Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

[Vrej1915]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

[QUOTE=gokorik;324117]

Dear,
I'm afraid, I have seen more war than you will ever see in your life, at least I hope so for our nation.
There is no village or valley from Omar to Horatiz, and Mintchevan I have not set foot on.
I think I have a very good idea, wich type and quality of armament appeared, on wich side, and thanks to whom, at its precise date.
I know equally, how, and thanks to wich kind of patriotism our unknown heroes managed to provide arms, from all over ex-USSR, and at wich price/sacrifice they were acquired.
I remember pretty well the first AK47, the first Grad, the first T55/72, the first Su-25/Mig21/Mig 25, Mi24, the first ...., and on wich side they appeared.
I remember to well 12 Jun 1992...
I do know what life was in the black, frozing and unsecure badvals of Stepanakert's law quality soviet buildings, under cluster bombs dropped by russian and ukrainian pilots... and I do remember the ghosty streets of Yerevan, with people burning their soviet encyclopedias...
Thank you for your arrogant ignorance.

Concerning Ciller's threat/Shaposhnikov's WWIII , I'm afraid you need more information on that particular episode. And you need to look a little more than Wikipedia, Tom de Wall and Tomy Goltz's versions.

Unfortunately for us, (and for virtually all of Russia's allies during last 3 centuries), Russia's unreliability is so redondant, from V.Piotr to Medvedev, that this is not even a matter of debate.
Just learn history.

Without going too far away, just explain the bigottery of Medvedev, the Gasman, corrupted to the bones, wishing to offer Artsakh, on a silver plate, for the sake of a flirt with the turks, he knew by advance, had no futur....
An ally of the sort, is the best someone can wish to its worst enemy.

Nevertheless, this is our strategic Ally, called Russia, and we have to cope with it.
And it is not by a mix of childish propaganda/blind love and wishful thinking that you will avoid the repetition of the bad surprises of history.

[Vrej1915]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Vrej the very same facts that you point out prove the point i am making which is that we need russia way more then it needs us. It can and will abandon us if it feels it is in its interest and that is why we must strengthen our influence in russia.

1- Who said we do not need? Of course we need, just as much as we need in the US, France and China....
2- You perfectly confirm the unreliability of Russia, we agree on that.
3- Russia needs us as much, if not more than we need it, unless you think that loosing Black sea access and North Kavkaz is not a matter for Russia.
4- I never said that the US, UK or France were more reliable. Politics is the equilibrium between all kind of unreliable and betrayal prone partners...
5- Before making decisions, you need to have the good diagnosis, for wich, you need to see facts, not wishful thinking and unconditinal love..
6- The bad management of our internal political life, the fakots of LTP, the corruption, etc, is a totally other matter, and our own sins and responsability: we might have done much, much better, with same means, if patriotic and inspired people were on the command posts... but once again, this has nothing to do with Russia/US/EU...

[Vrej1915]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

[QUOTE=gokorik;324117]
remember the S-300....
You are right about the S-300 sale to Azerbaijan, but I believe the Russians made the sale with the knowledge that Armenia would be supplied with the Iskander missile. This missile CAN disable the S-300 PMU2. In the end Azerbaijan wastes 300 million dollars, which could have been spent on buying more tanks, aircraft and artillery etc, Armenia still has the ability to utilize it's air force and missile forces, and Russia gets to sell it's weapons to both sides.




This is the perfect, un necessary advocacy excusing Russia's irresponsible, and selfish acts.
In same mode, you will excuse, next sale of Iskender to Baku....

The problem is not the sale of such equipment to azerbaijan, the problem is the seller, wich is supposed to be our strategic ally.... (We are not talking about T72, BTRs here, this is balance changing factor, and was a kind of gift, by Medvedev, to compansate its inability to offer Artsakh's lowlands, to its turkish partners. He failed to deliver the promises of oil/gasman he made, and did this betrayal, to compensate the turks, and punish us, pocketting millons on the way)
It is similar, to the US selling Patriots to Iran, and Israelis explaining the 'buisness as usual' in it...

Plus, your assesment of S-300, and the abilities of our tiny if not non existant air force is irrelevant.
To counter the presence of 2 S-300 batteries, we need at least 3/4 squadrons of Mig 29, Su 27, or equivalent versatile fighter/bombers....

[gokorik]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

[QUOTE=Vrej1915;324119]

Dear,
I'm afraid, I have seen more war than you will ever see in your life, at least I hope so for our nation.
There is no village or valley from Omar to Horatiz, and Mintchevan I have not set foot on.

Did you go as a journalist or did you serve. If you served, thank you for your service and sacrifice.

I think I have a very good idea, wich type and quality of armament appeared, on wich side, and thanks to whom, at its precise date.
I know equally, how, and thanks to wich kind of patriotism our unknown heroes managed to provide arms, from all over ex-USSR, and at wich price/sacrifice they were acquired.
I remember pretty well the first AK47, the first Grad, the first T55/72, the first Su-25/Mig21/Mig 25, Mi24, the first ...., and on wich side they appeared.

I never doubted your knowledge of the military balance at the time.

Concerning Ciller's threat/Shaposhnikov's WWIII , I'm afraid you need more information on that particular episode. And you need to look a little more than Wikipedia, Tom de Wall and Tomy Goltz's versions.

That doesn't change the fact that Turkey mobilized on our boarder on a massive level, and it doesn't change the fact that Russian countered the move.

Unfortunately for us, (and for virtually all of Russia's allies during last 3 centuries), Russia's unreliability is so redondant, from V.Piotr to Medvedev, that this is not even a matter of debate. Just learn history, before talking.

Yes, it is a fact that Russia has betrayed us in the past but you speak as if another country has done better for us than Russia.

Nevertheless, this is our strategic Ally, called Russia, and we have to cope with it.
And it is not by a mix of childish propaganda/blind love and wishful thinking that you will avoid the repetition of the bad surprises of history.

Childish propaganda/blind love? What are you talking about?
How are you suggesting we should avoid the possibility of a bad surprise happening again?

[gokorik]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

[QUOTE=Vrej1915;324121]

This is the perfect, un necessary advocacy excusing Russia's irresponsible, and selfish acts.
In same mode, you will excuse, next sale of Iskender to Baku....

I'm trying to express my theory, not justify the sale. Russia will never sell the Iskander to Azerbiajn

The problem is not the sale of such equipment to azerbaijan, the problem is the seller, wich is supposed to be our strategic ally....

I said i agree with you on how it is illogical. I was explaining my theory.

We are not talking about T72, BTRs here, this is balance changing factor, and was a kind of gift, by Medvedev, to compansate its inability to offer Artsakh's lowlands, to its turkish partners. He failed to deliver the promises of oil/gasman he made, and did this betrayal, to compensate the turks, and punish us, pocketting millons on the way)
It is similar, to the US selling Patriots to Iran, and Israelis explaining the 'buisness as usual' in it...

The situation is in no way similar.

Plus, your assesment of S-300, and the abilities of our tiny if not non existant air force is irrelevant.
To counter the presence of 2 S-300 batteries, we need at least 3/4 squadrons of Mig 29, Su 27, or equivalent versatile fighter/bombers....

The amount of money it would take to build up, and train a force that large is huge. If you used the Iskanders to engage the radars it would cost much less and there would be a much higher chance of a mission success. Also you would have to risk any lives.

[Vrej1915]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

[QUOTE=gokorik;324123]

1- On that specific episode, not only Russia deserves credit for intervention. ..
Plus Russia acted, for its national interest. As did the other actors. And this is only normal.
If Armenia was to be invaded in 92/93, today it would be turkish troops that would patrol in Makhatchkala and Astana...

2- I'm suggesting to act as a normal nation, considering every option, at every moment, not a genocide survivors herd, eternally grateful to the supposed protector (s), whatever evil acts it may permit itself... because this kind of 'eternal fidelity' , is the first (not unique) factor promoting russia's betrayals. They xxx us , because they consider, we have no option, but to stay on their side...

[Vrej1915]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

[QUOTE=gokorik;324124]

At the end of the day, fact is that Russia shatered the balance on the ground, and not in its 'ally's' favor.
In place of trying to explain, or find 'excuses', we must at least refrain from 'blind russophilia', the kind of wich is repeated day and night on this forum.
That's all what I'm saying.

[gokorik]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

1- On that specific episode, not only Russia deserves credit for intervention.
Plus Russia acted, for its national interest. As did the other actors. And this is only normal.

I see.

If Armenia was to be invaded in 92/93, today it would be turkish troops that would patrol in Makhatchkala and Astana...

Obviously. Thank God that never happened.

2- I'm suggesting to act as a normal nation, considering every option, at every moment, not a genocide survivors herd, eternally grateful to the supposed protector (s), whatever evil acts it may permit itself... because this kind of 'eternal fidelity' , is the first (not unique) factor promoting russia's betrayals. They xxx us , because they consider, we have no option, but to stay on their side...

I see what you are saying now.

[Eddo211]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

I think the problem here is the failure to communicate or just paranoia in you guys. Nobody suggests to end relations with Russia , and it should be no problem in criticising Russian influence on Armenia in a constructive matter, but everytime you guys go into Russia strong mode.

Haykakan....lets agree that we do not agree on this point. Regardless of the past, you say we must trust Russia because there would be no Armenia without their control, I say that we need Russia (among others) to acheive our full sovereignty in the future, each generation at a time, moving in the positive dirrection of this goal, and not backwards or without being master of your own destiny, sort of speak.

[Tigranakert]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Although I admire both Eddo211 and Vrej1915, as Armenians who actually care about Armenia are in an absolute minority, your views are wrong and you both just don’t seem to get the point.

Some Armenians need to loose that slave mentality....it was Armenian blood that liberated Artsakh, not Russians. People need to stop dishonoring our warriors by siding with our enemies line that Russia does the fighting for Armenia, not Armenians.

Never was there even one mention about Armenians not having spoiled blood to liberate Artsakh, nor that Russia did the fighting for us. Have you been actually reading what has been said?

Most countries in today's world are dependent on others for their national interests and security. Russia is an important ally (so is Armenia to Russia) but to say we owe them our independance or we cant even wipe our own butts without them is to live in past fears and in a victim mentality. LOOSE IT NOW!!
This is not how we liberated Artsakh and this is not the mentlity on how we protect it now. You must believe in yourself or you will always fail and be controlled.

Russia’s support to Armenia is vital, as Armenia is on the brinck of extinction, probably that’s something you missed the last centuries. Have you been realizing that our nation has been slaughtered, the genocide has been continuing and Armenia is now a tiny-resource less landlocked state? It is obvious that without Armenians, Armenia would not exist today, as without Armenians, it wouldn’t even be Armenia. It’s obvious Armenians fought in the war, nobody here is suggesting that an ally should fight our wars, everybody knows that it were brave Armenian soldiers. Yes, indeed, after the collapse of the Soviet Union, it were tough years, and we managed to halt the Azeris, but I again state, and this is just a fact only the ignorant don’t seem to understand, without Russia, Armenia could not keep it’s victory, without Russia, Turkey and Azerbaijan would have overrun Armenia a long time ago. Instead of being happy of this fact, and try to make use of it, you somehow have an infiority complex suggesting it’s a bad thing if we acknowledge the fact.

You guys talk about unity?....Russia and US don't want Armenian unity.

Total, total nonsense. Actually, I have been thinking about this for a long time now. In the United States of America, the assimilation rate (culturally and especially BRAINWISE) is amazing. Armenians in the US are a lost bunch, most of them being brainwashed, forgetting their culture and language, and actually from young age being promoted to the “multi-cultural” life, in which (interracial) money, sex, and party is the most important part. The US actively supports organizations who work to divide and separate Armenians.

In Russia, Armenians have enormous rights, they are not being brainwashed from their early stage into being “Russian?”, Armenians are over-represented in all spheres of life in Russia, be it in the military, economy, politics, and media, and even all those high-ranking Armenians have strong ties with the Armenian culture and Armenian nation. Russia doesn’t bother, no, they even support those ties. Stating that Russia is against Armenian unity is just utter bullxxxx. I don’t even know how you guys end up with nonsense statements like these, and it’s unfortunate for our discussion.

Generally, the power of the state is not defined through its territory. The state should be modern, secure and prosperous. The Armenian people are able to achieve their goals. And they will if they believe in it"

This is the limit. Generally, the power is not defined through its territory? You don’t seem to understand even the basic facts, yet you think you have a clear knowledge of the geopolitical situation Armenia is in now? It’s just unbelievable. Territory is one of THE most important things for the power of a state. Also, the territory surrounded the nation is of utmost importance. Being a small state in Western Europe, one is still able to be prosperous having neighbors who do not want to slaughter them to death, but in Armenia’s situation, TERRITORY IS OF UTMOST IMPORTANCE. One of the greatest dangers of Armenia, which is actually hindering us in many ways, is our landlocked status, no connection to the outer world/sea. I shouldn’t be explaining this to you?

Armenia has earned its independence. Getting Russian weapons is no different than Turkey getting US/Israeli weapons, just because its at lowered price doesn't change that fact. Russian base in Armenia is not there strickly to deter Turkey (a NATO member) from invading Armenia. Just like we don't want Turkey overwelming Armenia, Russia and Iran don't want Turkey's expansion in the region, military base or not. The facts that you mention are your facts, not everyones. Nobody here is underestimating the Turks, but you seem to underestimate the Azeris.....you say one victory against Turks, I count three. Sarikamish, Sartarabad, Artsakh.

The facts that are important to Armenians, the self-interest part of our nation, which is logical and we have to take into consideration, is that the Russian military base is our life-line. The Russian military alliance is our life line, you don’t have to be afraid to acknowledge that, it’s nothing bad, Israel also knows America is it’s lifeline, and the HRJANERS do not have an infiority complex, so they all work and lobby to get the most benefit out of America, because it’s pure about self-interest, no emotions have to come to play. No one is shouting, “are we slaves of America”, “we should be tougher mommy, mommy we should show them they are not the real boss”, “yeah, let’s all be emotional and let’s be brave warriors just like in the Gladiator”. THE ONLY THING THEY THINK OF IS THEIR SELF-INTEREST AND THUS THEY ALL DO EVERYTHING THEY CAN TO GET MAXIMUM ADVANTAGE OF THE SITUATION! I don’t not understand what of my point you impossibly seem to grasp?

The road to Western Armenia is through the East.....and with this old Armenian mentality we will never acheive it. Its been 20 years now with our independence and the new generation needs to drop the old shackles and look to the future rather than hide behind the Russian skirt and stay stagnet forever. Tigranakert makes a good point that we need to inflitrate further into Russian power houses but we should not bow to Russians and put all our faith in them.

Utter ignorance, just utter ignorance. I have not even once promoting hiding behind Russia’s skirt. I have actually been promoting otherwise, to take maximum benefit from the situation, just like the HRJANERS do in the US. The thing I promote is only possible in the Russian Federation, we should NOT stay STAGNET and wait, we should work and cooperate actively to massively increase the power of the Armenian nation, by doing everything we can to improve our nation and lobbying capabilities in the Russian Federation.

Again for the ignorant, THIS DOES NOT MEAN WE SHOULD NOT DEVELOP EXCELLENT RELATIONS WITH THE EUROPEAN UNION! We should, but we should never have the illusion that we can trade our strategic alliance with Russia, with Europe. Instead of Armenians trying to get maximum benefit from our alliance, as the HRJANERS do with the US, Armenians try to work against it, stop it, instead of improve it. It’s just amazingly stupid.

EVEN IF THE AZERIS OPENLY STATE WHAT THEY SEE AS THEIR BIGGEST DANGER, THUS ACTUALLY STATE WHAT ARMENIANS SHOULD BE INTENSYFYING, AND THAT IS THE RUSSIAN-ARMENIAN (MILITARY) ALLIANCE!

Our faith is in our hands.....what we do with it its by our hands.

Our faith is indeed in our hands, and Armenians (the Armenian government and influential elite) should be working into doing everything we can as to make our nation as strong as possible, from the self-interest point of view.

I think the problem here is the failure to communicate or just paranoia in you guys. Nobody suggests to end relations with Russia , and it should be no problem in criticising Russian influence on Armenia in a constructive matter, but everytime you guys go into Russia strong mode.

I know for a fact the failure here is to grasp the understanding of what my point is. Everything you have written did not have even any close relation to what I wrote. You have something stuck in your head, yet you can’t even define it clearly. All your points are very vague and illogical.