Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

[burjuin]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Defense Army of the Nagorno-Karabakh Republic.

[haydavid]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

I have watched the Armenian community and US politics for decades too. It must be that we are leaving in diffrent worlds. Back in 1980 nobody in america knew who were Armenians, where was Armenia and what was Armenian genocide. Now every presidential candidate has to explain his position about it. If the foregn department with it's might has to intervene the house from passing a resolution, that shows how far we have gone. Declared or not (the G word) what's going on in the politics is the matter.
Who is using the genocide issue for what, does not matter too(there is no issue in world that is not being used in politics). The important factor for us is that it is being used, since turks thought long ago that it was forgotten and done with(remember hitler's words in 1940?), otherwise Armenian issue did not even exist in US-turkish politics just couple of decades ago. Who brought it up on the table in your opinion?
Armenian lobby did not even exist 20 yrs ago, now it is getting more powerfull with each year. I am very happy that it is considered powerfull in par with xxxish lobby. It is just a matter of perspective.

Are you trying to say that diaspora is not helping Armenia? What is the Armenian national fund? What has it done so far?
As I say for you the cup is half empty... for me it is half full.. The national inadequacy I am talking about is the denial of the reality however dissapointing or inadequate they may be for someone.
I am not denying many problems, nor I am saying that everything is nice and dandy.
But I say "good job" for whatever is accomplished by our lobby and diaspora in general.

It was not only because of our lobby that we became more known by the americans but also because of Asala , the medias who were larger and larger , the fact that Armenians were very much in this world , the war against azerbaijan , ...

But for me our diaspora isn't doing good job , it should give all its energy not to make the Americans say the g-word , but to help and make a better Armenia , to help the hungry people there , the syrians who can't have even a house , ...

but lets not derive the thread

[Etchmiadzin]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Who really remembers Asala today except Armenians and turks. The word "Armenians" in the west is not a synonym for terrorists i bet if you asked people to mention terrorist acts in western europe they would say IRA and maybe some Basques burning trash cans which is a good thing we dont want to be known as terrorists.

And if Asala or anything similar would be active today wouldnt that ruin a lot both for the genocide recognition and the Nagorno Karabakh what good could come from it.

[Artashes]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

I have watched the Armenian community and US politics for decades too. It must be that we are leaving in diffrent worlds. Back in 1980 nobody in america knew who were Armenians, where was Armenia and what was Armenian genocide. Now every presidential candidate has to explain his position about it. If the foregn department with it's might has to intervene the house from passing a resolution, that shows how far we have gone. Declared or not (the G word) what's going on in the politics is the matter.
Who is using the genocide issue for what, does not matter too(there is no issue in world that is not being used in politics). The important factor for us is that it is being used, since turks thought long ago that it was forgotten and done with(remember hitler's words in 1940?), otherwise Armenian issue did not even exist in US-turkish politics just couple of decades ago. Who brought it up on the table in your opinion?
Armenian lobby did not even exist 20 yrs ago, now it is getting more powerfull with each year. I am very happy that it is considered powerfull in par with xxxish lobby. It is just a matter of perspective.

Are you trying to say that diaspora is not helping Armenia? What is the Armenian national fund? What has it done so far?
As I say for you the cup is half empty... for me it is half full.. The national inadequacy I am talking about is the denial of the reality however dissapointing or inadequate they may be for someone.
I am not denying many problems, nor I am saying that everything is nice and dandy.
But I say "good job" for whatever is accomplished by our lobby and diaspora in general.

Unbelievable, I think your the first person to thank the diaspora that I've heard on this forum.
Thank you Hakob.
I said in a previous post --- the fact that the GENOCIDE of my emmediatly family(AND) many others is even on the table is a miracle.
To think that my family got to America and what? Emmediatly became millionaires and were laser beam focused on all the problems and how to address them in a national and world wide sense??
Haydavid, my opinion is you would be a worthless fundraiser or motivator.
I pick Hakob. Just my opinion.
We --- ALL --- HAVE --- to make a sacrifice. It's unfortunate and heartbreaking. I can't see any way out of that.
We need to help the Nation for sure and we have to pursue the genocide for sure!
The dead are not to be forgotten or diminished for the sake of the living . We have to do both.
It's tough but we have no --- NO --- alternative.
My family got here with nothing but horrifying grief after a strange and torturously convoluted journey.
And you(haydavid) are telling the they haven't done enough?
I thought this forum was us coming together trying to figure out how to do the impossible.
I didn't expect to be talking about gay ?rights? Or have anyone telling my family they are a bunch of phuk ups.
Hakob, thank you again. I'm trying to think of something(anything) right now and I'm going to continue for the rest of my life.
I regret I haven't lived up to your expectation --- no I take that back, I don't give a phuck haydavid.
Again so I make this abundantly clear --- I agree with Hakob and disagree with the others.
Artashes

[haydavid]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

I don't say they haven't done enough , they have done everything that they could but sometimes they made wrong choices ( what naturally can happen )

But what I say is that we should now ( or after 2015 ) focus not anymore on the Genocide 100% but also on Armenia and the situation NOW. Sure , the genocide is a big part of our history and need to get justice but put that much money , energy and time into it will probably not change that much . Don't forget it doesn't lay in our hands if America will say or not the g-word but in America itself and in the azeri/turkish money . We should more focus on what is happening now and the solutions to help Armenia and get away with this corrupt governoment .
My ancestors where themself survivor of the genocide , and I do myself all I can to inform people about it but I think that our main goal should be the future of Armenia and help the people there and it should start with opening the border with Turkey( what again does not really lies in our hands) , find a definitive solution ( hopefully not military ) for the Karabakh conflict , solve the governoment problem and stop all that migration from Armenia .

[Hakob]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

It was not only because of our lobby that we became more known by the americans but also because of Asala , the medias who were larger and larger , the fact that Armenians were very much in this world , the war against azerbaijan , ...

But for me our diaspora isn't doing good job , it should give all its energy not to make the Americans say the g-word , but to help and make a better Armenia , to help the hungry people there , the syrians who can't have even a house , ...

but lets not derive the thread

Asala was born from diaspora. Howcome we with Asala, were not treated like palestinians with PLO or hamas?
I remember in 1989 when one diasporan leader (Shahinyan) said roughly this " To bring a world attention to our issue we've created our secret army and conducted worldwide operations. Now we must proceed with next step of the plan. We must unite in strong structures and political force to further advance our question in world governments. Also it is very important that we do this in lew of recent developments in Soviet Armenia".
Diaspora has gone tru lot of pains. Victories and dissapointments. But I think that wev'e gone a long way and done a lot. As a regular contributor I am satisfied with results both from diaspora and Armenia. They are as good as we are as individuals. And we have changed a lot too.
Just the idea of unified, free Armenia and nation was like a foreign language to all Armenians only 30 yrs ago. In past years that unification process has grown stronger and stronger. Look at the list of contributers and the sum. Look at the learning and teaching process going on between Armenia and HER diaspora.
Anyway brothers I will stop posting on this subject now. I will just beg of you to soften up yourselfs in criticisms of either one. But don't be modest in your arguments with facts and solutions.

[Artashes]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

I don't say they haven't done enough , they have done everything that they could but sometimes they made wrong choices ( what naturally can happen )

But what I say is that we should now ( or after 2015 ) focus not anymore on the Genocide 100% but also on Armenia and the situation NOW. Sure , the genocide is a big part of our history and need to get justice but put that much money , energy and time into it will probably not change that much . Don't forget it doesn't lay in our hands if America will say or not the g-word but in America itself and in the azeri/turkish money . We should more focus on what is happening now and the solutions to help Armenia and get away with this corrupt governoment .
My ancestors where themself survivor of the genocide , and I do myself all I can to inform people about it but I think that our main goal should be the future of Armenia and help the people there and it should start with opening the border with Turkey( what again does not really lies in our hands) , find a definitive solution ( hopefully not military ) for the Karabakh conflict , solve the governoment problem and stop all that migration from Armenia .

Yes, now I recall the conversation from some time ago between you, Hrai,myself,etc.
You and I are diametrically opposed on opinion about opening the border with the fraudulent a$sholes.
I haven't changed.
I do not talk to schuck and jive
I do not walk down the road one step with conniving liers
I do not deal with murderers unless I'm hunting them down
I do not take money from them
I do not give succor or support to them
------------------------ they are FRAUDS ------------------------
You do not need to address me on that any more
You can appeal to anyone who will tolerate your appeal ---- I WILL NOT ---- PERIOD.
Artashes

[burjuin]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Defense Army of the Nagorno-Karabakh Republic.

[burjuin]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

[Odysseus]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Nah the power of the Armenian lobby is nothing. Both the USA and Israel do not want the Turk to be too powerful so they can have control over it. The Armenian issue is simply a tool in their pocket to use at their convenience and nothing more. The things you credit to the Armenian lobby are not deserved. Overestimating your own strength is the most dangerous mistake you can make.

QFT! Armenians are just a card they can use once Turkey gets a bit unruly.