Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

[Federate]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

May I remind everyone that there is no need to resort to name-calling. We can all perfectly state our points without it. Please cooperate, gentlemen.

[Catharsis]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

May I remind everyone that there is no need to resort to name-calling. We can all perfectly state our points without it. Please cooperate, gentlemen.

I agree. I can assure you that I was not the one who instigated that measure.

[ninetoyadome]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

i dont know if this counts:

Petition, possibly written by Suren Ayvazian, signed by over 75,000 Armenians from Mountainous Karabagh and Soviet Armenia, to General Secretary Gorbachev.
August 1987
The First Secretary of the Central Committee
of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union M. S. Gorbachev

Dear Mikhail Sergeyevich:

[...]

Over many centuries its geographic position has made Armenia a garrison for Russia and a most important strategic center. For centuries Armenia has also shed its blood, particularly during Russo-Turkish wars. It was gradually losing the space necessary for its existence, its national core. By occupying Armenian territories, and faithful to its barbarian policy of fait accompli, Turkey in 1915-16 organized the Genocide of the Armenians, which reached monstrous proportions. When creating the Soviet State, V. I. Lenin took into consideration the political situation in which Armenians found themselves. He required the Russian government to use all means available to pressure Turkey to resolve the Armenian Question. He demanded that Western Armenia be attached to Russian Armenia and that the Armenia being created have access to the sea, which was necessary for the free existence of the Armenian people.

Unfortunately, the illness of the leader of the revolution and then his death did not allow him to realize and apply his instructions and demands. Furthermore, under the pressure of imperialist Turkey, the historically Armenian Nakhichevan and Karabagh were annexed to Azerbaijan as autonomous regions and all of this was accomplished despite the fact that on December 7,1920 the [Azerbaijani] revolutionary committee commissariat for foreign affairs published a government decision that stated, "Beginning today Mountainous Karabagh, Zangezur, and Nakhichevan will be part of Soviet Armenia." Because of Turkish pressure, this decision remained on paper. Already at the time, Turkey was developing its illusionary plans for the islamization of Russian territories and had begun the application of the cruel concept of Turkifying Armenian regions. These two regions were thus forced into the Azerbaijani structure. Today there are no more Armenians in Armenian Nakhichevan and Armenian historical monuments there are being destroyed in a most barbarian fashion. Every year the Armenian population of Mountainous Karabagh is decreasing, since impossible conditions have been created for the actual masters of the land. Despite this, the number of Azerbaijanis is increasing, i.e., number of Turks in Karabagh and even in Stepanakert. And in Shushi, the former capital of Karabagh, the Turkish population is reaching 95% of the total population. The contemporary proponents of Turkish Pan-Islamism are stating out loud, "That which was taken away from us by Empress Catherine without firing a shot, the communists are giving back with additional lands. They're not only kicking out Armenian and Russian inhabitants from Nakhichevan and Karabagh, but also, by realizing the plans of NATO member Turkey, they have created a string of Muslim villages which consider themselves Turkish along the Soviet Frontier." When Turkey achieved the incorporation of Nakhichevan in the Azerbaijani Republic, it also bought from Iran a strip of land to achieve common borders with Nakhichevan. Please make the effort and look at the map to see that circle of land. By stepping over the Leninist principles of nationalities policy, by separating historic territories from Soviet Armenia and incorporating them in Soviet Azerbaijan, it is as if someone in the past was working in favor of the interests of the Soviet Union's enemy, Turkey, which is the guardian of imperialism, backwardness and aggression in the south of our country. Now on each side of Soviet Armenia there are Armenian autonomous regions which are the only ones which purposefully are not named by national identity (such as Tatar or Abkhaz), but rather by their geographic names. Does this not constitute an insult to our country's nationalities policy?

The inhabitants of Nakhichevan and Mountainous Karabagh have on many occasions appealed to Moscow asking that based on the Leninist principles the question of the incorporation of Armenian Nakhichevan and Mountainous Karabagh into Armenia be resolved. On many occasions, letters signed by the whole population of the Armenian regions have been sent to the leaders of the Communist Party and the Soviet Union. Ten years ago the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the Soviet Union published letters addressed to Moscow by workers. In that collection one writer says rightly, "Due to events in history, a few decades ago Mountainous Karabagh was artificially annexed to Azerbaijan and in the process, the historic past and national identity of the inhabitants, their economic interests, and the will of the people were not taken in to consideration. Decades passed and the question of Karabagh continues to remain on the agenda and it is causing concern because it is becoming an obstacle to the friendship of two neighboring peoples. It is necessary that Karabagh (Artsakh in Armenian) be joined with Soviet Armenia so that everything will have been done properly." (Note number 61, Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the Soviet Union, November 23, 1977)

Dear Mikhail Sergeyevich, in the name of victory of historic justice, in the name of the realization of Leninist traditions, we are making an ardent appeal to you to reattach Mountainous Karabagh and Nakhichevan to Socialist Armenia.

Signatures.

[Droshak. Athens, October 13-14,1987]

[Eddo211]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

And you are a Turk - so you have never seen a proper map and don't know how to use them. Unless you have a permit from your National Security Ministry, it is illegal for you to use or own 1:100,000 maps or better, same for all contour maps.
I've seen Turks go visibly white at the sight of a map. I've seen them try to read maps turned sideways, or upside down. I've seen them peer over a map for an hour, and still be none the wiser about what it shows. I've seen a supposedly professional driver (a Kurd in this case) go on a 4 hour hour dead-end detour down the wrong road because he was incapable of reading a map, even though the correct route was being repeatedly pointed out to him on that map, and the route he was on was shown as going under the waters of a lake formed by a recently constructed dam!

Damn Bells what do you have against libraries...........poor guy just made a suggestion. Have you been missing out on your catnaps or something?

[londontsi]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

At last the Armenian Foreign Ministry has decided to speak through its deputy FM.

As usual they speak double Dutch.

What does "The current situation is a result of war, not occupation" mean.


1. We ready to give back once the war condition is over

OR

2. There was war and you lost it, ( same as you gambled and lost out?)

http://news.am/en/news/7057.html

Current situation-result of war: Kirakosyan


Turkish leadership statement that Armenian-Turkish border will not open till Karabakh conflict is settled differs from that on the paper, RA Deputy Foreign Minister Arman Kirakosyan told the journalists in Baku. According to him, the Protocols are the outcome of two countries’ accord to settle the relations without preconditions.

Kirakosyan also commented on Protocols’ discussion in Turkish Parliament, underlining that internal procedures are already initiated in Armenia.

RA Deputy Foreign Minister stated that Armenia-Turkey rapprochement and Karabakh conflict settlement are separate processes: “Armenia-Turkey relations are those between the two sovereign states and legally have nothing to do with Karabakh peace process. Thus, if all goes without a hitch after the signing and ratification, the borders will open.”

As for Armenia-Azerbaijan talks, Kirakosyan said that the process is in progress. “The Presidents had seven meetings to date, which is a positive trend. The principles proposed by OSCE Minsk Group Co-Chairs are being discussed. The talks proceed constructively and positively,” Kirakosyan said, adding that in resolution process what matters – is the result. According to him, once the parties reach an agreement on core principles of the settlement, “the talks will proceed to the final stage.”

In response to Azerbaijani journalist’s question about the liberation of “occupied Azerbaijani territories” by Armenia, Kirakosyan said: "The current situation is a result of war, not occupation.

[Army]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

And you are a Turk - so you have never seen a proper map and don't know how to use them. Unless you have a permit from your National Security Ministry, it is illegal for you to use or own 1:100,000 maps or better, same for all contour maps.
I've seen Turks go visibly white at the sight of a map. I've seen them try to read maps turned sideways, or upside down. I've seen them peer over a map for an hour, and still be none the wiser about what it shows. I've seen a supposedly professional driver (a Kurd in this case) go on a 4 hour hour dead-end detour down the wrong road because he was incapable of reading a map, even though the correct route was being repeatedly pointed out to him on that map, and the route he was on was shown as going under the waters of a lake formed by a recently constructed dam!

No this is not the case. Still I am sorry but the maps do not have any value if you (we) do not know who draw it

[ninetoyadome]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

AZERBAIJAN STILL HOPES ON PEACE ESTABLISHMENT IN THE REGION VIA DISINFORMING WORLD COMMUNITY, BUILDING UP ARMAMENTS AND BREAKING CFE

ArmInfo
2009-10-23 14:29:00

Arminfo. "Armenia had built up its military presence, with data
showing a growing number of uncontrolled arms, including 316 tanks,
324 armoured vehicles and 322 artillery systems in the occupied
territories, exceeding its maximum levels", deputy chairman of the
committee, first secretary of Azerbaijani permanent office in UN,
Ogtay Ismayilzade, said such a regular lie today during the debate
at the 17th meeting of the Committee of UN General Assembly on peace,
security and disarmament.

Having traditionally complained about "Armenia's aggression which
had led to the occupation of one-fifth of Azerbaijan's territory,
triggering the internal displacement of 1 million people", this
official was so eager to blame the Armenian people for the war crimes
and genocide. 'Armenia had used the occupied territories to hide great
numbers of unaccounted and uncontrolled treaty- limited equipment
from the "CFE" community, endangering the security of Azerbaijan and
the stable development of the whole region," he said.

"Azerbaijan spent 3.26 per cent of its gross domestic product (GDP)
on the army, compared with Armenia's 3.86 per cent. Despite being in a
state of war, Azerbaijan was continuing to fulfill commitments under
the CFE Treaty, reducing and destroying more than 150 treaty-limited
armaments and equipment over the last five years, in line with the
Tashkent Agreement." - he said. In all probability the respectful
Ogtay-teacher saying about destroying of more than 150 treaty-limited
armaments and equipment, meant modern armament bought recently by
Azerbaijan from Ukraine for several dozens of million dollars. As
the written off military equipment by Ukraine gathering dust at the
stores for dozens of years, may cost not more.

Let us mention the following fact as the best demonstration of
'peaceful' intentions of Azerbaijan which always increases its
technical potential via buying new heavy firepower equipment, in
particular, SU-25 strike-fighters, laser-guided bombs, multiple
artillery rocket systems, etc.

http://groong.usc.edu/news/msg289388.html

[AlphaPapa]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Anyone else notice that the Azeris are referring to the Artsakh war as the 'first karabagh war'? I think their intentions are obvious, and very typical of turkish history.

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

The border between the OTTOMAN Empire (not Turkey) and Imperial RUSSIA (Armenia didn't exist) was always moving back and forth...what the hell are you two arguing about? the existence of a map doesn't mean that the governments recognized it...if it were so, I'd grab a globe and a crayon and go to town on that fukker.

This has nothing to do with maps - it is to do with a lie.

The piece of Armenian propaganda that started this discussion was a false claim that in the 1930s Turkey had taken land from Iran in order to create a land-bridge to Nakhchivan, and a claim that this proved that Turkey has had a long-term malevolent intent towards the Armenian state. I can imagine that stuff being included in the sound-bite-filled pamphlets that Armenians distribute to non-Armenians in an attempt to garnish support for this or that cause. The same pamphlets include things like the fake Hitler quote, the probably-fake Andonian telegraphs, etc. Those lies are so easily disproved that the entire message is called into question, and the entire cause is damaged.

A lot of Armenians have ideas about Armenian history that have little or no basis in fact, the sort of ideas that make neutral observers cringe with embarrassement and want to distance themselves from anything to do with Armenians. This is the core reason why non-Armenians must have little faith in Armenian historiography. And things are getting worse as each year passes.

During the Soviet period, Soviet history was of course heavily manipulated, but in general most of what was before the Soviet period was written about accurately, and Armenian historians had a desire to follow best practices - even if they were often not allowed to.

Since the end of the Soviet era, there are a growing number of extreme nationalists in Armenia and fanatics amongst the diaspora who try to use history as a tool to further their particular ideologies. Of course things are not (yet) as bad as Turkish historiography, and still very far removed from the blatant lies produced by Azerbaijan. However, unless the Armenian intelligentsia start to stand up to the sort of bigots who have filled this thread with their nonsense, Armenian historiography will be ranked below even that of Turkey (where things are improving, not going backwards). Is the Armenian intelligentsia limited to Ara Baliozoian with his mannered, insular, often fey and weasely tricky writings? Turkey doesn't need truths to be known or lies to be discredited for it to survive - but Armenia's very survival may rest on certain truths being widely and internationally known.

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

No this is not the case. Still I am sorry but the maps do not have any value if you (we) do not know who draw it

Sorry, for some reason I thought you were Turkish. But your attitudes towards (and suspicions of) cartography seem "oriental".