Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

[Tigranakert]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

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Dear brother, I am proud you fiercely try to defend our brave soldiers, without them there wouldn't be an Armenia ofcourse and I understand your good intentions, apres! I just say, that Russia supported us materially (and not only I, but also high-ranking Armenian generals and the whole world knows this, but you unfortunately missed it somehow).

This, because we are discussing the Russian-Armenian relations (and the definitions of what an ally is, what an ally does), if you read the posts above you would understand that it is not my point to denigrate Armenians soldiers whatsoever.

Don't get mad if I also say Armenians get Russian weaponry for discount prices and even receive some parts free, until this day... I am sorry for this.

I am also sorry that Russia is going to help Armenia to build (and provide with the latest technology) a new nuclear reactor, of which a minimum 20% will be financed by them.

[KarotheGreat]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

I let Mr. Medvedev to know about your argument and use it whenever needed.

FYI: Russia itself is taking part in NATO exercises. As refers to Georgia Russians already have done with them what they wanted; and after that they don't consider Georgia as an enemy; please read Medvedevs statements on that.

See you in September 2010.

Search for Russia being an participant and nothing was found. So give a source or stop the BS.
It has been two years since the war ended and the two countries still have no relations with each other, the only reason the border is opened is because of Armenia and the diplomatic role they played in it. And Russia is still supporting South-Ossetia and Abkhazia. As long as Russia does this and Georgia is a Western puppet state. They will be enemies, and Armenian president visit him. And they are still at war with Russia, no peace fire has been signed between the two only a cease fire what does this remind you of.

We can not blame Russia looking after it's own interests while Armenia is doing the same thing. It's cooperating with NATO and economically it's trying to grow closer to the EU. While we are doing this Russia is trying to do the same. As long as their relation with other states doesn't hurt Armenia I don't care.

@ArmeniaR1

Russia’s deliveries of weapons to Armenia in 1993-1996 should be noted, in particular, since,
by both their scale (assessed as being worth a total of one billion dollars) and their political
significance, there has been nothing like them in the recent history of Russia. These arms
transfers were intended to strengthen Armenia’s position in Karabakh against Azerbaijan.

http://www.acpr.org.il/pp/pp143-Wolfson-E.pdf

go to page 4

BACKGROUND: On January 6, Azerbaijani media outlets reported that Russian defense officials transferred weapons and other military hardware worth US$ 800 million to Armenia in 2008. The evidence consisted of a document containing the signature of a Russian defense official and a detailed list of the transferred weapons. As becomes clear from the document, the weapons used to belong to a Russian military bases in Georgia, which was later withdrawn in accordance with OSCE requirements and relocated to Armenia. At that time, Russian political and military officials responded to Azerbaijani concerns about the relocation by stating that the weapons and other military equipment in the military base would remain the property of the Russian Federation, and would not be transferred to Armenia. “Russia promised Azerbaijan that the weapons would not be given to Armenia,” says political analyst Rasim Musabekov.

Here's an other but now in 2008

http://www.cacianalyst.org/?q=node/5021

Armenia Azerbaijan Weapons Charge Exchange Escalates

TBILISI (Reuter) – Azerbaijan and Armenia accused each other on Tuesday of amassing weapons along a cease-fire line separating them and said the build-up could ignite new fighting over disputed territory after a three-year truce.

Azeri Foreign Minister Hasan Hasanov told parliament in Baku that Armenia had obtained missile systems capable of carrying out a nuclear attack on his country.

"These rockets have a radius of 190 miles and can be equipped with nuclear warheads," he told deputies. He did not name the missile systems.

An Azeri Defense Ministry official claimed the rockets were shipped to Armenia from Russia during the last two years–and that they had a long enough range to hit the capital Baku.

A Russian cabinet minister said last month that heavy armor–including tanks and combat vehicles– had been "illegally" supplied to Armenia in 1994-96.

Deputy Security Minister Galip Haligov said Yerevan had also taken delivery of 1,000 "Strela" shoulder-mounted–anti-aircraft systems from Russia. The Strela is a Russian-made version of the US-made "Stinger."

"These new weapon deliveries could lead to the resumption of hostilities and lead to the destabilization of the situation in the Transcaucasus," said Hasanov.

Armenian Deputy Foreign Minister Vardan Oskanian countered by saying Azerbaijan was staging a build-up of arms along the tense border between the two countries.

He urged "increased contacts" with Azerbaijan "so that tension does not grow into violations of the truce."

Peace talks–mediated by Russia and the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe– are deadlocked and the prospects for a settlement seem as remote as ever.

Aman Tuliyev–Russian Minister for Cooperation with Countries of the Commonwealth of Independent States–said last month that 84 T-72 tanks and 50 infantry combat vehicles had been transferred from Russia to Armenia between 1994-96.

Armenia denies having received the weapons.

"Taking this into consideration–the Foreign Minister of Armenia expresses his deep regret that Azerbaijan has not been able to resist the temptation of utilizing speculation in pursuit of its own political gains. The Foreign Ministry of Armenia is concerned with Azerbaijan’s behavior and is inclined to consider this recent approach as Azerbaijan’s intention to deviate from peaceful negotiations and begin a new military offensive," an Armenian Foreign Ministry statement asserted Monday.

"The Foreign Ministry of Armenia reports that since the cease-fire was established in Karabakh–Azerbaijan has been consistently violating the spirit of that cease-fire agreement–United Nations Security Council resolutions and decisions by the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe," the statement continued.

Azerbaijan has loudly criticized the alleged shipmen’s as a violation of the cease-fire and says they destroy Russia’s credibility as a mediator in the peace negotiations.

Haligov said the flow of arms from Russia–which included the Strela rockets–was continuing. He said they were being shipped from Russia across the Caspian Sea and through Iran–before going over land to Armenia.

Spokesmen for Azeri President Gaidar Aliyev and his Armenian counterpart Levon Ter-Petrosyan said the two leaders held a rare telephone conversation on Monday evening and that both pledged to continue to seek a peaceful settlement on Nagorno-Karabakh.

The two leaders also discussed the intolerability of resuming military operations and agreed to refrain from negative propaganda which could create tension and mutual mistrust. Both Presidents considered the upcoming conflict resolution within Minsk Group tri-chairmanship as very important.

http://asbarez.com/33135/armenia-azerbaijan-weapons-charge-exchange-escalates/

I hope this is enough proof That Russia provided Armenia with guns during the war and still does and will keep doing this in the future.

[gegev]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Hahahahaha, sorry to say, but I can't discuss something with a person who doesn't even know the simple, basic facts. I think we received two to ten bullets, one T-72 tank without wheels and three AK-47's, don't you?
No seriously, you have to do a lot of homework before discussing these topics here.

All the Arthakh war participants, I met with, claim they didn’t get weapons from Russia, at most they bought arms from corrupt Russian officers, we repaired the Azeri seized-damaged tanks, as ArmeniaR1 says/shows, there was no official arms supply from Russian side during the war. Armenian TV channels for years claim the same, but you still want to promote Russia in that. We had a great shortage of arms, as opposed to Azeries.

You are very mature in your biased attitude. Regardless of the truthfulness of our arguments your intention is clear; to defend Russia in everything.

There’s no sense to argue with you. You know beforehand what to say in favor of Russia.

[Tigranakert]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

All the Arthakh war participants, I met with, claim they didn’t get weapons from Russia, at most they bought arms from corrupt Russian officers, there was no official arms supply from Russian side during the war. Armenian TV channels for years claim the same, but you still want to promote Russia in that. We had a great shortage of arms, as opposed to Azeries.

You are very mature in your biased attitude. Regardless of the truthfulness of our arguments your intention is clear; to defend Russia in everything.

There’s no sense to argue with you. You know beforehand what to say in favor of Russia.

It is true that in the beginning we did not get Russian support, but near the end of the war Russia supplied us with weapons by which we could SUSTAIN our victory. This is something everyone acknowledges and needs no further discussion.

Also, it's a fact they protected our borders during the war and threatened Turkey with complete destruction should they set one step into the territory of Armenia.

The discussion is not about the capability of Armenian soldiers, as we showed how brave we are even though outnumbered and in lack of weaponry.

But how much you hate it, it remains a fact Russia supports us military, politically, economically, culturally, delivers us with weapons at discount prices, protects our borders and let's ethnic Armenians use the S-300 / MiG airplanes on the territory of Armenia (and for those who love it, acknowledges the Armenian Genocide).

The military alliance with Russia and, in particular, the presence of Russian troops on Armenian soil has been a key element of Armenia’s national security doctrine since independence. Armenia has been entitled to receiving Russian weapons at cut-down prices or even free of charge also because of its membership in the CSTO.

Again, Russia is Armenia's closest ally (in realistic terms).

[KarotheGreat]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

All the Arthakh war participants, I met with, claim they didn’t get weapons from Russia, at most they bought arms from corrupt Russian officers, we repaired the Azeri seized tanks, as ArmeniaR1 says, there was no official arms supply from Russian side during the war. Armenian TV channels for years claim the same, but you still want to promote Russia in that. We had a great shortage of arms, as opposed to Azeries.

You are very mature in your biased attitude. Regardless of the truthfulness of our arguments your intention is clear; to defend Russia in everything.

There’s no sense to argue with you. You know beforehand what to say in favor of Russia.

The struggle over Nagorno-Karabakh escalated after both Armenia and Azerbaijan attained independence from the Soviet Union in 1991. In the post-Soviet power vacuum, military action between Azerbaijan and Armenia was heavily influenced by the Russian military. Extensive Russian military support was exposed by the Head of the Standing Commission of the Russian Duma, General Lev Rokhlin, who was subsequently allegedly killed by his wife in unknown circumstances. He had claimed that munitions (worth one billion US dollars) had been illegally transferred to Armenia between 1992 and 1996.[79] According to Armenian news agency Noyan Tapan, Rokhlin openly lobbied for the interests of Azerbaijan [2]. According to The Washington Times, Western intelligence sources said that the weapons played a crucial role in Armenia's seizure of large areas of Azerbaijan. Other Western sources dispute that assessment, due to the fact that Russia continued to provide military support to Azerbaijan, as well, throughout the military conflict.[80] Russian Minister of Defense Igor Rodionov in his letter to Aman Tuleyev, Minister of cooperation with CIS countries, said that a Defense Ministry commission had determined that a large quantity of Russian weapons, including 84 T-72 tanks and 50 armored personnel carriers, were illegally transferred to Armenia between 1994 and 96, after the ceasefire, for free and without authorization by the Russian government.[81] The The Washington Times article suggested that Russia's military support for Armenia was aimed to force "pro-Western Azerbaijan and its strategic oil reserves into Russia's orbit".[82] Armenia has officially denied any such weapons delivery.[79]

This is from wiki, but when you put this together with the other sources I posted you get the image where Armenia at the end of the war has gotten a lot of free weapons from Russia, that helped end and win the war and on top of that keep the Azeris from attacking.

We all know that it was the Armenians that did the fighting, no person here is denying that. But it's stupid to say that Russia didn't help Armenia even if we leave the weapons out of it. It saved Armenia proper in 1993. And why don't you mention that?

And Gegev why is every post you make about Russia, anti-Russian? Why can't you for once saying something positive?

And now look at the red part: how many high ranking officers did you speak? I don't see why a ordinary soldiers would know where their weapons are coming from and who is the one that is delivering them.

Armenia Armed by Russia for battles with Azerbaijan Scandal compared to Iran-Contra

Russia secretly has shipped more than $1 billion worth of arms to Armenia,
apparently to be used against - pro-Western Azerbaijan and - to force the
Azeris -and their strategic oil reserves into Russia's orbit.

Aman Tuleyev, minister for relations with the Commonwealth of Independent
States, has acknowledged that Moscow supplied Armenia with 84 T-72 main
battle tanks, 72 heavy howitzers, 24 Scud missiles with eight launchers,
50 armored personnel carriers and millions of rounds of ammunition.

Lev Rokhlin, the chairman of the Defense Committee of the Duma, the lower
House of the Russian parliament, told a closed Duma session April 2 that
Moscow had -shipped $1 billion worth of weapons to the tough, nationalist
government of President Levon Ter-Petrosian in Yerevan. His report was
similar to Mr. Tuleyev's acknowledgment.

Between 1992 and early 1994, when the conflict was at its height, Russian
heavy transport aircraft were said to have ferried 1,300 tons of
ammunition across the Caucasus to the Armenian capital. Most of the tanks
were flown in aboard giant Antonov planes from the city of Akhtubinsk.

The Azeris say Russia also supplied 1,000 hand-fired Strela-2 and Strela-3
anti-aircraft missiles, which were moved by ship across The Caspian Sea,
then sent over land through Iran to Armenia. Iran has denied playing any
role.

Western intelligence sources said The weapons played a crucial role in
Armenia's, seizure of large areas of Azerbaijan, which created a million
refugees, more than from any other conflict in Europe since World War II.
Although Russia's military support for Armenia in its long conflict with
Azerbaijan has been well-known, the extent of the arms transfers came as a
surprise.

Responding to the revelations, Russian President Boris Yeltsin ordered a
major government probe Saturday that could implicate his longtime defense
minister, Marshal Pavel Grachev who was fired last spring.

Russian military prosecutors are considering calling Marshal Grachev in
for questioning over the scandal, which has been compared to The
Iran-Contra affair.

The- chairman of the Azeri parliament, Murtuz Alesketov, said Saturday the
arms shipments could destabilize the Caucasus. "If these arms are not
returned, this could lead to a new large-scale war in the region" he said
at parliamentary hearings in Baku.

Since the collapse of the Soviet Union at the end of 1991, Shi'ite Muslim
Azerbaijan has eagerly courted American oil companies to help it develop
the immense oil and gas reserves of the Caspian Sea, estimated as second
in size and value only to those in the Persian Gulf.

Russia has responded by backing Orthodox Christian Armenia, its historic
ally.

On March 29, shortly after Mr. Yeltsin's Helsinki summit with President
Clinton, the Russian leader finalized a treaty of friendship and strategic
partnership with Mr. Ter-Petrosian.

The move came after Mr. - Ter-Petrosian alarmed Azerbaijan by appointing
The hard-line leader of ethnic Armenian Nagorno-Karabakh, a region of
Azerbajjan, as prime minister of Armenia, a move widely regarded as paving
the way for a renewed attack on Azerbaijan.

There are at least 20,000 Russian 4th Army troops in Armenia concentrated
around three major bases.

Ivan Rybkin, head of Russia's Security Council, said after a meeting in
Moscow with Mr. Ter-Petrosian on March 27 that the new bilateral treaty
would have a "military component", the Moscow newspaper Nezavisimaya
Gazeta reported March 28.

Some Moscow analysts believe that Defense Minister Igor Rodionov and his
supporters leaked details of the arms deals now to prevent Mr. Yeltsin
from bringing back Marshal Grachev as chief military inspector at the
Defense Ministry, the independent Moscow newspaper Segodnya said.

Link: http://www.geocities.com/baguirov/arms1.htm

And we add this little piece found and posted by Armenian four years ago.

[UrMistake]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Dude one thing slips from you the delivered weapons are made first from SOVIET bases,
Weapons could not come from Russia cause there were no Russia there were SOVIET UNION which were against NK war and pro azeri.

Weapon delivery made when it came political change in Armenia with the new emerge state Russia ,
later at the end of the War when it where all clear that Armenian are winning,
hence russia took the opportunity for later political decision with local powers.

You are talking USA helping Israel cause of the influence of the later to them,do you realize that same thing is going on in russia but in lesser scale?

[Joseph]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Hahahahaha, sorry to say, but I can't discuss something with a person who doesn't even know the simple, basic facts. I think we received two to ten bullets, one T-72 tank without wheels and three AK-47's, don't you?

No seriously, you have to do a lot of homework before discussing these topics here.

Let's not forget General Grachev who did much to arm Armenia

[Eddo211]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Who won the famous Arthakh war?

According to Turks, Azeris, and their supporters from other countries posting on Websites it was Russians who fought and won the war.
Also they are capitalizing big on this latest increase in the Russian presence in Armenia spreading propaganda on how Russians will fight the Armenian wars while Armenian fighters run and hide behind the Russians, like in Artsakh.........keeping me very busy and on defensive.

Originally Posted by ArmeniaR1
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X2

[Davo88]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Eddo211, this only means that Azeris don't know what an alliance is, which further shows their backwardness and proves their inability to run their state. And what are they going to hide behind? Oil gushing from broken pipelines?

And in what forums do you post?

[gegev]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

According to Turks, Azeris, and their supporters from other countries posting on Websites it was Russians who fought and won the war.
Also they are capitalizing big on this latest increase in the Russian presence in Armenia spreading propaganda on how Russians will fight the Armenian wars while Armenian fighters run and hide behind the Russians, like in Artsakh.........keeping me very busy and on defensive.

X2

Hi Eddo!
In what forums do you post?