhchivan resulted from a 1930s land exchange) is wrong?

Hellektor is a loud-mouthed, foul-mouthed racist - the "thesis" of that individual is worth nothing. Nakhchivan exists because by 1920 the overwhelming majority of its population was not Armenian. No fantasy from Hellektor is going to change that hard fact, or the hard fact of the very real existence of the republic of Azerbaijan.

I suggest you read this (don't just look at the map, read the text). If you're going to make such bold Azeri-friendly claims so confidently, I suggest you educate yourself first. The population of Nakhichevan was bout 60-70% Muslim, while the rest was Armenian.

Your compatriot, Hellektor, may be foul mouthed, but that's no reason to ignore his book or his arguments. He almost uses his foul mouth in a satirical way. He makes very good points, and I can defend most of his stance very well.

[Yedtarts]

Re: And the Fraud Had a Name, Azerbaijan: the Real, the Fake and the Absurd

Your compatriot, Hellektor, may be foul mouthed, but that's no reason to ignore his book or his arguments. He almost uses his foul mouth in a satirical way. He makes very good points, and I can defend most of his stance very well.

I second that!

[bell-the-cat]

Re: And the Fraud Had a Name, Azerbaijan: the Real, the Fake and the Absurd

I suggest you read this (don't just look at the map, read the text). If you're going to make such bold Azeri-friendly claims so confidently, I suggest you educate yourself first. The population of Nakhichevan was bout 60-70% Muslim, while the rest was Armenian.

Your compatriot, Hellektor, may be foul mouthed, but that's no reason to ignore his book or his arguments. He almost uses his foul mouth in a satirical way. He makes very good points, and I can defend most of his stance very well.

70% IS overwhelmingly not Armenian. Maybe you should educate yourself first in maths, percentages, and statistics. And after that, and most difficult of all for you, educate yourself in reality.

[lampron]

Re: And the Fraud Had a Name, Azerbaijan: the Real, the Fake and the Absurd

Hellektor is a loud-mouthed, foul-mouthed racist - the "thesis" of that individual is worth nothing. Nakhchivan exists because by 1920 the overwhelming majority of its population was not Armenian. No fantasy from Hellektor is going to change that hard fact, or the hard fact of the very real existence of the republic of Azerbaijan.

Yes everyone here agrees that Nakhichevan by 1920 had a non-Armenian majority, but how did that come about? - an important question!

Yes everyone agrees that there is a state called Azerbaijan to the east of Armenia/Karabakh. But even the Tatars recognize that there never was a country called Azerbaijan until 1918. We know that some years later they re-invented themselves as 'Azeris'. All very intriguing stuff! Which is where researchers like Hellektor come in

[Tigranakert]

Re: And the Fraud Had a Name, Azerbaijan: the Real, the Fake and the Absurd

Discussing with bell-the-cat is useless. He is an anti-Armenian racist. The current Republic of Armenia, Artsakh, Nakhichevan and Eastern Turkey are the homeland of the Armenian nation. This is a fact. The reality is that Nakhichevan, Artsakh, and Eastern Turkey are under occupation under the pretext of these fake international treaties, recognized by the criminal and biased organization called the UN.

If I am not mistaken, in the Armenian constitution we see Western-Armenia as a part of our nation.

[SevSpitak]

Re: And the Fraud Had a Name, Azerbaijan: the Real, the Fake and the Absurd

70% IS overwhelmingly not Armenian. Maybe you should educate yourself first in maths, percentages, and statistics. And after that, and most difficult of all for you, educate yourself in reality.

You need to relax a bit, and clear this anti-Armenian cloud from your mind for a moment. You clearly didn't read this.

North of Nakhichevan was populated by Armenians, and ruled, with no interruption until 1923, by Armenia. I'm not talking about the city of Nakhichevan, nor the entirety of the province (which had its Armenian population removed in the 17th/18th century btw), but the parts that undisputedly belonged to Armenia to the North (Sharur and parts of Sadarak), which were taken away from Armenia in order to connect Turkey to Nakhichevan/Azerbaijan. Keep in mind that the entire province was under the control of Armenia at the time when both Armenia and Azerbaijan were taken over by the USSR. Considering a region like NK, which had a 94% Armenian population, could be ceded to Azerbaijan, why is it that a region, historically part of Armenia, and very recently part of the Armenian Oblast, with 30-40% Armenian population, can't be part of Armenia (i.e.: not even the parts that were exclusively Armenian like the North)?

Second, the reality is that 30-40% Armenians makes almost half of the population! The fact that they disappeared from Nakhichevan BEFORE the NKR conflict makes it clear as day what type of policies Azerbaijan pursued (which Hellektor talks about). No Azerbaijani/Tatars were ethnically cleansed from Armenia until the NKR conflict, at a time when even if Armenia tried to be the nicest they possibly could to them, they still would have escaped to Azerbaijan.

[lampron]

Re: And the Fraud Had a Name, Azerbaijan: the Real, the Fake and the Absurd

North of Nakhichevan was populated by Armenians, and ruled, with no interruption until 1923, by Armenia. I'm not talking about the city of Nakhichevan, nor the entirety of the province (which had its Armenian population removed in the 17th/18th century btw), but the parts that undisputedly belonged to Armenia to the North (Sharur and parts of Sadarak), which were taken away from Armenia in order to connect Turkey to Nakhichevan/Azerbaijan. Keep in mind that the entire province was under the control of Armenia at the time when both Armenia and Azerbaijan were taken over by the USSR. Considering a region like NK, which had a 94% Armenian population, could be ceded to Azerbaijan, why is it that a region, historically part of Armenia, and very recently part of the Armenian Oblast, with 30-40% Armenian population, can't be part of Armenia (i.e.: not even the parts that were exclusively Armenian like the North)?

.

you make a good point. Another point: no-one is talking about the rights of the Armenian refugees
who were forced out of Nakhichevan, while we constantly read about the right of return of the Tatar minority to Karabakh

[Federate]

Re: And the Fraud Had a Name, Azerbaijan: the Real, the Fake and the Absurd

Spitak jan, do you have a link that gives out figures for the Armenian population of Sharur and Sadarak or the figures of Armenian population per administrative division in Nakhichevan?